Invisibility is Dog Crap - Doomworld Forums

Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5

Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Invisibility is Dog Crap

Pages (2): « 1 [2]

Author

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:24.

40oz
And who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But that's extremely unlikely because I'm always right.

Posts: 5542
Registered: 08-07

I like partial invisibilities, but MAP07: Dead Simple is the worst map you could use them in. Using partial invisibility in that map amplifies the difficulty because arachnatrons and mancs are easily the most difficulty monsters to fight while invisible.

However, partial invisibility can be a godsend while playing on nightmare mode, in slaughterfests, or of course, zombies.

12-11-12 19:38 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

joe-ilya
Member

Posts: 261
Registered: 10-12

with this powerup chaingunners and nazis are confused to shoot you

and you also can face the monsters with out making them notice you

that's useful

just put it before a hazardous place

and it's also harder to see you in deathmatch

__________________
name at skulltag:joe
name at zdaemon:ilya_the_joe_12

12-11-12 19:53 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Obsidian
Forum Regular

Posts: 857
Registered: 05-12

It's funny when Arachnatrons are trying to shoot you with PI on.

"He's there!"
"No, he's over there!"
"Wait, he's over here!"
"I'm getting dizzy..."

12-11-12 20:57 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Eris Falling
Senior Member

Posts: 1438
Registered: 07-12

Obsidian said:
It's funny when Arachnatrons are trying to shoot you with PI on.

"He's there!"
"No, he's over there!"
"Wait, he's over here!"
"I'm getting dizzy..."

I'm so implementing this in the map I'm working on right now, add Masterminds to that...

12-11-12 20:58 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Mechadon
Senior Member

Posts: 1977
Registered: 12-06

On a side-note, I always wished Invisispheres kept Revenant rockets from homing. Seemed like a really good use for it aside from confusing hitscanners.

12-12-12 07:18 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

CorSair
Member

Posts: 259
Registered: 11-12

Mechadon said:
On a side-note, I always wished Invisispheres kept Revenant rockets from homing. Seemed like a really good use for it aside from confusing hitscanners.

That would've been proper use of Partial Invisibility. Otherwise, it is still piece of turd. Except multiplayer. Maybe there it has bit more use.

12-12-12 11:57 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Maes
I like big butts!

Posts: 10161
Registered: 07-06

SS Nazis seem to be lousy shots either way.

12-12-12 12:23 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
Forum Regular

Posts: 859
Registered: 11-10

Whether the Invisibility is useless it depends. The Invisibility is very useful against hitscanners like chaingunnies and S.Ms. But against monsters shoting projectiles like HKs and cybers, then it will be a dangerous pickup.

12-13-12 08:46 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Feniks
Mini-Member

Posts: 72
Registered: 08-12

Yeah, there already are some examples of really bad usage of blur spheres. Hell Revealed's Cyberpunk comes to mind, where they give you a blur sphere before you have to fight five cyberdemons... As a whole, that map is one of my favourites from HR, but the blur sphere is completely gratuitous, just like a big "fuck you" to the player.

12-13-12 09:51 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Phobus
Forum Staple

Posts: 2138
Registered: 10-06

Making a cyberdemon fight harder by forcing the player to grab a blur sphere is perfectly legitimate map design, as far as I'm concerned, as long as there's plenty of room for the player to see the shots coming. I think the real trick with it is forcing yourself to not reflexively strafe every time an enemy fires at you. As somebody pointed out earlier, it is pretty useful when you can't (or don't) dodge.

12-13-12 10:30 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

Posts: 2275
Registered: 01-10

PI should do what Mechadon suggests, and make an Arch-Vile confused as to which creature in a room is his target. That would be cool too.

12-13-12 13:40 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

KiiiYiiiKiiiA
Senior Member

Posts: 1002
Registered: 04-11

Invisibility sphere is kinda half dog crap. Not total dog crap, but half dog crap.

I mean, just reading the number of possible improvements suggested on this thread in itself strongly implies that the PI in its vanilla state is not that great.

I mean is there ever a bad time for an invulnerability sphere? (Well yes, but only when you pick it up and have no monsters to use it on.)

Is there ever a bad time to pick up a soulsphere? Again potentially yes, but it always has benefits, regardless of when you pick it up.

The PI is a double-edged sword, and its good side is only moderately good.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 12-13-12 at 14:58

12-13-12 14:03 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Six
Member

Posts: 294
Registered: 02-10

What i don't understand is, why didn't id make PI more effective? They could've made the sphere grant complete invisibility, having the enemies in a temporary 'don't attack player' state, or was this a nuisance to code back then?

There's a lot they could've done with it honestly, unless the effect it gives was really their desired result and if true, was definitely a poor one.

12-13-12 14:31 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

(empty)
Mini-Member

Posts: 79
Registered: 09-08

Six said:
What i don't understand is, why didn't id make PI more effective? They could've made the sphere grant complete invisibility, having the enemies in a temporary 'don't attack player' state, or was this a nuisance to code back then?

I can't imagine it would've been that difficult, although it's possible that they thought it was.

