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Fernito
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Da Werecat said:
It should be noted, though, that the controls can take time to get used to.


I always configured Marathon controls so they are the same than in Doom.

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Old Post 05-08-13 22:11 #
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Da Werecat
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I'm talking mainly about the mouse behavior.

Old Post 05-08-13 22:30 #
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Fernito
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Oh, I never played that game with a mouse, so I couldn't tell :P

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Old Post 05-08-13 23:54 #
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Antroid
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I would probably not even have a large and flat surface suitable for proper mouse movement where I'm going, so I'll have to keyboard it up... (this thread really went into odd places)

Old Post 05-09-13 00:30 #
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DooM_RO
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Doom > Doom 3 > Doom 2

In retrospect, the fact that they reused tons and tons of assets from the previous game is inexcusable, not to mention the ugly levels and very little new stuff. If they had called it Doom: Hell on Earth, it would have been ok but as a sequel, it doesn't do much to stand out on its own except the DBS and better gameplay...which is not enough. The Quake games follow this trend.

Old Post 05-09-13 09:38 #
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DoomUK
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DooM_RO said:
The Quake games follow this trend.

Putting Doom 3 before Doom 2 is one thing, but this statement is just absurd :p

How can Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3 and Quake 4 possibly be interchangeable? Totally different engines, totally different art directions, and with Quake 3, a totally different kind of gameplay.

Old Post 05-09-13 10:25 #
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DooM_RO
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DoomUK said:

Putting Doom 3 before Doom 2 is one thing, but this statement is just absurd :p

How can Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3 and Quake 4 possibly be interchangeable? Totally different engines, totally different art directions, and with Quake 3, a totally different kind of gameplay.



So what if I put it before? Look at how people bitched when the final boss in the Lost Mission was a reskin of the guardian. Imagine if they took half of the stuff from Doom 3, put it in Doom 4 and called it a sequel and slapped 60$ on it. I would be pissed. Doom 2 was not terrible by any means and the additions were worthwhile but it wasn't enough.

When I was talking about the Quake games, I was referring to the first 2, not the others and I was specifically talking about how they looked, sorry for not making things more clear. They were just as nonsensical as Doom 2 and Id did very little to make the levels feel like real places.In short, except the gameplay, there was very little evolution. Why could Irrational and Valve make such wonderful looking levels(for their time) and Id could not? Even the levels in Duke Nukem 3D felt more like actual places.

If levels in it sorta looked like level 26 and 27 from Scythe 2 (because of limitations) then yes, Doom 2 would have been better than 1.

Last edited by DooM_RO on 05-09-13 at 11:05

Old Post 05-09-13 10:53 #
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DoomUK
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DooM_RO said:
They were just as nonsensical as Doom 2 and Id did very little to make the levels feel like real places.

Basically you're saying you would have preferred Doom 2 to be more like Tom Hall's vision of Doom (or whoever it was who originally thought it would be cool to make the environments more realistic than abstract - I should know things like this, but my mind has drawn a blank).

It brings me back to what I said earlier about this idea that Doom 2 was a bad sequel because the environments made no sense. To me, that was the whole beauty of it, just like with the first game. Had it 'evolved' in the way that I think you mean, all of its charm would have been lost.

I could also get into how Quake and Quake 2's environments had a similar charm to them on similar grounds, but this is a very non-Doom topic that's better explored elsewhere.

Last edited by DoomUK on 05-09-13 at 11:32

Old Post 05-09-13 11:25 #
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darkreaver
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DooM_RO said:


Why could Irrational and Valve make such wonderful looking levels(for their time) and Id could not?



You've got it the wrong way around. Id (the Quake games) made wonderful looking levels, while Irrational and Valve did not.

Old Post 05-09-13 11:55 #
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Avoozl
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I think people might be missing the map designers intention behind the maps designs and think they're just random.

