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The Doomist
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Before I start, let me state this: Doom 2 is my favourite IWAD, and I love the levels and gameplay in it, so I don't HATE it, just pointing things that I thought could have been better.

ALSO: I know of limitations during that time period, so what I say might not fit up to old PC standards.

One thing I wasn't very fond of was some level design. I didn't like some of the maps because some were kind of weird and unfitting, like Barrels O' Fun. It would better suited as a secret map, rather than an actual level. With some levels, I wish there was more to it, like The Chasm. You're usually just walking on lines, then falling off. It's one of those levels where you wish the engine was fully 3D, bringing a whole new challenge. (Those people only waited 2 years from then...)

This brings me on to the next point: not a lot of engine differences. From what I know, all that changed were a few more linedef actions, new AI for the new monsters, a few new items, and one extra weapon. I really wish they expanded on the engine more, rather than what they already did, adding a few new things wouldn't push a 1994 computer to the limit, would it? But then again, I actually don't know what else they could've added, besides things you would've found in Heretic, so yeah. Take note that I LOVE the Doom 2 monsters, so don't think I hate them. I find that they're a new twist to the Doom monsters.

Now, probably the biggest disappointment to many, the lack of new weapons. I have open arms to the "Super Shotgun", but I wish that even if they made one weapon, I wish it would've been something new, instead of another shotgun. Not to mention, due to the hard-coding, I'm not sure if people could add or take away weapons to vanilla Doom. (Didn't know Doom in the 90's...) Not to mention, it was pretty overpowered, and you find it on the second level! The Doom Wiki says that it's as strong as the rocket launcher, which I may add, you find non-secretly on the third level. Gosh!

Finally, the final boss. I had more trouble trying to shoot my rocket launcher at the right time than I did avoiding those damn cacodemons. It could've been better, but at least it wan't another Spiderdemon, and I thought that the final boss looked cool. Non-sensical, but cool.

That's it. The game is still good for what it is. And remember: this is my opinion, not a fact, but I'm pretty sure no one gives two shits about my opinion anyway, so GOOD DAY PEOPLE!

Old Post 04-29-13 22:13 #
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Suitepee
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I never found the lack of new weapons in Doom 2 from Ultimate Doom to be a problem.
The weapons that were already around seemed sufficient enough in variety to carry over in their usage on the new enemy types in my opinion, although I will agree the Super Shotgun is overpowered as buggery.

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Old Post 04-29-13 23:08 #
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schwerpunk
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My favourite part of Doom II is the new assets it adds for modern mapping. I agree with pretty much everything you said, Doomist. Doom II feels more like a solid expansion pack, than a whole new game.

If they'd waited a while longer and upgraded the engine (say, to HeXenesque levels) then I think we would've got a much more interesting game. What we got is still a barrel o' fun, but for cohesion and pure sense-making in the levels, I think Doom 1 does a better job.

tech bases 4 lyfe /peaceout

Old Post 04-29-13 23:15 #
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Avoozl
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However expansions to most games nowadays are much shorter than the main game, Doom 2 on the other hand has more maps than Doom 1.

Old Post 04-30-13 01:05 #
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Scottland89
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The Doomist said:

This brings me on to the next point: not a lot of engine differences. From what I know, all that changed were a few more linedef actions, new AI for the new monsters, a few new items, and one extra weapon. I really wish they expanded on the engine more, rather than what they already did, adding a few new things wouldn't push a 1994 computer to the limit, would it? But then again, I actually don't know what else they could've added, besides things you would've found in Heretic, so yeah. Take note that I LOVE the Doom 2 monsters, so don't think I hate them. I find that they're a new twist to the Doom monsters.



I can see your points, but with regards with the engine (well game engines in general) I think it's good they stuck with a very similar (if not, down right same engine). If a good engine has been developed it should be built upon, instead of radically changed for sequals.

For example I loved GTA 3, GTA Vice City and GTA San Andreas, with the later being the best for gameplay as it was the same but with minor changes here and there. Saying that hate I GTA 4, cause the new engine changed so much, for the worse imho, to the point I don't feel in control of the game. Diffrence is new engine.

I liked Saints Row, Loved Saints Row 2, Liked Saints Row 3, again main thing is the engine between 1 and 2 were the same but minor changes, while the 3rd had a completly new engine.

Doom had an awesome engine at the time, why fix whats not broken. I can understand a few years later, and yes change doesn't always mean worse (Prefer Source over Goldsrc, and the Quake 3 enginer over the sith engine for half life series and jedi knights series respectivly). Engines do have it's life span, and with Doom 2 I believe it was only begining. while now obviously it's well out of date.

Think the Call of Duty series from 2 onwards show this with using a varirty of the IW engine (I mean look at MW1-3 World at war and the 2 black ops games and don't tell me they all look and feel the same). They play pretty damn well in my opinon. It's time will come but the IW engine is here to stay for now.

