Doom 2: BFG Edition (A plea to ID)

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Da Werecat
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fraggle said:
You can make some improvement by using high res textures, 3D models, etc.

I think the safest way to do a facelift to a 2.5D FPS is to redraw everything in high-res while keeping it flat. Durandal is a notable example. But that's far from being "cutting edge."

02-23-13 15:13 #

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fraggle
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Only thing that I think might be nice to see would be a "remastered" release that added subtle improvements like perkristian's enhanced weapon animations and hi-res sound pack. There are other things that could also potentially be done: higher-res textures and possibly sprites for example. Beautiful Doom does something like this but from the videos I've seen it looks like it changes too much.

02-23-13 16:57 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 9139
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Antroid said:
I have never even considered the two original Dooms to be the fast-paced action games everyone seems convinced they were meant to be

That's the beauty of Doom. It can be slow-paced or fast-paced. You can run and gun blazing your path to the exit, or you can progress cautiously and methodically, exploring each level to their fullest, discovering secret areas and tracking down every last monster you can find. Or some happy medium between both approaches.

Even in a rather linear level, you usually have this possibility to take things as quickly or as slowly as you want. You determine the pace. (Mostly. Some levels produced by the community tend to force you to use frantic action by using different tricks to prevent you from slowing down the pace.)

Modern shooters generally can only be played in one way: slowly, taking potshots from behind cover and stopping to regenerate each time you're hurt. Doom is held as a fast-paced action shooter not because it's necessarily what it is, but because it's what it offers that more recent games lack.

02-23-13 17:06 #

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darkreaver
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Slightly off topic, but I really dont get why no ultra fast-paced and mega action-packed games are made (or maybe they are? I dont follow the game industry/releases).

Think Quake but a lot faster with even crazier jumps and weapons and tons of monsters in single player. Add demo-compability to the game and I`m fucking drooling just thinking about the awesome speed demos and UV-maxes.

Also: no fucking story or continuity. Whats the goal of the game? Get to the exit in each map. Simple as that.

Thats my dream Doom 4. Never gonna happen though.

Well, when I think about it I think I just described how I wanted Quake 4-5-6-7-whatever singleplayer to be :P

I have no idea why I wrote this post.

02-23-13 18:30 #

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Antroid
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I always felt that Doom worked best when you were faced with a sprawling level, dwindling ammo and health amounts and growing sense of desperation. My dream Doom 4 would be like a Doom 3, set in large nonlinear levels that you can't just sprint through and have to explore, with strong enemies pretty much stalking and hunting you. I know it's not the popular perception of Doom, but to me that's the ideal. I would absolutely despise darkreaver's dream Doom 4, for example. I really don't want it to be a crazy serious sam-type shooter where you jump around like Spiderman on crack, do tricks and the enemies are just glorified paper targets that you only think about when you choose the flashiest weapon to kill them with. That would be the polar opposite of what the Doom feel is to me. I want it to have opressing/depressing atmosphere inspired by Doom 2's soundtrack, in fact have a similiar soundtrack if any, and some backstory to help the player feel appropriately alone and desperate. Make the player a bit more helpless and weak, so that you often have to run away blindly and such.
Coincidentally, that would make a sweet doom 2 remake, too, for me.

Also I have to cite SS3 once again as a modern shooter that got nearly everything right. You have to get used to the restrictions (like lots of dust, being unable to reload or switch guns while running, etc) and then you can have tons of fun and many different ways to approach battles. My personal favorite has been the slighly cheaty way of finding an elevated area where nobody can get me and dispatching the monsters in relative safety. Although as I said, in my eyes actiony gameplay doesn't really fit doom. I would almost prefer light stealth for being able to evade enemies in situations when you can't possibly deal with them.

Save your rotten tomatoes everyone, I'll stop this blasphemy on my own :D

02-24-13 00:14 #

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darkreaver
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Antroid said:
I would absolutely despise darkreaver's dream Doom 4

I would too, actually hehe

I`d like it for singleplayer Quake again though.

02-24-13 00:32 #

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Antroid
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I know people are usually all up for games like that abandoning any story whatsoever, but I would be all over a new game like quake 1, set in similiar environments, with similiar gameplay (or more actiony and whatever people want from quake these days), if it had like one backstory cutscene, maybe some intermission ones and the player character remarking realistically for a human being from planet earth about the craziness of these combat situations he finds himself in and the world itself. Maybe some radio conversations with equally perplexed command. Have a joke or two first time he has to use oversized buttons that make something arbitrary happen in an unrelated area of the level and in similiar situations, like finding secrets.

