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Antroid
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Yeeeeah I've always disagreed completely with that quote. Dunno how exclusively he watches porn movies, but I'd rather watch a regular movie or read a book. Videogames are among those mediums for me too for immersion purposes, I mean you're talking to a guy who plays Mario for the atmosphere and has made two SMW hacks where he was focusing on it for most of the levels in place of balanced gameplay. :~X

Also I'm not particularly saying that those stupid-ass names hurt the story, the story wasn't affected by them obviously, they hurt immersion and were very good at pulling me out of the game and reminding me that it's really just a bunch of sometimes lazily made maps that they glued together hastily.

Old Post 05-04-13 03:12 #
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DoomCollector
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I don't think it's strange that Doom II didn't have a lot of content since it was the first commercial release before Doom was released in 1994-1995 whenever it was.

Old Post 05-04-13 17:32 #
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Feniks
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Antroid said:
Plus, hey, Doom 2 had some very questionable gameplay choices as well, like that shootable door thing in map28, which is completely inexcusable.
Yeah, I can partly agree about that. My understanding is that The Spirit World was meant to be abstract and rule-breaking in a way. In general, Doom 2 had a much looser approach to mapping and some so-called mapping rules, compared to Doom and especially Wolfenstein 3D where every exit door looked exactly the same. They were different and much more diverse in Doom 2. I suppose Doom 2 was meant to be some sort of an adventure, and that shootable door was a kind of puzzle to solve. It might be argued how well it was executed, but you get the drift.


Tarnsman said:
McGee and Romero, McGee just tends to pump out more of the stuff we associate with PWADs like Orthogonal Architecture
Frankly, I don't think Petersen was any less influential than McGee or even Romero. There are plenty of PWADs that followed the style of Suburbs, Monster Condo or The Courtyard, even though more people paid tribute to, say, The Inmost Dens.

The lack of bars in Doom 1 is a revelation for me, never really paid attention to that. However, Petersen also used bars in his maps. Suburbs and The Citadel come to mind off the top of my head, and they might have been done before Underhalls.

Anyway, I'm surprised so many people genuinely care about Doom's storyline, aesthetics and its atmosphere. Judging from these forums, they might even make up a majority of Doomers. It's not without reason that plenty of people were excited about the first DTWID project while D2TWID has attracted much less attention. Personally, I enjoy Doom as a whole because of its incredible gameplay and variety, and I dare say Doom 2 particularly excelled in these areas.

Old Post 05-04-13 20:50 #
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Antroid
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Feniks said:
It's not without reason that plenty of people were excited about the first DTWID project while D2TWID has attracted much less attention.


I was INCREDIBLY excited for D2TWID after completing DTWID, but as time went on I lost my excitement. I haven't been looking at the complete maps myself, but I've watched Alfonzo's streams of them and understood the goal and approach of the project better and saw what kind of maps get and don't get approved and honestly I'm not nearly as excited now as I was while in the state of blissful ignorance.

Old Post 05-04-13 21:02 #
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Cell
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Antroid said:
I was INCREDIBLY excited for D2TWID after completing DTWID, but as time went on I lost my excitement. I haven't been looking at the complete maps myself, but I've watched Alfonzo's streams of them and understood the goal and approach of the project better and saw what kind of maps get and don't get approved and honestly I'm not nearly as excited now as I was while in the state of blissful ignorance.

I see. Somehow not D1/UD, but D1/UD remakes have the real spirit and wonder in them, since 70% of the normally playable PWADs are for Doom 2. Seeing all the progression over 30 subsequent maps, along with the well-accustomable-with textscreens after maps 06, 11, 20 and 30 (plus before 31 and 32) turned itself into complete habit, and thus, dullness to be harsh.

Old Post 05-04-13 21:08 #
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Feniks
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Well, I haven't really played through any maps and haven't really observed how the project progressed, but I can't wait for the whole thing to finish. If its goal is to emulate the Doom 2 style as closely as possible, then I'm all for it!

But I'll admit, I had a look at the submissions on the D2TWID site, and I'm really in a quandary about why some maps seem to have gotten finally rejected. For example, zodiac's Welcome to Pain seems to nail the Petersen feel perfectly, at least the screenshots look like that.