Anyway this has gone on a bit longer than intended so I'll leave it at that. Like your post, this is my own opinion, and not fact (bar the stuff about what engines games used, that is fact, though may contain mistakes, if so I'm sorry)

Old Post 04-30-13 01:11 #
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Ledillman
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Talking about the Doom engine, they should done what teamTNT did with Boom engine, you know, staying with Doom engine on Doom 1/Ultimate Doom and make something like the modified doom engine used in Boom for Doom 2 and it's expansions, minor details here and there, that makes it better and very very similar.

And other thing, the weapons, it could have been cool to add more weapons in doom 2 expansions, or, doom 2 itself.

The enemies, i think they're ok but it could have been great to have some new monsters, the fussion of the spider mastermind and the cyberdemon (aka cyber mastermind) should have been a great boss for ultimate doom (episode 4) or Doom 2! it's my opinion of course.

Old Post 04-30-13 01:20 #
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The Doomist
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I find the engine to be a problem because it hardly changed anything. There's nothing wrong with using the same engine, but like some said, Doom 2 was more like an expansion pack than an actual game. The Ultimate Doom actually used the slightly updated linedef actions, I think. I didn't like the expansion so much though... but that's for another thread.


Talking about the Doom engine, they should done what teamTNT did with Boom engine, you know, staying with Doom engine on Doom 1/Ultimate Doom and make something like the modified doom engine used in Boom for Doom 2 and it's expansions, minor details here and there, that makes it better and very very similar.


Yeah something like that would actually be much better. I think it's safe to say that Doom wouldn't even that popular as it is if it didn't have such a supportive and large community. (Just a side-note.)

Old Post 04-30-13 02:17 #
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esselfortium
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An update comparable to Boom wouldn't make much sense for Doom 2, given that Boom's functionality was primarily designed to expand on modding capabilities for users who weren't wanting to hack around in the source code. When one of the mappers at id Software wanted to add new functionality to the game for a level they were working on, they'd ask one of the coders or do it themselves. Sure, it'd have made mappers happy, but the only effect that such a goal would've had on the game itself is that it'd take longer to develop and probably be significantly buggier.

Anyway, in addition to significantly expanding the scope of the monster bestiary and adding the super shotgun, Doom 2's most significant technical enhancement was its ability to handle much larger and taller scenes that it would choke on in earlier versions of the engine. This made a big difference in its ability to create more varied environments, and it definitely had an impact on the direction taken with Doom 2's level design.

Old Post 04-30-13 02:49 #
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Ledillman
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esselfortium said:
An update comparable to Boom wouldn't make much sense for Doom 2, given that Boom's functionality was primarily designed to expand on modding capabilities for users who weren't wanting to hack around in the source code. When one of the mappers at id Software wanted to add new functionality to the game for a level they were working on, they'd ask one of the coders or do it themselves. Sure, it'd have made mappers happy, but the only effect that such a goal would've had on the game itself is that it'd take longer to develop and probably be significantly buggier.





Yes you're right about that, but i mean by boom engine something more elaborate like traslucent lines, wind, more scrolling variety, friction, etc and obviously the limits of the original doom engine removed :-P

Old Post 04-30-13 04:48 #
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Nomad
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Barrels O' Fun had plenty of potential but was limited by Sandy's shitty level design, which really describes 99% of his maps anyway. The Chasm is just full of fuck. That map can go eat a dick.

Old Post 04-30-13 06:03 #
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Vermil
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I've sometimes wondered if the DB Shotgun was a good addition to Doom2, or if it threw the balance of all of Doom2's new bad guys?

Old Post 04-30-13 08:21 #
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Feniks
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I'll say Doom 2 fucking rocks. Actually, I would've never been much into Doom if it hadn't been for Doom 2.

Doom 2 was innovative compared to Doom. Sure, not visually, but gameplay-wise it was a quantum leap. There might be only one new weapon, but it's extremely useful and completely changes the gameplay. What about the new monsters and their attacks that brought the game up to another level? Also, a lot of levels had much more height variation and there were some tricky design ideas, such as Tricks and Traps and The Chasm (yeah, I love that map!).

Each level feels like a separate adventure and it's a helluva fun to play. Some might argue about a couple of filler maps but that's not the whole picture. A number of maps I used to dislike have grown on me over the years.

I'd take Doom 2 over (Ultimate) Doom any time, even though The Shores of Hell are excellent too.

And Petersen was a great designer, full stop. Gameplay over graphics for ever.

Last edited by Feniks on 04-30-13 at 09:43

Old Post 04-30-13 08:25 #
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ReX
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I suspect that players who had the opportunity to play DooM2 when it was first released in 1994 were (and probably still are) quite happy with the game. In 1994 there were few, if any, professional-grade add-on maps for DooM I; having a game that vastly increased the bestiary, and provided new graphics, music, and weapon was exciting and fun.