02-24-13 00:56 #

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Doomkid92
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Touchdown said:
I'd rather have DOOM 4, an actual successor that will surprise me with all the new things and ideas

I know exactly where you're coming from, but I have a bit of fear that Doom 4 may not surprise us in a "good" way. If it does, I'll for sure be cheering.

fraggle said:
This is a more reasonable request, but I'd much rather see a completely new game designed in this way, rather than messing with a classic one like Doom 2.

After giving it more thought, I agree. A new game with this style of play sounds incredible.

scalliano said:
TBH I'd rather see the reverse of what's being discussed here - a new game in the series using the original visuals (think Mega Man 9)

This is also a good idea, but then again we're getting into "This is what WADs and mods do already" territory. In truth, given ID's newfound direction, I fear the results of this being done 'officially'.

Gez said:
That's the beauty of Doom. It can be slow-paced or fast-paced. You can run and gun blazing your path to the exit, or you can progress cautiously and methodically, exploring each level to their fullest, discovering secret areas and tracking down every last monster you can find. Or some happy medium between both approaches.
...
Modern shooters generally can only be played in one way: slowly, taking potshots from behind cover and stopping to regenerate each time you're hurt. Doom is held as a fast-paced action shooter not because it's necessarily what it is, but because it's what it offers that more recent games lack.

This. Gez says everything I was attempting to say, but better.

darkreaver said:
Slightly off topic, but I really dont get why no ultra fast-paced and mega action-packed games are made (or maybe they are? I dont follow the game industry/releases).

I know, right? I have to play Serious Sam by the sounds of things. I didn't even really hear about it unti recently, I suppose the title was buried under the cries of CoD and Halo fanboys. Christ those games are boring (Well, Halo isn't too bad... At least there's some imagination.)

darkreaver said:
Also: no fucking story or continuity. Whats the goal of the game? Get to the exit in each map. Simple as that.

Thats my dream Doom 4. Never gonna happen though.

My fuck I couldn't agree more. So many games are buried under their crappy, uninteresting storylines that it makes me cringe. I guess having grown up with Mario and Doom, I find the story aspect to be superficial as all hell. If I wanted to watch a B-Movie, I would. :P

In fact, to be a little more fair to Halo 4, one thing I actually liked was the colors (I also enjoy this in Far Cry 3). It was like "Daaaaamn, some color in a modern FPS? At least we're getting somewhere."

Okay, I'm off to hunt down a copy of Serious Sam..

02-24-13 02:00 #

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Touchdown
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darkreaver said:
Slightly off topic, but I really dont get why no ultra fast-paced and mega action-packed games are made (or maybe they are? I dont follow the game industry/releases).

Think Quake but a lot faster with even crazier jumps and weapons and tons of monsters in single player.

How about the upcoming Rise of the Triad remake?

Doomkid92 said:
I know exactly where you're coming from, but I have a bit of fear that Doom 4 may not surprise us in a "good" way. If it does, I'll for sure be cheering.

This depends on whether you're willing to accept things that do not match your vision but might be good anyway. If DOOM 4 is good, I intend to have fun with it and appreciate it, even if it does things differently than what I would have prefered.

02-24-13 08:34 #

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DoomUK
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fraggle said:
Only thing that I think might be nice to see would be a "remastered" release that added subtle improvements like perkristian's enhanced weapon animations and hi-res sound pack. There are other things that could also potentially be done: higher-res textures and possibly sprites for example. Beautiful Doom does something like this but from the videos I've seen it looks like it changes too much.

The line between "subtle improvement" and pointless remaking of things seems to be rather vague.

Not that I'm in disagreement over "Doom: The Director's Cut" being a neat idea, but would perkristian's sound and animation projects have made Doom any better or worse, had they been part of the original game? Do they really enhance the experience besides sounding good and looking pretty? Is it inconceivable to be able to enjoy the game just as much without using them?

02-24-13 08:43 #

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Vaporizer
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fraggle said:
Only thing that I think might be nice to see would be a "remastered" release that added subtle improvements like perkristian's enhanced weapon animations and hi-res sound pack. There are other things that could also potentially be done: higher-res textures and possibly sprites for example. Beautiful Doom does something like this but from the videos I've seen it looks like it changes too much.

Smoother enemy animations would be awesome, but a lot of work. Smoother item and texture animations would be great too and not as much work.

02-24-13 15:31 #

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Mr. T
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Something like this could be cool:

.
In fact, it's what Doom for iPhone was going to be at one point.