Old Post 05-04-13 21:17 #
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Antroid
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I'm of course going to still play through the whole thing, and honestly I was interested in the doom 2 themes way more than the doom 1 ones at some point, but then I realized that people are imitating the mapping styles and not the feeling/atmosphere, which for me are barely connected.

Old Post 05-04-13 22:21 #
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Alfonzo
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Antroid said:
I'm of course going to still play through the whole thing, and honestly I was interested in the doom 2 themes way more than the doom 1 ones at some point, but then I realized that people are imitating the mapping styles and not the feeling/atmosphere, which for me are barely connected.
Although we spend a lot of time bickering over technicalities when milling through D2TWiD submissions, rest assured that before any details are picked apart the map must feel Doom 2 in setting, atmosphere; the whole shebang! It's entirely subjective, of course, but we've found that most players agree on which of the submissions best capture that ethereal quality, and so all that remains is to ensure that they hold up well under the microscope as well. I think we've learned our lesson from DTWiD, where it was precisely this criticism that proved truest of all (visual and technical authenticity over feel), and we're confident we won't repeat.

I can go into further detail if you like. I love talking about Doom 2 :D

Feniks said:
I'll admit, I had a look at the submissions on the D2TWID site, and I'm really in a quandary about why some maps seem to have gotten finally rejected. For example, zodiac's Welcome to Pain seems to nail the Petersen feel perfectly, at least the screenshots look like that.
It was mostly a case of a better map having come along to make for an overall better product. The submission setup with D2TWiD has always been one of allowing any and all standing maps to be trumped by better fitting ones, and when you have 55+ submissions for the project some are unfortunately going to be ousted.

Cell said:
Somehow not D1/UD, but D1/UD remakes have the real spirit and wonder in them, since 70% of the normally playable PWADs are for Doom 2. Seeing all the progression over 30 subsequent maps, along with the well-accustomable-with textscreens after maps 06, 11, 20 and 30 (plus before 31 and 32) turned itself into complete habit, and thus, dullness to be harsh.
Yeah, this is true for sure. I think the only way we can muscle that sensation out of the way where D2TWiD is concerned is to create as great a sense of nostalgia as is possible for those who wish to relive the experience, succeeding as best we can in upholding the project goal.

Doom 2 is a very unique set of maps, for whatever criticisms can be flung at it, and the longer you examine it the more you unearth the quirks and qualities unique to its design. I'm very confident that the community has created something special here, and I hope you agree as well (unless you disliked Doom 2, in which case I hope you thoroughly hate everything about it)!

Last edited by Alfonzo on 05-05-13 at 16:01

Old Post 05-05-13 04:26 #
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Cell
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I do agree, actually. With the project Switcheroom! being made and completed fully, I suppose UD remakes will eventually "jump the shark", the action which was accomplished by D2 way earlier before (2004? I think), but with this happening 9 or 10 years after, it is still quite convincing that the era of Doom2 was more supernatural than its presequel's.

Old Post 05-05-13 15:20 #
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Antroid
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st.alfonzo said:
Although we spend a lot of time bickering over technicalities when milling through D2TWiD submissions, rest assured that before any details are picked apart the map must feel Doom 2 in setting, atmosphere; the whole shebang! It's entirely subjective, of course, but we've found that most players agree on which of the submissions best capture that ethereal quality, and so all that remains is to ensure that they hold up well under the microscope as well. I think we've learned our lesson from DTWiD, where it was precisely this criticism that proved truest of all (visual and technical authenticity over feel), and we're confident we won't repeat.

I can go into further detail if you like. I love talking about Doom 2 :D


Well, me too, but I know it's pretty much impossible to judge just by viewing your streams of those maps (and I probably should not have watched them because some maps are now spoiled for me), and I also think that my perception of the "Doom 2 feel", and even "Doom 1 feel" is heavily muddled by my own fantasies of how those games "could've been", which is why I can say that I love the atmosphere of many Doom 2 maps but still be disappointed every time I actually play them again. Hilariously enough, some of my favorite maps from DTWiD were ones that were excluded from the final build (but present in the beta or whatever the "pre-final" version was), and from your streams I remember liking precisely some of the maps that ended up rejected for various reasons. A couple MAP01s that you said were too complex, one pretty pleasant nonlinear city-type map that apparently didn't have "setpieces", and I think "condemned", because the idea of a level inside a bunch of condemned and half-collapsed buildings was interesting enough to tint my proverbial glasses pink and help me not notice that the map apparently had bad layout or bland texturing or whatever else were it's faults.

