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SiFi270
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I'm sure vague thread titles like this are frowned upon, but I'd really like to know this and I'm sure someone can answer it with zero effort.

In Map32 of Doom II, how long is it, in in-game units, from here to here?

http://i.imgur.com/XOrS6my.png

I'd like to know so I can calculate Doomguy's running speed. I know that's been done a zillion times before, but I'm convinced I've found the most precise method yet. Also, the fact that it's this particular level allows me to also record and compare B.J.'s speed.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 21:37 #
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Memfis
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4720. You could easily measure it yourself in any doom editor.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 21:49 #
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Ribbiks
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more precise than just looking at the sourcecode ey?

btw it's 4720 units..

Old Post Apr 3 2013 21:49 #
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BaronOfStuff
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4720 units.

You could have just opened the map in Doom Builder.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 21:50 #
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40oz
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4720 units. btw you could have just looked at the post above mine.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:08 #
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SiFi270
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Eureka, y'all!

Since Doomguy is canonically 6 feet tall according to Quake 3, and 56 units high according to the wiki, that means that one foot is 9.3 units. This means that the room is 505 feet long, and it takes the marine 8 seconds to traverse it, which is 63 feet per second, or 43 miles per hour. When wallrunning, the marine moves approximately twice as fast as this, so his highest possible speed is 86 miles per hour.

As for B.J. Blazcowicz, it takes him four seconds to run the safe distance, which means his speed while running normally is equal to Doomguy's speed while wallrunning.

But both of these are totally lame compared to Caleb from Blood. E1M3 of that game takes place on a train going from Miskatonic Station, which is named after Miskatonic University from the Cthulhu Mythos and so presumably isn't too far away, to Green Town, from the novel Something Wicked This Way Comes. According to the film adaptation's commentary, it was filmed in Main Street, New York. Google Maps shows that the building Miskatonic is based on and Main Street are 398 miles apart, and the train reaches its destination as soon as you beat the level. The fastest time I know of for this level is one minute, so that's how long it takes the train to travel 398 miles. That's mach 30. By straferunning and jumping, Caleb is able to outrun this train.

Damn.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:09 #
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Gez
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If you want to compare Doomguy's speed with BJ's speed, keep in mind that the level conversion changed the 64-unit squares used by Wolf3D into 128-unit squares because they used the higher-res MacWolf textures.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:14 #
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SiFi270
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Okay, so they're still equal when running normally. I'm sure B.J. would still run 86mph if he were able to wallrun.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:15 #
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SFoZ911
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I'm speechless, MACH30?! are you sure you got it all right?

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:15 #
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SiFi270
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As right as I can. Still, it's only half as fast as the penguin from Antarctic Adventure.

For some perspective, Sonic the Hedgehog's highest recorded speed is mach 3.

UPDATE: I went back to that level in Blood and tried outrunning the train without strafing or jumping, and he ran at the exact same speed as the train.

Last edited by SiFi270 on Apr 3 2013 at 22:29

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:17 #
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Tarnsman
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SiFi270 said:
By straferunning and jumping, Caleb is able to outrun this train.

Do you ever physically leave the train? Because moving quickly through the train is not the same as moving faster than the train.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:30 #
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SiFi270
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You can, but it causes you to rapidly take damage.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:33 #
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fraggle
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Just 2mph faster and the marine could travel through time.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:55 #
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Grazza
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What about when the Doom Marine wraps around from one corner of the void to the other? At that point he moves 92680 units in one gametic.

Old Post Apr 3 2013 22:56 #
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Maes
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Already done

Maes said:
There. And now don't ever ask or try to "calclate" Doomguy's speed ever again or I will fucking kill you.

And as far as "direct" methods go, how about adding a speedometer directly into a fucking source port?

But wait. This only gives you the speed in terms of map units per tic. Mapping (pardon the pun) map units (mu) to "real" units (feet, meters, whatever) is not all that well defined: interpretations range from 8 mu/feet to 16 mu/feet, depending on who you believe. And they are definitively different in the horizontal/vertical scale.