Old Post 05-09-13 11:58 #
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DooM_RO
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DoomUK said:

Basically you're saying you would have preferred Doom 2 to be more like Tom Hall's vision of Doom (or whoever it was who originally thought it would be cool to make the environments more realistic than abstract - I should know things like this, but my mind has drawn a blank).

It brings me back to what I said earlier about this idea that Doom 2 was a bad sequel because the environments made no sense. To me, that was the whole beauty of it, just like with the first game. Had it 'evolved' in the way that I think you mean, all of its charm would have been lost.

I could also get into how Quake and Quake 2's environments had a similar charm to them on similar grounds, but this is a very non-Doom topic that's better explored elsewhere.



Not Tom Hall realistic, they were too flat. I would have liked the maps to be an evolved style of maps like E1M2, E1M5, E1M7 and E2M7, my all-time favorite map(ironically completed by S.Petersen).E1M7 and E2M8 from DTWID are also a perfect examples of what I like to see in Doom(before they were mercilessly butchered).Abstract but also somewhat believable and open to interpretation. Basically an improved and more polished Romero style.I really like the abstract level design of the original Doom but Doom 2 takes the realism out of it completely. My version of Doom 2 would have had different weapons and enemies each episode but still based on the originals (basically like Demon Eclipse), at least twice the texture count,higher resolution textures, and more frames for monsters and weapons in order to make animations more fluid, more animated textures to make the world feel more alive, new ways to find secrets, alternate paths and a better HUD (the one in BTSX is the best there is IMO)


darkreaver said:


You've got it the wrong way around. Id (the Quake games) made wonderful looking levels, while Irrational and Valve did not.



Why do you think that System Shock 2 and Half Life had ugly levels?

Last edited by DooM_RO on 05-09-13 at 12:09

Old Post 05-09-13 12:03 #
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DoomUK
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DooM_RO said:
I really like the abstract level design of the original Doom but Doom 2 takes the realism out of it completely.

It always interests me how people have totally different interpretations of things in Doom. You see a degree of realism in Doom's maps, I see none. I think it's a good thing that Doom 2's maps make no sense, you don't. What makes a good-looking map is obviously a very subjective thing.

And they say games aren't a serious art form.

Old Post 05-09-13 12:30 #
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Vermil
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Doom1 and 2 were both abstract. But perhaps the difference is that Doom2's levels were abstract takes on real places we have all seen, while Doom1's weren't.

Doom2's Hell levels were the exception, while not based off any place we have seen (whether Hell is real or not is a debate for another time), we had seen Doom1's take on Hell prior.

Old Post 05-09-13 12:35 #
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Avoozl
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Games were never intended to be artforms, but people can see them as one.

Old Post 05-09-13 12:42 #
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bcwood16
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Avoozl said:
Games were never intended to be artforms, but people can see them as one.


I think System Shock 2 is a pure Artform :)

Sorry gone off topic!

Old Post 05-09-13 12:53 #
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Fernito
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It all sums up in that it is just a matter of taste. For me, Doom 2 is 'perfect' as it is. Doom 1 is also perfect for me, but in a different way. If I had to choose between both, I'd stay with Doom 2, not sure why, but most likely because of the greater fun-factor.

Off-topic: on a side note, if you want to see a perfect blend between true art and videogames, play Braid. That game is just perfect in every aspect, maybe except on its length (a little bit too short).

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Old Post 05-09-13 12:59 #
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Da Werecat
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DooM_RO said:
Look at how people bitched when the final boss in the Lost Mission was a reskin of the guardian.

Times change.


DooM_RO said:
When I was talking about the Quake games, I was referring to the first 2, not the others and I was specifically talking about how they looked, sorry for not making things more clear. They were just as nonsensical as Doom 2 and Id did very little to make the levels feel like real places.In short, except the gameplay, there was very little evolution.

Quake 2 had some really detailed environments, especially compared to the first one. And they looked quite mundane, even though the game was set in an alien world.