Keep in mind how many corners they had to cut to get Doom to run well back in 1993.

12-13-12 14:54 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Six
Member

Posts: 294
Registered: 02-10

(empty) said:
Keep in mind how many corners they had to cut to get Doom to run well back in 1993.

I wouldn't of thought a simple code execution to change enemy behavior would've created any performance issue, literally it would just be making the enemies attack action void until the power up timer ends. From here their attack is cycled again. The visual effects of the PI would remain the same.

12-13-12 15:56 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Maes
I like big butts!

Posts: 10161
Registered: 07-06

(empty) said:
Keep in mind how many corners they had to cut to get Doom to run well back in 1993.

Actually, making monsters ignore the player would have been easy, and actually make the game run faster, since fewer checks would need to be done. But the outcome on gameplay would be devastating: imagine being able to do a complete pacifist run through a level without awakening monsters. What about monsters already alerted to your presence? Should they give up hunting or just be worse at seeing you?

12-13-12 16:48 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

(empty)
Mini-Member

Posts: 79
Registered: 09-08

Maes said:
Actually, making monsters ignore the player would have been easy, and actually make the game run faster, since fewer checks would need to be done.

...Okay for some reason I was thinking it would be a "have every monster make a check to see if invisibility is on" thing, but that makes much more sense.

But the outcome on gameplay would be devastating: imagine being able to do a complete pacifist run through a level without awakening monsters. What about monsters already alerted to your presence? Should they give up hunting or just be worse at seeing you?

The former would just require either different monster placement, or making the Blur Sphere more rare. Not terribly devastating.

The latter could be solved with monsters already chasing you use the current Blur Sphere behavior (lowered accuracy).

12-13-12 18:09 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Maes
I like big butts!

Posts: 10161
Registered: 07-06

(empty) said:
...Okay for some reason I was thinking it would be a "have every monster make a check to see if invisibility is on" thing

That's how it would work, more or less: a sort of "blind" flag which would need to be checked, but would prevent performing much more expensive checks afterwards. Kinda like the deaf flag.

12-13-12 22:08 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Pirx
Member

Posts: 632
Registered: 11-04

Six said:
What i don't understand is, why didn't id make PI more effective? They could've made the sphere grant complete invisibility, having the enemies in a temporary 'don't attack player' state, or was this a nuisance to code back then?

There's a lot they could've done with it honestly, unless the effect it gives was really their desired result and if true, was definitely a poor one.

why is it a poor implementation? it's pretty much how humans reacted facing the movie predator when he was visible only as a fast moving blur: shoot in his general direction, they might get a lucky hit. it would be illogical for them to ignore the player completely, even if they can see him as a faint blur, or at least hear him. it's a partial invisibility, not a paralyzing powerup. i find it more believable than the quake version for example. i think people who don't like the partial invisibility expect too much from it, they want a full invis instead without the strengths and weaknesses of the PI.

12-13-12 23:59 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Six
Member

Posts: 294
Registered: 02-10

Pirx said:
why is it a poor implementation?

I think the thread in itself answers that question for you. The effectiveness of the PI is more beneficial to hitscanners than to the rest of the monster library, in fact (from what has already been stated several times in the thread) it has the tendency to cripple players due to the unpredictability of an enemies projectile direction. I don't care about realism, this is Doom we're talking about here. Personally i would've preferred complete invisibility, it would've made the item a lot more worth while to collect.

Each to their own.

12-14-12 11:35 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

ComicMischief
Member

Posts: 400
Registered: 06-12

When Doom was released, WASD-and-mouse wasn't the main control scheme. Hell, mouse-and-keys wasn't even (not until Quake got big). I'm not saying nobody used it (they did) but most players were keyboarders who hadn't even configured the controls and went with the defaults. As such, a lot of folk would play very slowly - and when you're not superdodging all over the place Partial Invisibility is more a help than a hindrance since standing still actually becomes a viable strategy.

Now I think of it, PI is a great gameplay-balancer in the way it gives poorer players a chance and as such, brilliantly implemented. I now love it, screw you guys.

12-14-12 11:44 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

KiiiYiiiKiiiA
Senior Member

Posts: 1002
Registered: 04-11

Well. that's another Doomworld thread brought to a successful conclusion.

*sigh* I feel all warm inside. :D

12-14-12 14:05 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Avoozl
Indecisive

Posts: 1046
Registered: 06-09

40oz said:
I like partial invisibilities, but MAP07: Dead Simple is the worst map you could use them in. Using partial invisibility in that map amplifies the difficulty because arachnatrons and mancs are easily the most difficulty monsters to fight while invisible

Maybe it's to provide an extra challenge for those who want it.

12-14-12 14:21 #

Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy

IP || Edit/Delete || Quote

Memfis
Forum Spammer

Posts: 3130
Registered: 04-07

Xaser said:
Unfortunately, the only thing you can really do is replace them with an existing powerup, since all the powerup effects are hardcoded. You could get away with doing something like replace them with soulspheres, though.

Can I replace them with a powerup that works like soulsphere but gives the player only 50hp?

12-16-12 14:42 #