02-24-13 17:04 #

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darkreaver
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Touchdown said:

How about the upcoming Rise of the Triad remake?

Looks ike utter crap, and yes, the original RoTT was shit too :)

02-24-13 17:52 #

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Touchdown
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Still it's pretty much exactly [strike]what you want from DOOM[/strike] what you described. Super fast action, fast running speed, lots of gore, arcade gameplay, etc.

02-24-13 18:25 #

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Maes
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Id is not going to try to beat source ports at their own game, period.
Nor are they going to try to put an official sheen on one of the many "Doom remake" projects.

The Classic Doom games in Doom 3 BFG Edition are the closest you'll ever get to a "Doom: BFG Edition" and "Doom 2: BFG Edition", deal with it.

That is, of course, if Doom 4 proves to be the sort of "official remake" that people were really waiting for.

02-24-13 22:16 #

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DoomCollector
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I LOVE HD remakes that only alter the game slightly. Anti-aliasing, resolution and slight graphical changes are the ONLY changes I approve.

Play Doom in 320x200 and your eyesight is crippled then crank it up to 1600x1000 and the game goes crisp as shit and gets a modern appearance without compromising anything.
Daggerfall and System Shock are also playable in modern resolutions up to 1920x1200 and the difference is really, really sweet.

I also love complete remakes, like Resident Evil for the GameCube.

I STRONGLY dislike games like the Doom source ports that add things that most definitely were not in the original like texture decals, particle effects or even game-breaking mechanics such as jumping.

By the way one thing that really changes when you play Doom in higher resolutions is that specters get a lot easier to see. Try playing the game through in 640x400... they're hard as hell to see!

02-25-13 00:12 #

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Antroid
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I never play doom in a resolution higher than 1024x768. (Rarely even higher than 640x480, I raise it higher than that for large and sprawling levels to better see at a distance). Nor do I ever use any "prettying-up" options - HD textures, smoother animations, other sounds, hardware rendering (especially!) etc. I usually can't stand those kinds of mods for games. Didn't mind Serious Sam HD though, although they managed to slightly fuck up the gameplay with those ones...

I do play all wads in zdoom though, with the compatibility options set to strict, I'm just used to it and the other ports feel like they have terrible controls in menus.

02-25-13 01:09 #

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Doomkid92
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Touchdown said:
How about the upcoming Rise of the Triad remake?

Just my opinion, that looks fun as fuck. I will definitely get it upon release. I didn't really play that much of the original RoTT because there was Doom to play, and RoTT seemed like a poor man's Doom, at the time.

DoomCollector said:
I STRONGLY dislike games like the Doom source ports that add things that most definitely were not in the original like texture decals, particle effects or even game-breaking mechanics such as jumping

It's a cool feature for mods based around it, but I agree for the most part as well. I'm usually dumbstruck when a "classic doom 2" server has jumping and crouching enabled, but then freelook of all things is disabled, the one new feature that won't break the game.. lol.

On a side note, I'm disappointed that Odamex and Chocolate Doom 99.9% of the time are completely empty, like a ghost town. It's basically a choice between Zandronum and Zdaemon, which nearly always have custom features and mods enabled, which is fine, but finding a true classic online server then getting others to join is nearly impossible.

Maes said:
The Classic Doom games in Doom 3 BFG Edition are the closest you'll ever get to a "Doom: BFG Edition" and "Doom 2: BFG Edition", deal with it.

Doomkid92 said:
After giving it more thought, I agree. A new game with this style of play sounds incredible.

Again, that RoTT trailer looks pretty promising in terms of fun-factor. I'll just have to wait and see!

02-25-13 06:21 #

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Touchdown
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Antroid said:
I never play doom in a resolution higher than 1024x768. (Rarely even higher than 640x480, I raise it higher than that for large and sprawling levels to better see at a distance). Nor do I ever use any "prettying-up" options - HD textures, smoother animations, other sounds, hardware rendering (especially!) etc. I usually can't stand those kinds of mods for games. Didn't mind Serious Sam HD though, although they managed to slightly fuck up the gameplay with those ones...

I do play all wads in zdoom though, with the compatibility options set to strict, I'm just used to it and the other ports feel like they have terrible controls in menus.

I ALWAYS play with GZDOOM, 1080p res, all the texture filters. I never use any gameplay/graphical mods/tweaks though. Compatibility is always set to strict DOOM/BOOM (usually BOOM because most WADs use it), unless I'm playing a GZDOOM mapset.