Old Post 05-09-13 13:10 #
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bcwood16
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Da DooM_RO said:

Look at how people bitched when the final boss in the Lost Mission was a reskin of the guardian..


DOH!!!!!!

I have not got around to playing that yet.....now its all spoiled......boo!!!!!

Old Post 05-09-13 13:23 #
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GoatLord
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Avoozl said:
I think people might be missing the map designers intention behind the maps designs and think they're just random.


This. Sometimes realistic doesn't mean fun. While I think Doom 2 would have been cool if it had featured at least a few maps with Duke 3D aesthetics, keep in mind that Duke 3D had sine pretty damn tedious or flat out uninteresting maps, which favored realism over gameplay. I wonder what Doom 2 would have been like with a more advanced engine, that's my only real complaint.

Old Post 05-09-13 17:34 #
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DooM_RO
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GoatLord said:


This. Sometimes realistic doesn't mean fun. While I think Doom 2 would have been cool if it had featured at least a few maps with Duke 3D aesthetics, keep in mind that Duke 3D had sine pretty damn tedious or flat out uninteresting maps, which favored realism over gameplay. I wonder what Doom 2 would have been like with a more advanced engine, that's my only real complaint.



This isn't about the engine, it's about aesthetics. Just look at BTSX, a vanilla Doom 2 mod, which blows Doom 2 out of the water (at least for the first 8 maps).

Old Post 05-09-13 18:12 #
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DooM_RO
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GoatLord said:


This. Sometimes realistic doesn't mean fun. While I think Doom 2 would have been cool if it had featured at least a few maps with Duke 3D aesthetics, keep in mind that Duke 3D had sine pretty damn tedious or flat out uninteresting maps, which favored realism over gameplay. I wonder what Doom 2 would have been like with a more advanced engine, that's my only real complaint.



This isn't about the engine, it's about aesthetics. Just look at BTSX, a vanilla Doom 2 mod, which blows Doom 2 out of the water (at least for the first few maps).

Old Post 05-09-13 18:15 #
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Holering
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The Doomist said:

One thing I wasn't very fond of was some level design. I didn't like some of the maps because some were kind of weird and unfitting, like Barrels O' Fun. It would better suited as a secret map, rather than an actual level.



Sort of agree with you on that except I really liked those levels the most (Dead simple, tricks and traps, barrels of fun); these were the levels that really made me happy with Doom2 and I did feel like barrels of fun could of been a secret level. Most of the other levels got boring after the first dozen or so levels for me (13 - 20 except a couple) but then got interesting with map 20 and so forth; didn't like downtown and other similar maps.

My favorite iwad would be Ultimate Doom (along with the Lost Episode: Evil unleashed pwad despite some negative reviews on it; playing the alpha levels, getting a different looking ssg, and killing these beta-like arch-viles in the end was so cool). Don't know if it's nostalgia or what but I feel Ultimate Doom was more atmospheric, immersive, scary and a better balanced game; it was so cool getting the shotgun and chainsaw in Doom (seeing the chainsaw in e1m2 was so awe inspiring while not knowing how to get it).

Doom 2 seems like a good action FPS with a good difficulty and the supershotgun is cool, but I never get addicted to it after the first dozen levels like Ultimate Doom and I don't know why; the city levels get boring and most of the others become kind of numb (except for nirvana and the previous mentioned).

TNT is somewhat the same as Ultimate Doom in that I get addicted and really enjoy it; it was cool starting with a berserk pack in the first level and then exiting to human bbq (very memorable level); some of the best music and levels are in that iwad and I don't understand why Doomers don't mention TNT more.

Plutonia was kinda bleh; it was pretty tough from the start and it felt like I finished playing through a mess (some pretty boring levels like the large city towards the end with broken bridge and cyberdemon shooting rockets from across come to mind; don't like those city levels). Maybe plutonia gave doomers the wrong impression about TNT? Some levels were good to be honest but only very few (Hunted is its saving grace and may be the best level in all four Doom wads).

