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40oz
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I like partial invisibilities, but MAP07: Dead Simple is the worst map you could use them in. Using partial invisibility in that map amplifies the difficulty because arachnatrons and mancs are easily the most difficulty monsters to fight while invisible.

However, partial invisibility can be a godsend while playing on nightmare mode, in slaughterfests, or of course, zombies.

Old Post 12-11-12 19:38 #
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joe-ilya
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with this powerup chaingunners and nazis are confused to shoot you

and you also can face the monsters with out making them notice you

that's useful

just put it before a hazardous place

and it's also harder to see you in deathmatch

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Old Post 12-11-12 19:53 #
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Obsidian
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It's funny when Arachnatrons are trying to shoot you with PI on.

"He's there!"
"No, he's over there!"
"Wait, he's over here!"
"I'm getting dizzy..."

Old Post 12-11-12 20:57 #
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Eris Falling
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Obsidian said:
It's funny when Arachnatrons are trying to shoot you with PI on.

"He's there!"
"No, he's over there!"
"Wait, he's over here!"
"I'm getting dizzy..."



I'm so implementing this in the map I'm working on right now, add Masterminds to that...

Old Post 12-11-12 20:58 #
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Mechadon
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On a side-note, I always wished Invisispheres kept Revenant rockets from homing. Seemed like a really good use for it aside from confusing hitscanners.

Old Post 12-12-12 07:18 #
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CorSair
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Mechadon said:
On a side-note, I always wished Invisispheres kept Revenant rockets from homing. Seemed like a really good use for it aside from confusing hitscanners.

That would've been proper use of Partial Invisibility. Otherwise, it is still piece of turd. Except multiplayer. Maybe there it has bit more use.

Old Post 12-12-12 11:57 #
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Maes
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SS Nazis seem to be lousy shots either way.

Old Post 12-12-12 12:23 #
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
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Whether the Invisibility is useless it depends. The Invisibility is very useful against hitscanners like chaingunnies and S.Ms. But against monsters shoting projectiles like HKs and cybers, then it will be a dangerous pickup.

Old Post 12-13-12 08:46 #
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Feniks
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Yeah, there already are some examples of really bad usage of blur spheres. Hell Revealed's Cyberpunk comes to mind, where they give you a blur sphere before you have to fight five cyberdemons... As a whole, that map is one of my favourites from HR, but the blur sphere is completely gratuitous, just like a big "fuck you" to the player.

Old Post 12-13-12 09:51 #
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Phobus
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Making a cyberdemon fight harder by forcing the player to grab a blur sphere is perfectly legitimate map design, as far as I'm concerned, as long as there's plenty of room for the player to see the shots coming. I think the real trick with it is forcing yourself to not reflexively strafe every time an enemy fires at you. As somebody pointed out earlier, it is pretty useful when you can't (or don't) dodge.

Old Post 12-13-12 10:30 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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PI should do what Mechadon suggests, and make an Arch-Vile confused as to which creature in a room is his target. That would be cool too.

Old Post 12-13-12 13:40 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Invisibility sphere is kinda half dog crap. Not total dog crap, but half dog crap.

I mean, just reading the number of possible improvements suggested on this thread in itself strongly implies that the PI in its vanilla state is not that great.

I mean is there ever a bad time for an invulnerability sphere? (Well yes, but only when you pick it up and have no monsters to use it on.)

Is there ever a bad time to pick up a soulsphere? Again potentially yes, but it always has benefits, regardless of when you pick it up.

The PI is a double-edged sword, and its good side is only moderately good.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 12-13-12 at 14:58

Old Post 12-13-12 14:03 #
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Six
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What i don't understand is, why didn't id make PI more effective? They could've made the sphere grant complete invisibility, having the enemies in a temporary 'don't attack player' state, or was this a nuisance to code back then?

There's a lot they could've done with it honestly, unless the effect it gives was really their desired result and if true, was definitely a poor one.

Old Post 12-13-12 14:31 #
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(empty)
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Six said:
What i don't understand is, why didn't id make PI more effective? They could've made the sphere grant complete invisibility, having the enemies in a temporary 'don't attack player' state, or was this a nuisance to code back then?

I can't imagine it would've been that difficult, although it's possible that they thought it was.

Keep in mind how many corners they had to cut to get Doom to run well back in 1993.

Old Post 12-13-12 14:54 #
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Six
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(empty) said:
Keep in mind how many corners they had to cut to get Doom to run well back in 1993.