My opinion? I belong to the "school of thought" that 16 mu/feet are OK for horizontal distances, and 10 mu/feet for vertical distances (maybe even 8 mu/feet). 8 mu/feet is just too much for vertical distances (so Doomguy needs a 4-foot = 32 mu/8 wide opening to be able to squeeze through? No way)

In those quoted figures, I used the 16 mu/ft equivalence:

Maes said:
So, how much can Doomguy run? Wallrunning does indeed give 45 mph (30 mu/tics). Normal running is 25 mph (still, nothing short of moving around on a moped), normal walking is half that (still as fast as normal biking or rollerskating).

QED: Doomguy runs abnormally fast. Class dismissed.

Actually, only one correction: wallrunning can do the vector sum of 45 mph in two dimensions, if done on a diagonal wall, so it's more like 63.63 mph on such a wall an 45 mph on a perfectly vertical one (depends on the sliding technique one uses, too). But normal running...nope. After all, we all know the secret behind Doomguy's speed by now ;-)

Last edited by Maes on Apr 4 2013 at 00:04

Old Post Apr 3 2013 23:55 #
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SiFi270
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I wouldn't know about the difference between horizontal and vertical units, but I'm still certain that 9 1/3 units is equal to one foot in height, due to Doomguy's in-game height and his canonical height provided by Quake 3. If you think that horizontal units are five eighths of that, then I can easily recalculate with that in mind. But it doesn't look like you want me to, so I'm willing to leave things as they are.

Old Post Apr 4 2013 11:30 #
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Enjay
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SiFi270 said:
Doomguy's in-game height and his canonical height provided by Quake 3.

Which was (obviously) made up long after Doom was made. I'm quite sure it was not done with any particular reference to the source code but, rather, to what they felt was a good height.

"The Doom guy should be a six footer, right?"
"Right."

In Doom, the vertical size of a pixel is 1.2 times the horizontal size.

And if we are going to try and get into the accuracy of measurement, remember that the Doomguy's view camera is set at height 41 which puts his eyes somewhere in his chest.

It''s almost as if id wasn't paying attention to real-world measurements when they made Doom.

Old Post Apr 4 2013 11:43 #
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Maes
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SiFi270 said:
I'm still certain that 9 1/3 units is equal to one foot in height, due to Doomguy's in-game height and his canonical height provided by Quake 3

In that other thread, the -now banned- member Sodaholic used a similar reasoning but using a previous game (Wolf3D). How measurements that appear in different games with different engines (especially when they are expressed in proprietary units) can be of any use, is beyond me.

The only id engine game where a correlation between game units and feet appears, is Heretic (from p_local.h):
code:
#define FOOTCLIPSIZE 10*FRACUNIT
That actually means how much the player's feet should be clipped, not that 10 units = 1 foot, but hey, it's the closest you'll ever get...

And then there are sprite height units vs texture height units to consider: 10 units/ft seem about right for textures, while 8 units/ft seem better when trying to interpret sprite height.

Oh and there's also the whole player sprite being under the floor issue here, so those 56 units may not even have to be fully used....

Old Post Apr 4 2013 12:32 #
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SiFi270
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This is making me cry now.

Old Post Apr 4 2013 12:33 #
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Jimi
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Speedmeter also makes me think it would be interesting to have a travelled distance meter.

Old Post Apr 4 2013 13:51 #
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Nomad
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Enjay said:
And if we are going to try and get into the accuracy of measurement, remember that the Doomguy's view camera is set at height 41 which puts his eyes somewhere in his chest.



Well, makes sense

Old Post Apr 4 2013 14:25 #
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Captain Toenail
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So... does Doomguy take very large strides, or very quick ones?

Old Post Apr 4 2013 15:25 #
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Maes
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Nomad said:
retarded/realistic/doom weapon hold pic

Actually, Doom has the most realistic weapon position of the three depicted, at least if we're discussing proper iron sight aiming, as anyone with proper weapon training will tell you.