You might want to try Doom for the playstation. It's one of the best survival horror games on that system (kinda better than resident evil) and it is scary compared to the PC version. Sounds and music were redone with studio grade quality. Graphics and sound make really good use of the playstation hardware (levels are remastered with colored lighting and I believe goraud shading as well); plus you get Doom 2 together with Doom 1. Gameplay is perfect. Only bad thing is there's no unlockables (no mini-games, video endings, alternate play-through, documentary content, or anything; just a brief narration saying "you did it") and you have to use passwords to continue; they didn't even keep the artwork ending from the PC version. Never really played Final Doom on playstation but I know it includes the master levels with tnt and plutonia.

Last edited by Holering on 05-13-13 at 13:57

Old Post 05-13-13 11:39 #
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Avoozl
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PSX Doom was good but I felt Doom 64 was much better.

Old Post 05-13-13 11:44 #
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Holering
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qoncept said:
I'm fairly certain it wasn't intended to be a full sequel, it was the commercial version of the game. Ever seen Evil Dead 2?


Ha! That's a great analogy there. Never even crossed my mind after almost 20 years. Doom 2 to Doom does seem just like the Evil Dead 2 to Evil Dead movies! Not really a full sequel but like a new start with the rest being all new. Heck I even have the same sort of feeling towards the movies...

To Antroid:

You have very interesting posts in regards to your preference of Doom. Though it seems your preferences would be desirable I did enjoy the maps you mentioned such as barrels of fun and dead simple and found the names of them to be very cool (these quirks are what made Doom 2 a good game for me). Think your tone sounds like it could explain why Doom is better than Doom 2 (at least for those who think it is such as me), but I think a game should have some good quirks and not become a drama.

Doom was so cool with the intermission screen and episodes. It gives a better sense of progression and accomplishment unlike Doom 2 which is seemingly painful (it's like they didn't think about rewarding the gamer and threw all the levels together with no connection). There's hardly an ending to go with Doom 2 on top of it (the ending artwork of lost episode: evil unleashed pwad is the best and the unique intermission screen looks and goes great with Ultimate Doom; if anyone plays it you better use Eternity!). Was rewarding the player with simple progression links and a cool ending in Doom 2 beyond ID's ability?

Last edited by Holering on 05-13-13 at 13:51

Old Post 05-13-13 12:04 #
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Ragnor
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Holering said:
TNT is somewhat the same as Ultimate Doom in that I get addicted and really enjoy it; it was cool starting with a berserk pack in the first level and then exiting to human bbq (very memorable level); some of the best music and levels are in that iwad and I don't understand why Doomers don't mention TNT more.

Plutonia was kinda bleh; it was pretty tough from the start and it felt like I finished playing through a mess (some pretty boring levels like the large city towards the end with broken bridge and cyberdemon shooting rockets from across come to mind; don't like those city levels). Maybe plutonia gave doomers the wrong impression about TNT? Some levels were good to be honest but only very few (Hunted ranks as one of the best levels in all four Doom wads).



TNT is disliked by many because of some really bad textures and a couple of ugly maps. I would assume people have long since gotten over the "betrayal" of selling it to id. Antroid is vehemently opposed to everything TNT stands for for example.

I agree with you on the feel of TNT, like Ultimate Doom, it has a very strong sense of adventure, even more so if you pay attention to the story id came up with for Final Doom (A story so awesome it's returned to in TNT2: Devilution, where Map 20 is the hellship missing from TNT, since the story was thought up after TNT was made). The realism in places really add to the feel that your actually working towards something, even if the execution is bad in places like Habitat. Ive always wanted this in Doom 2 as well, I can be seen arguing about this kind of thing in the Doom 2 In Name Only thread.

Ive always held the story to these games tight, and Doom 2 is the worst offender. Ive yet to see the story properly take form in a wad yet, though I have high hopes for D2INO, which will be the closest yet.