Actually I think I'll do as I planned way back when it only got started and record a blind playthrough of D2TWiD for my lp thread, if nothing else than to provide a rather bizarre perspective on the project as someone who is secretly hoping for it to be closer to his imaginary, better version of Doom 2.

Old Post 05-05-13 16:58 #
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qoncept
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Antroid said:


Yep, I think, as silly as that sounds, that's probably my primary problem with doom 2. Of course such names indicate that the team cared less for what I value in any game (even Doom), but the other results of that, such as extreme abstractness, can be chalked up to the theme of hell and whatever. My other problem is probably the hell sky because I will never tire of saying how much I hate it compared to pretty much any other sky :)


It's just pretty amazing to me how different people can see things. The names never meant anything at all to me. Barrels o Fun was one of the very few maps I could remember the name of when I was young. (Tricks and Traps, The Pit, The Chasm, Dead Simple.... that's probably about it.) The "realistic" maps never gave me ANY sort of impression at all. They didn't even abstractly resemble their names in my mind, Downtown excepted.

Oh, Monster Condo always stuck, for whatever reason. Just because it's such a silly name I think.

Old Post 05-06-13 15:36 #
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Antroid
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qoncept said:
Oh, Monster Condo always stuck, for whatever reason. Just because it's such a silly name I think.


Funny story, I've known that one name before I ever played Doom 2. A gaming magazine I was reading had CDs with various stuff including random game music, and one in particular had "waiting for romero to play" (I think that's the track the map uses, right?) under the title of "monster condo". Since it's such an unusual track for a doom game, and it was the only one included like it was meaningful or super-memorable, I was almost led to believe that Doom 2 was, or at least got pretty deep, atmospheric, artistic and shit. Good thing I nearly forgot about that when I actually played it, or else it would've been an even bigger disappointment :D

Old Post 05-06-13 16:30 #
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Avoozl
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I don't think "waiting for romero to play" is unusual with Doom, it's like Sinister from Doom 1, it's probably supposed to be suited to hell maps, those tracks do have an evil vibe to them, "waiting for romero to play" was originally going to be in Doom 1, just watch a tour of ID Software when Romero is showing off the game and you can hear the track playing on the third map.

Old Post 05-07-13 00:31 #
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Antroid
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I always thought it was unusually calm, even more so than E2M4's music from Doom 1, however that one was called.

Old Post 05-07-13 02:24 #
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Cell
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Antroid said:
however that one was called.

"They're going to get you". Never understood its deepest meanings, though.

Old Post 05-07-13 14:45 #
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Scypek2
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Cell said:

"They're going to get you". Never understood its deepest meanings, though.


heh. Sounds a bit more like wolf3d song name. I never liked this tune, it's just so... bland.

Uh.


Oh ah.


Eh.


Ah, uh.


Uh, oh, eh, ah, eh, ah, uh, oh, eh, ah, uh, oh, uh, oh eh, ah, uh oh eh ah, eh ah uh oh, eh ah uh oh ehhhh...
Uh, oh, eh, ah, eh, ah, uh, oh, eh, ah, uh, oh, uh, oh eh, ah, uh oh eh ah, eh ah uh oh, eh ah uh oh ehhhh...(...)

uh.


Ah oh.


Eh...

Old Post 05-08-13 08:42 #
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Antroid
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I love that song, it's just soo bizarre and it made me deathly afraid of that level as a kid.

Old Post 05-08-13 11:22 #
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Clonehunter
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I found a lot of the music in Doom II to be kinda dull compared to Doom 1. Doom II had a few good tracks, but not as many imo.

Old Post 05-08-13 13:57 #
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Avoozl
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I like Doom 2's Map03 music but only for the evilish sounding organ part, I hate that instrument playing at the start of it though.

Old Post 05-08-13 14:03 #
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Antroid
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I like a lot of tracks from both games. In Doom 2 I like that the music got more somber and less actiony. My favs are map05 and map20 (and the intermission track), although I only dislike a few tracks in the game: map02, map04 and map08. Some of the others are really bland, like map06, but still nice enough.