I wouldn't of thought a simple code execution to change enemy behavior would've created any performance issue, literally it would just be making the enemies attack action void until the power up timer ends. From here their attack is cycled again. The visual effects of the PI would remain the same.

Old Post 12-13-12 15:56 #
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Maes
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(empty) said:
Keep in mind how many corners they had to cut to get Doom to run well back in 1993.


Actually, making monsters ignore the player would have been easy, and actually make the game run faster, since fewer checks would need to be done. But the outcome on gameplay would be devastating: imagine being able to do a complete pacifist run through a level without awakening monsters. What about monsters already alerted to your presence? Should they give up hunting or just be worse at seeing you?

Old Post 12-13-12 16:48 #
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(empty)
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Maes said:
Actually, making monsters ignore the player would have been easy, and actually make the game run faster, since fewer checks would need to be done.

...Okay for some reason I was thinking it would be a "have every monster make a check to see if invisibility is on" thing, but that makes much more sense.

But the outcome on gameplay would be devastating: imagine being able to do a complete pacifist run through a level without awakening monsters. What about monsters already alerted to your presence? Should they give up hunting or just be worse at seeing you?

The former would just require either different monster placement, or making the Blur Sphere more rare. Not terribly devastating.

The latter could be solved with monsters already chasing you use the current Blur Sphere behavior (lowered accuracy).

Old Post 12-13-12 18:09 #
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Maes
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(empty) said:
...Okay for some reason I was thinking it would be a "have every monster make a check to see if invisibility is on" thing


That's how it would work, more or less: a sort of "blind" flag which would need to be checked, but would prevent performing much more expensive checks afterwards. Kinda like the deaf flag.

Old Post 12-13-12 22:08 #
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Pirx
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Six said:
What i don't understand is, why didn't id make PI more effective? They could've made the sphere grant complete invisibility, having the enemies in a temporary 'don't attack player' state, or was this a nuisance to code back then?

There's a lot they could've done with it honestly, unless the effect it gives was really their desired result and if true, was definitely a poor one.




why is it a poor implementation? it's pretty much how humans reacted facing the movie predator when he was visible only as a fast moving blur: shoot in his general direction, they might get a lucky hit. it would be illogical for them to ignore the player completely, even if they can see him as a faint blur, or at least hear him. it's a partial invisibility, not a paralyzing powerup. i find it more believable than the quake version for example. i think people who don't like the partial invisibility expect too much from it, they want a full invis instead without the strengths and weaknesses of the PI.

Old Post 12-13-12 23:59 #
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Six
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Pirx said:
why is it a poor implementation?


I think the thread in itself answers that question for you. The effectiveness of the PI is more beneficial to hitscanners than to the rest of the monster library, in fact (from what has already been stated several times in the thread) it has the tendency to cripple players due to the unpredictability of an enemies projectile direction. I don't care about realism, this is Doom we're talking about here. Personally i would've preferred complete invisibility, it would've made the item a lot more worth while to collect.

Each to their own.

Old Post 12-14-12 11:35 #
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ComicMischief
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When Doom was released, WASD-and-mouse wasn't the main control scheme. Hell, mouse-and-keys wasn't even (not until Quake got big). I'm not saying nobody used it (they did) but most players were keyboarders who hadn't even configured the controls and went with the defaults. As such, a lot of folk would play very slowly - and when you're not superdodging all over the place Partial Invisibility is more a help than a hindrance since standing still actually becomes a viable strategy.

Now I think of it, PI is a great gameplay-balancer in the way it gives poorer players a chance and as such, brilliantly implemented. I now love it, screw you guys.

Old Post 12-14-12 11:44 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Well. that's another Doomworld thread brought to a successful conclusion.

*sigh* I feel all warm inside. :D

Old Post 12-14-12 14:05 #
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Avoozl
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40oz said:
I like partial invisibilities, but MAP07: Dead Simple is the worst map you could use them in. Using partial invisibility in that map amplifies the difficulty because arachnatrons and mancs are easily the most difficulty monsters to fight while invisible
Maybe it's to provide an extra challenge for those who want it.

Old Post 12-14-12 14:21 #
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Memfis
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Xaser said:
Unfortunately, the only thing you can really do is replace them with an existing powerup, since all the powerup effects are hardcoded. You could get away with doing something like replace them with soulspheres, though.

Can I replace them with a powerup that works like soulsphere but gives the player only 50hp?

Old Post 12-16-12 14:42 #
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myk
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You can't.

Old Post 12-16-12 14:54 #
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