I recall playing the game in 1994 and being blown away by it; I couldn't get enough of it, and replayed it many times over. In retrospect, admittedly, there are things that id Software could have done differently. But back then I was oblivious to these perceived deficiencies, and thoroughly enjoyed the game. I felt I got every cent's worth of the princely sum of $40 that I paid for the game.

Old Post 04-30-13 14:19 #
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Maes
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For that matter, the engine hasn't been signifincantly upgraded even in the recent XBOX etc. versions: it was proven to be just good old linuxdoom with raised limits (not only that, but the base was NOT something more advanced or less available to the public than the public domain linuxdoom).

Old Post 04-30-13 15:04 #
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qoncept
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I don't know whether Doom II should have had any "more," as I was too young at the time to know what was really expected of a sequel, but I do think it's a much better game than the original (with Ultimate Doom in between). I'm fairly certain it wasn't intended to be a full sequel, it was the commercial version of the game. Ever seen Evil Dead 2?

I prefer the maps of Doom II, but even if you don't, I bet almost all the WADs you're playing are Doom II WADs. I love E4 of Ultimate Doom but it's always such a bummer when I randomly remember I'm not going to find an SSG, and revenents and viles would add so much to the game.

So, yeah, I'd say Doom II is more of an iterative, incremental step forward than a full sequel. And I wouldn't change a thing.

Old Post 04-30-13 16:21 #
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darkreaver
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Dont know if this is on- or off-topic, but;

I'm torn when it comes to Doom 2. The new monsters are awesome and I dont mind the SSG being the only new weapon. OTOH I hate almost every map except for a handful of them.

Old Post 04-30-13 17:30 #
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Snakes
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I imagine that Doom 2 was a result of practicality more than anything else. Doom was enourmously successful from nearly ever perspective - commercially, critically, etc. At the time, I think the popularity of the game may have pushed Id to get the next product out ASAP to capitalize on the success. Doom 2 was just a logical answer - the code was there, all they needed to do was create a makeshift plot and add a few extra items to the mix to create a new experience.

While, from a modern perspective, this is very much an expansion pack, back then it felt like a true, 100% sequel. Plenty of new monsters, locations and items mixed in with a new weapon. Also, I think the SSG was the only new weapon it needed. It's a gun so masterful that it somehow compensated for the arrival of a number of new monsters whilst maintaining balance.

As a final mention: it's a well-known fact that I support Sandy Petersen's mapping skills. It may require a bit of imagination to interpret certain things, but from a pure gameplay perspective, he was far and away the most daring mapper they had.

Old Post 04-30-13 17:43 #
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Maes
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I think most Doom II criticisms here should be directed to Final Doom instead: that was more than 2 years after the Doom II engine was released (and the Doom I engine was updated accordingly), not just a few months apart like Doom and Doom II were, and there were Quake and DN3 to compete with, let alone Heretic and Hexen.

Doom II was basically Doom with a few last minute improvements (many of which made it into the Ultimate Doom engine, too!) and a few extra monsters painstakingly thrown in the (hardcoded) mix, and for what it was, it more than delivered. It was Doom squared, pain and simple. But Final Doom was...well...Doom II all over again. With 64 official levels, OK, but still 2-yo -by then- Doom II. Not that this made it a bad game (in 1996, it was one of the few decent games one could play on a 486).

But don't overdo it with the Final Doom criticism, otherwise here's what'll happen to you.

As for Doom II, my only "criticism" would be -as usual- the level design. They end up looking either like cramped mazes or like Svankmayer-esque, "toybox" like surreal places, rather than Earth structures, due to a combination of limited texture fidelity, limited engine limits, and obviously limited patience/skill when making them. At least Final Doom improved vastly on this aspect, and with Odyssey Of Noises it was made obvious that a decent city level can be made even with the Doom II engine constraints.

Old Post 04-30-13 18:15 #
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Quasar
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The texturing is, IMO, the poorest aspect of DOOM II. Let's see, how do we portray Earth in the 22nd century? Oh I know: wood, stucco, cement, rocks, and brown metal with rivets.

>_>

In terms of setting, it's like the DOOM guy went back in time when he traveled back to Earth from the moons of Mars, which had a few levels that themselves seemed to be nothing but the inside of gigantic, fantastically advanced computers (particularly in E2). You visited places like nuclear reactors, spacecraft hangars, data processing facilities, refineries, and labs.

In DOOM II you visit Dallas, TX, circa 1994, apparently. Even its "space port" holding humanity hostage takes the form of what could best be described as some sort of gigantic pagan stone circle. Of these alleged ships ready to blast off or any sort of devices that would support such, nothing is to be seen.

