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AlektorophobiA
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I always wondered why people over here hate the Wolfenstein Secret maps on Doom II, i don't think that those maps are great or anything, but i think that it was a nice Easter Egg in the game, so i don't think those maps should be taken seriously.

Old Post 11-15-12 03:41 #
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Clonehunter
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I like them, good nostalgia. Though the SS Guards are a pain in numbers, mostly on ammo consumption.

It just gets a tad annoying when the wolf resources are mixed with a lot of Doom textures and thus add to some clashing stuff. Not always, as even the secret levels (Of course) had Doom stuff thrown about them, but I for one never really noticed too much.

Something like that anyways.

I like them, so that's that. Never really saw a negative consensus myself.

Old Post 11-15-12 03:44 #
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Obsidian
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What Clonehunter said. Most people hate seeing SS Nazis and Hitler portraits used in a regular Doom map due to it cheapening the experience. This anger then gets redirected at the maps that originally used these resources. Personally I dug them quite a bit when I first played Doom II.

Old Post 11-15-12 04:01 #
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Evolution
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I hated them. I have never played wolfenstein, which most likely explains why I thought both 31 and 32 were fillers when the team got lazy. They didn't play good at all.

Old Post 11-15-12 05:13 #
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MasterofJKD
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I still like the levels, even though on a map that ur making for doom 2 shouldn't have those textures...that said those 2 maps at the end are secret levels, and were obviously an homage to wolfenstein, personally I like the maps. But those two levels should not be taken seriously and should be looked at in the context of what they were meant to be.

Old Post 11-15-12 05:15 #
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Avoozl
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Clonehunter said:
It just gets a tad annoying when the wolf resources are mixed with a lot of Doom textures and thus add to some clashing stuff.
The text before the maps clearly states it's a part of hell.

Last edited by Avoozl on 11-15-12 at 08:11

Old Post 11-15-12 06:32 #
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hex11
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Boring for me. The maps would have been interesting if they actually used more DOOM engine features instead of trying to replicate Wolf3D so closely. Needed more 45-degree and other odd angles, more height variation, interesting architecture etc.

The Wolf3D theme itself would have functioned quite well as an easter egg, without making the maps so lame (yeah I never liked Wolf3D engine, even back in 1992 when it came out).

Old Post 11-15-12 07:43 #
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Phobus
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AlektorophobiA said:

What is with the hate against the Wolfenstein maps in Doom II?

Well... They're shit.


On the plus side, they do give us the Keen action, which is very handy for some clever map tricks. They also furnish DeHackEd users with loads of frames to steal from the SS Nazi, or other users another hitscanner to reskin and use in levels.

Old Post 11-15-12 09:34 #
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DoomUK
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PSX Doom 2's secret levels were at least consistent with Doom 2*, whether you care for them or not.

*Club Doom less so, but it's still more fitting than copypasted levels from an older game. And being a secret level within a secret level it gets away with being a little incongruous with the rest of the game.

Last edited by DoomUK on 11-15-12 at 10:09

Old Post 11-15-12 10:00 #
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vdgg
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I found the midget Nazis hilarious, I liked the idea (wow! I found a secret exit on MAP15 all by myself).

The problem for me was that they somehow had to recreate the first level from the shareware episode which was very shitty IMO. But then, it was easier to recreate as it had only two monster types, unlike the other maps.

Old Post 11-15-12 10:39 #
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fraggle
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AlektorophobiA said:
I always wondered why people over here hate the Wolfenstein Secret maps on Doom II,
What makes you think that?

Old Post 11-15-12 12:33 #
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ComicMischief
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What?

I'm of the opinion that secret levels should be 'concept levels' of a sort, so MAP31 and MAP32 are way better than E1M9 or E4M9 in my estimation.

Yeah, E2M9 and E3M9 are concept levels; because even "make the two rooms of enemies fight!" or "deja vu, or is it?" are concepts.

Old Post 11-15-12 12:49 #
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myk
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AlektorophobiA said:
people over here
That makes it sound like a majority or a widespread stance. At most, a few people have expressed critiques or dislike about these maps.

Old Post 11-15-12 13:16 #
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AlektorophobiA
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fraggle said:
What makes you think that?

I've read sometimes when people discuss the secret levels on the Doom games over here, the Wolfenstein ones are always bashed, so i was just wondering.

Old Post 11-15-12 13:53 #
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Enjay
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I don't think that most people here do hate those levels.

Old Post 11-15-12 17:43 #
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Impboy4
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I don't hate them at all. Even though I have never played the original Wolf3D game (I played the converted maps from the Doom Depot website). It's a good way to tell the mappers where id took their next step to revolutionize how a first-person shooter is made.

Old Post 11-15-12 17:59 #
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fraggle
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AlektorophobiA said:

I've read sometimes when people discuss the secret levels on the Doom games over here, the Wolfenstein ones are always bashed, so i was just wondering.

I don't recall ever seeing anything like that. Can you provide a link to an example of a thread where that happened?