Both the "retarded" and "realistic" positions are, in fact, unrealistic, because you can't aim properly using the iron sights. Even shotguns require that you, at least, use their rail sights to point in the general direction you want them to.

You CANNOT precisely aim a weapon by holding it to the side or the flanks. Yeah, there's the "Mexican grip" style or the retarded gangstah sideways-grid style too, but those are just Hollywood bullshit, designed to look cool on camera. And yeah, in the Army I was taught to shoot with a G3 Assault rifle from the hip...trust me, it's not the best position if you intend to hit something beyond 50 meters without wasting an entire clip. It's only good for "pray and spray".

Now, how/when/why videogames post-Doom chose to use the "weapon to the side" style, is a matter for another debate, but there's no doubt that it was popularized by Duke Nukem 3D: almost all previous "Doom Clones" including Quake, ROTT etc. use the "weapons in the middle" style.

I guess depicting the weapon from the sides gives the best compromise between having a big, detailed weapon graphic with little perspective distortion, and leaving the player with a good view of the playfield, while "central" weapons are hard to depict in a detailed manner, look awkward with perspective correction, and can't be overly large without blocking the player's view.

All modern FPS also handwave the fact that you can't possibly aim accurately by holding a weapon to your side and looking forward...that's why they all "cheat" by giving the player a courtesy mid-air crosssight....

But, surprise-surprise, ever noticed how most modern FPS shooters that have a "realistic aiming", "accurate fire" or "zoom fire" mode switch the weapon view to a central one?

Captain Toenail said:
So... does Doomguy take very large strides, or very quick ones?

Neither. He sits comfortably on his BFG scooter, that's why his controls resemble those of a hovercraft.

Old Post Apr 4 2013 15:30 #
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SiFi270
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So what kind of scooter does B.J. Blazcowicz use, and why is it so much more stable than a scooter from who knows how long in the future?

Old Post Apr 4 2013 16:21 #
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Maes
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SiFi270 said:
So what kind of scooter does B.J. Blazcowicz use, and why is it so much more stable than a scooter from who knows how long in the future?

Wait for my next fanfic to get the answer to that one ;-) However, the answer may involve elements of wacky Nazi technology, and the apparent lack of imagination in Nazi architecture (e.g. no height variations, large doorways etc) which facilitates vehicle design.

Old Post Apr 4 2013 16:36 #
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Enjay
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Nomad said:
picture

?

Also, with having a few friends in the military and having had the opportunity of range days with them, I agree totally with what Maes said about weapon position.

Old Post Apr 4 2013 16:50 #
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Old Post Apr 4 2013 20:35 #
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Nomad
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>guys arguing with a joke about weapon views in games

guys

Also, while I understand the gripe about the "side" weapon view, it's kind of a functional design solution for showing the player what weapon they have equipped when they're not using the sights. Realistically when you're not actually aiming your weapon, you're not going to really be holding it in your sight anyway, you're going to be holding it in front of you, usually pointed at the ground. I suspect something more realistic like this will be more common when VR devices like the Rift become more common.

Also it's not that unrealistic for the gun to be off to the side when you're forgetting the idea of "shooting from the hip." Obviously realistically you won't have a floating crosshair in your vision showing you where the bullets are going to go, though. :P

Old Post Apr 4 2013 23:01 #
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Maes
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Nomad said:
Obviously realistically you won't have a floating crosshair in your vision showing you where the bullets are going to go, though. :P

A laser sight might approximate this function, but there's still recoil and weapon weight/balance to deal with. I doubt that you can accurately aim anything heavier/longer than a SMG or a light carbine in this manner.

Plus, in RL, there are countless of situations where you DON'T want a laser sight to give away your position, unless you're 100% certain that your victims will be unarmed, unable to escape and/or ALL dead before they manage to fight back or reach your position.

Of course, if you're only going to to CQ battle in openly hostile territory where stealth doesn't matter at all...go ahead.

Old Post Apr 5 2013 09:23 #
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SandGator
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Guys, let's get back on track here.

4720 units.

Old Post Apr 5 2013 10:41 #
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