Everything is rundown and shoddy and ancient looking, and not in a way that successfully implies the Hellish invasion and subversion of reality has advanced enough already to cause that - but rather that's just how it was already.

In choosing Earth for its setting, DOOM II seems to have thrown its artists and designers fully off track.

Old Post 04-30-13 18:39 #
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Da Werecat
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The first one was a proof of concept. At least from a game mechanics perspective. It was a relatively straightforward experience, whereas the sequel was more... I dunno, evolved?

Old Post 04-30-13 19:14 #
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Avoozl
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There's people who complain about a sequal not being anything to do with a previous game (far cry 2 over far cry 1), while there's people who complain about sequals being not much different from the previous game (doom 2 over doom 1) and call it not much different from an expansion, then how should a sequal be done to be considered a sequal? I agree more with the latter.

Last edited by Avoozl on 05-01-13 at 08:32

Old Post 05-01-13 05:18 #
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Scottland89
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Avoozl said:
There's people who complain about a sequal not being anything to do with a previous game (far cry 2 over far cry 1), while there's people who complain about sequals being not much different from the previous game (doom 2 over doom 1) and call it not much different from an expansion, then how should a sequal be done to be considered a sequal? I agree more with the latter.

I'd agree but what about the final fantasy series? The agruememt for it is although the stories have nothing with each other but they play very similarly.

Therefore I'd mention the quake series. With the first 3 none of them share store or feel, with 4 being the only true sequel to 2. Saying all that, all 4,are well loved games.

Think Far Cry 2 problem was That it wasn't any good so people nitpick at it, cause we could make the same arguments with 3 but it is a good game so we don't.

Old Post 05-01-13 10:06 #
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40oz
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Quasar said:
The texturing is, IMO, the poorest aspect of DOOM II. Let's see, how do we portray Earth in the 22nd century? Oh I know: wood, stucco, cement, rocks, and brown metal with rivets.

>_>



That actually doesn't sound too bad. What would you suggest?

I mean, this didn't stop people from designing highly realistic city levels with mostly stock textures before. Ever play Hellfire 2?

Old Post 05-01-13 12:18 #
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Avoozl
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Well the story in Doom 2 does mention the architecture being subverted into demonic creations involving the older materials like wood and stone/rocks.

Old Post 05-01-13 12:20 #
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Maes
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Avoozl said:
Well the story in Doom 2 does mention the architecture being subverted into demonic creations involving the older materials like wood and stone/rocks.


Apparently, there wasn't enough wood on Phobos/Deimos for them to do the same there, but it kinda makes sense for E3 (well, there were at least some sorry excuses for trees and stubs...).

That abuse of the wooden look in Doom II always put me off though. It only works well in limited scenarios e.g. medieval settings, wooden ships, docks, etc. but for the rest it makes everything like wooden shacks made of plywood or theatrical props.

Old Post 05-01-13 12:53 #
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Clonehunter
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Doom II texture choice is more or less when they realized how fun it was to make brown games. As such, Quake was born.

Old Post 05-01-13 13:52 #
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bcwood16
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I liked Doom 2 and some of the maps were fun....but I 'think' I prefer Ultimate Doom because the levels (at least the ealier ones) felt like they had a purpose and were functional. Some Doom2 maps felt like they were made just for the hell of it, they made no sense at all.....some I had no idea what they were supposed to be, sometimes the map name hinted at it?

Old Post 05-01-13 14:02 #
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jute
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Quasar said:
The texturing is, IMO, the poorest aspect of DOOM II. Let's see, how do we portray Earth in the 22nd century? Oh I know: wood, stucco, cement, rocks, and brown metal with rivets.



That's a really interesting point. The anachronistic texturing really gives Doom II a strange atmosphere.

Old Post 05-01-13 18:11 #
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Antroid
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I don't mind the more "hellish" and abstract themes in doom 2, but most of the time it looks like they weren't ever trying at all. Visually and atmospherically I prefer Doom 1 to 2 by a long shot, but compared to Doom 2 with it's new enemies and SSG the gameplay in Doom 1 can seem completely boring - unless you limit yourself savagely in the controls department. Playing SNES Doom on an emulator is still fun for me because it's such a bitch to maneuver in that game, hah.
Although I completely hate levels like tricks and traps and barrels of fun, because even though you can make an argument that they were going for interesting gameplay ideas, that's really not what I'm looking for in games, as stupid as that sounds. Those levels just completely destroy whatever atmosphere you could feel in other maps. And the hell sky in doom 2 is complete garbage, too.

Old Post 05-01-13 18:36 #
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Feniks
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Well, I'd like to ask one question to the graphics buffs. Please, name any Doom 1 maps that look better than "O" of Destruction, The Abandoned Mines or even Bloodfalls. Thy Flesh Consumed doesn't count.

Old Post 05-01-13 18:54 #
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