02-25-13 06:56 #

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Antroid
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Touchdown said:

I ALWAYS play with GZDOOM, 1080p res, all the texture filters. I never use any gameplay/graphical mods/tweaks though. Compatibility is always set to strict DOOM/BOOM (usually BOOM because most WADs use it), unless I'm playing a GZDOOM mapset.

You better watch your back then in case we ever meet face-to-face!

02-25-13 10:07 #

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Avoozl
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I can't stand texture filters with Doom anymore, the games textures and sprites weren't made with them in mind and they look ugly with them. I play with 1152x864 in window mode and 1600x900 in fullscreen mode, I normally only play in window mode however.

02-25-13 10:31 #

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Enjay
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Avoozl said:
I can't stand texture filters with Doom anymore, the games textures and sprites weren't made with them in mind and they look ugly with them. I play with 1152x864 in window mode and 1600x900 in fullscreen mode, I normally only play in window mode however.

All of which is subjective. In my subjective opinion, I find the game less pleasing to play without texture filters. I think the textures and sprites look just fine with them and I think that the hard, grainy edge to the textures in software mode looks ugly. ;)

I play @ 1920 x 1200 in full screen mode. However, the only reason that I play at such a large resolution is that it's the native resolution of my monitor. I personally don't like playing in windowed mode. I find being able to see the edges of the desktop distracting.

02-25-13 11:04 #

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Touchdown
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Antroid said:
You better watch your back then in case we ever meet face-to-face!

Likewise, good sir. :)

Enjay said:
All of which is subjective. In my subjective opinion, I find the game less pleasing to play without texture filters. I think the textures and sprites look just fine with them and I think that the hard, grainy edge to the textures in software mode looks ugly. ;)

Agreed. But let me say that traditional trilinear filtering just makes everything blurry and in that case I can see why some prefer the software mode. But when you use High Quality Resize Mode, you get the best of both worlds, in my opinion.

02-25-13 11:54 #

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fraggle
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DoomUK said:

The line between "subtle improvement" and pointless remaking of things seems to be rather vague.

Yeah, I agree, it's kind of an arbitrary line, and I have no doubt that different people will draw it in different places.

But there seem to have been some interesting "subtle enhancement" mods over the past few years that follow a vaguely similar theme. perkristian's sound/animation enhancements are one example. _bruce_'s true colour port is another.

02-25-13 12:34 #

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DoomCollector
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Enjay said:

All of which is subjective. In my subjective opinion, I find the game less pleasing to play without texture filters. I think the textures and sprites look just fine with them and I think that the hard, grainy edge to the textures in software mode looks ugly. ;)

I play @ 1920 x 1200 in full screen mode. However, the only reason that I play at such a large resolution is that it's the native resolution of my monitor. I personally don't like playing in windowed mode. I find being able to see the edges of the desktop distracting.

I have a 1920x1200 (16:10) monitor but play in 1600x1000 (16:10) stretched to 1600x1200 (4:3) with black borders on the sides instead of 1920x1200 full-screen because I heard while the original resolution is 16:10 it was meant to be stretched to a 4:3 aspect ratio as 16:10 monitors didn't even exist back then... at least most people had a 4:3 monitor and the characters appear really wide in 16:10.
DOSBox makes black borders automatically.
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio

02-25-13 12:34 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

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Source ports usually can handle the aspect ratio correction already, so you're at the risk of stretching the image twice if you're using a source port in high-resolution and letting the screen stretch the image to fit 16:10 into 4:3.

02-25-13 13:12 #

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scalliano
This door is opened elsewhere...

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Maes said:
Id is not going to try to beat source ports at their own game, period.

They wouldn't need to. In this instance, all the engine would need would be higher limits (BFG Ed already has that) and a handful of new linetypes and codepointers. If id were to go the whole hog and introduce scripting into the mix, they'd probably lift ACS or QuakeC wholesale and plonk that in.

Not gonna happen, obviously, but speculation is fun.

02-25-13 19:19 #

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Antroid
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I'm writing down the names of all the people who like the atrocious, disgusting blurry mess that is Doom with hardware rendering. You're all going down (eventually).

02-26-13 01:01 #

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DoomCollector
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What's hardware rending? Like what diffrence does it make and what people use it? Do I?

02-26-13 18:53 #

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scalliano
This door is opened elsewhere...

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Antroid said:
I'm writing down the names of all the people who like the atrocious, disgusting blurry mess that is Doom with *TEXURE FILTERING*. You're all going down (eventually).

FTFY.

I prefer my pixels unsullied, thanks.

02-26-13 21:20 #

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Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Doom 2: BFG Edition (A plea to ID)

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