Also the beginning of map03's music seems to be a mix of a clock ticking and pizzicato which is pretty perfect for gloomy music so it's a very good part IMO, I don't know what your problem with it is, Avoozl.

Old Post 05-08-13 14:46 #
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Avoozl
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Well it depends on the midi encoder really, the instrument does sound terrible in standard midi I feel.

Old Post 05-08-13 15:26 #
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Antroid
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Dunno, I like the way it sounds on my pc. Maybe I'm overly passionate towards pizzicato strings because in my mind they are forever associated with the music from American McGee's Alice for some reason or other.

Old Post 05-08-13 16:59 #
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Snakes
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In all honesty, it wasn't until I got my hands on the .mp3's from this site that I really appreciated Doom 2's more somber tracks. They really enhance the moody feeling of a lot of the tracks (Map18 in particular). It also made me realize that a few of them definitely have a sort of "abandoned city" feel to them. Gloom 'n doom... pun not intended.

Old Post 05-08-13 17:00 #
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Shadow Hog
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Some of the early tracks of Doom 2 did seem kind of out-of-place, the first time I heard 'em. I'd gathered that Doom either was all-out rock, or really sinister-sounding music, based on what I'd heard from the first game. And then the second game features rather upbeat jazz in MAP02 and MAP04 (and maybe MAP08 to a minor extent). Okay? Interesting direction to take...

IIRC, the release of the unused tracks shows that they were always considered for inclusion, though, and you definitely get used to it very quickly. Even if they do still kinda stand out.

Old Post 05-08-13 17:51 #
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Antroid
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What I appreciate about the shift in the music style between games is that to me, it reflects the change from the marine being relatively new to and baffled by and terrified of the whole hell thing, where by Doom 2 he's more of an experienced veteran of fighting the demons and the style of music fits the feeling of resignation as opposed to terror, as he realizes that Earth is also taken over, and even if he still has things he must do it's not going to magically solve everything. Someone on these forums described Doom 2's music as "mocking" once and it's really fitting.

But yeah map02's and map04's music tracks are out of place in that context also.

Old Post 05-08-13 17:51 #
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Fernito
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Antroid said:
Yeeeeah I've always disagreed completely with that quote. Dunno how exclusively he watches porn movies, but I'd rather watch a regular movie or read a book. Videogames are among those mediums for me too for immersion purposes, I mean you're talking to a guy who plays Mario for the atmosphere and has made two SMW hacks where he was focusing on it for most of the levels in place of balanced gameplay. :~X

Also I'm not particularly saying that those stupid-ass names hurt the story, the story wasn't affected by them obviously, they hurt immersion and were very good at pulling me out of the game and reminding me that it's really just a bunch of sometimes lazily made maps that they glued together hastily.



If you care so much about the story of a game, I suggest you to play the Marathon trilogy (it can be downloaded for free). Despite the rather silly level naming, it has an incredibly deep and well developed story/backstory. Actually, it is one of my favorite games because of that.


Scypek2 said:
[B]
heh. Sounds a bit more like wolf3d song name. I never liked this tune, it's just so... bland.

Uh.


Oh ah.


Eh.


Ah, uh.

(and so on...)


Thanks, dear sir. You've just made my day! :D

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Old Post 05-08-13 19:25 #
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Antroid
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Fernito said:

If you care so much about the story of a game, I suggest you to play the Marathon trilogy (it can be downloaded for free). Despite the rather silly level naming, it has an incredibly deep and well developed story/backstory. Actually, it is one of my favorite games because of that.



Can I even play it on a (modern) PC?

Old Post 05-08-13 20:48 #
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Fernito
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Antroid said:


Can I even play it on a (modern) PC?



Of course! Everything you need can be found in this link: http://marathon.sourceforge.net/

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Old Post 05-08-13 20:55 #
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Antroid
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Cool, I guess I'll take it with me on a laptop while I go on a bit of a holiday tomorrow. Thanks! Hopefully I can look past the level names!

Old Post 05-08-13 21:20 #
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Da Werecat
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It should be noted, though, that the controls can take time to get used to.

Old Post 05-08-13 22:01 #
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