Old Post 11-15-12 18:05 #
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DoomUK
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Yes, we need the names of these people so we can hunt them down and set fire to them.

Old Post 11-15-12 18:18 #
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hex11
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He didn't say "most", he just said "people", which means "some" (at least two, else it would be "person").

Then again, he may have been comparing the "people over here" (doomworld) to some other group of people, but we can't be sure of that since he didn't specify who they might be (people at Wolf3D forum? people at World of Warcraft forum? people waiting in line at the local KFC?...)

Hell you can't even be sure what most doomworld members think, even if you took a poll. At most only some of the currently active members would participate, so the results would be skewed and wouldn't represent the community as a whole. If you could get a decent percentage of the members to participate, it would be more meaningful, but good luck with that! At this point the most accurate answer may well come from the next fortune cookie you open.

Old Post 11-15-12 18:29 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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The secret maps were just a fun little Easter egg and I have no problem with them. What gets me are the people who, to this day, make Wolfenstein tribute maps in the Doom engine. If you want to do 64x64 or 128x128 blocks, just map for Wolfy and get the original game mechanics while you're at it.

Old Post 11-15-12 19:15 #
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joe-ilya
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they just copied 2 maps and put them in doom with some extra secrets

and easter

i think it would be cooler if it was just they're own secret levels :(

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Old Post 11-15-12 19:28 #
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qoncept
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I like them. As has been said, they were an easter egg and a fun one at that. Going back and playing Wolf3d now isn't a lot of fun, but they picked the two most iconic maps. and they're a fun diversion in the middle of the game. When we play coop we always play both of them.

The game mechanics of Doom are much better than Wolf3d. Playing those 2 levels in Doom is more fun than the originals.

Old Post 11-15-12 19:43 #
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myk
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hex11 said:
He didn't say "most", he just said "people", which means "some" (at least two, else it would be "person").
People needs modifiers or contexts, or it may mean anything from "that guy" to "everybody". For the most part, terms end up insinuating ample meanings if used in general, not specific ones. He used more words, which are qualifiers that make things more explicit. People over here is akin to "regulars", since their belonging to this place defines them. Just go to some town, sit at a bar and say "people over here smell" and see what happens, unless you can show evidence such as sitting near the local drunk and making a subtle gesture in his direction, tipping everyone off that you don't mean them in general.

What really comes out of his original comment is that here (in Doomworld) there's "surprisingly much" of thinking these levels suck. Perhaps from a few very vocal or reiterative people, or from many that titter about it continuously in low voices, but either way as something that generally pervades Doomworld and must be challenged once and for all.

Old Post 11-15-12 20:02 #
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BaronOfStuff
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I like the maps. I really like them.

I don't know exactly what it is about them, but for some reason they're always fun to blast through.

Old Post 11-15-12 21:02 #
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Eris Falling
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BaronOfStuff said:
I like the maps. I really like them.

I don't know exactly what it is about them, but for some reason they're always fun to blast through.



This.
I have to admit; I hate Wolf3D, but the Doom II levels were damn good, and I too don't exactly know what it is.

Old Post 11-15-12 21:07 #
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hex11
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Hey I was just kidding about hating the Wolf3D maps. Take me off the witch hunt list. I'm cool, ya hear? ZIG HAL! ZIG HAL!

Old Post 11-15-12 21:10 #
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BaronOfStuff
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hex11 said:
ZIG HAL! ZIG HAL!


That's so bad it could just about be how 'Sieg Heil' would have sounded in Wolf 3D.

Old Post 11-15-12 21:30 #
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Nevan
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Maybe people will like the levels better if there were Hans Grooses everywhere (or even his sister - people will totally dig that shizz!).

Old Post 11-15-12 21:45 #
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Maes
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BaronOfStuff said:
That's so bad [ZIG HAL] it could just about be how 'Sieg Heil' would have sounded in Wolf 3D.


Actually....

OT, I think the "hatred" for Wolf 3D maps was caused due to early atrocities like King REoL's Wolfen-STEINED and more recent crimes against Doom such as Nazi Auferstehung.

Old Post 11-15-12 22:00 #
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Quasar
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I think the problem with them is that they're the only secret levels in DOOM II. DOOM 1 had serious, playable secrets, but DOOM II has a stupid gimmick that is fun the first time you find it and then you never really want to visit it again except maybe because it allows you to avoid that cagey area of MAP15 that I have always found annoying to go through.

It's the only id Tech 1 game as such that completely cops out on its secret levels. IMO it'd be fine if they were a gimmick in addition to some serious secrets.

Here's why I like Betray being added in the XBox version even if it's not a fantastic map - at least it acts like a legitimate secret level. DOOM II could have used several of those, hidden in increasingly more difficult-to-find ways.

Doom 64 did it right. Not only are there a ton of secrets (one of which is indeed gimmicky) but, the majority of them serve a purpose too - granting access to super-secret items that enhance your ultimate weapon.

Old Post 11-15-12 22:15 #
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