It's a simple concept really; Enter spaceport, fight your way to the heart of the starport and disable the barrier so that the remaining human population can evacuate. Then you fight to the heart of the invasion source through a city, fight your way through the demonic castle thats been set up around it, then descend through another segment of Hell, this time absorbing various earthly aspects, and destroy the source.

The Courtyard and The Citadel are easily two parts of the castle at the end, Gotcha is kind of dodgy but can still hold up to that theme in a way. It should probably be called The Portal or something instead.

Old Post 05-13-13 13:54 #
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DooM_RO
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^

It also had some pretty good looking maps. Hanger and Stronghold were both aesthetically pleasing. Open Season also felt like a proto Doom 3...sorta.

Old Post 05-13-13 15:11 #
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Antroid
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Holering said:
Though it seems your preferences would be desirable I did enjoy the maps you mentioned such as barrels of fun and dead simple and found the names of them to be very cool (these quirks are what made Doom 2 a good game for me).


Different strokes for different folks, or however the saying goes. To me those are pretty much the worst part about Doom 2.

Although you bring up a good point with the intermissions and such, I didn't even think of that, the map screens in Doom 1 and the complete lack of them in Doom 2 was also an example of what I felt was a step in the wrong direction and just another indication of their lazy-ass approach. There was no need gameplay-wise for the intermission maps in Doom 1 but id made them regardless, even with a cool gimmick which was the Tower of Babel building as you progress. This difference shows quite a lot honestly and as I now remember this was also a big disappointment for me when I played D2. D1 feels more like an actual game and D2 feels like a bunch of randomly selected custom levels hurriedly arranged into three styles with a sprinkle of a couple new monsters and a gun thrown in. And a story born out of sleep deprivation and last day deadlines.


Ragnor said:
Antroid is vehemently opposed to everything TNT stands for for example.

Not really, I'm not against their attempts at things like sector furniture or that one truck in that one map or more attempts at actual places for the levels and just things that look like something with the intent of looking like something and not just prettying up a level. And a couple music tracks were nice. However I think that besides that, TNT is a steaming pile of crap: absolutely unforgivable new textures, some similiarly unforgivable new music tracks, and a lot of the levels are just such utter bland and stupid crap that I can't honestly like the wad as a whole whatsoever. And it's outside of any context of who made it and whether or not it is commercial and whatever, I don't even know much about that.

Old Post 05-13-13 15:41 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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DooM_RO said:


This isn't about the engine, it's about aesthetics. Just look at BTSX, a vanilla Doom 2 mod, which blows Doom 2 out of the water (at least for the first few maps).


I'm curious how BTSX would run on a 486.

Doom 2's techbases are easily on par with Doom's aesthetically. To be honest I prefer the Doom 2 tech themes over Romero's STAR* wallpaper, and it seems like id agreed if the Jag version is anything to go by. Doom 2's city levels are something that had never been done in an FPS before (Since people love bringing Duke3D up when it comes to cities, all Duke's really have going for them over Doom is grittier, more appropriate textures). Hell's got some really good looking levels too.

Old Post 05-13-13 20:04 #
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DooM_RO
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Dragonsbrethren said:

I'm curious how BTSX would run on a 486.

Doom 2's techbases are easily on par with Doom's aesthetically. To be honest I prefer the Doom 2 tech themes over Romero's STAR* wallpaper, and it seems like id agreed if the Jag version is anything to go by. Doom 2's city levels are something that had never been done in an FPS before (Since people love bringing Duke3D up when it comes to cities, all Duke's really have going for them over Doom is grittier, more appropriate textures). Hell's got some really good looking levels too.



I'm quite sure someone used a 486 to test DTWID. Maybe the same person could try BTSX just for fun.

Old Post 05-13-13 20:10 #
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Antroid
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I always thought that the vanilla limits are tight enough so that you can't really do something that would lag a machine that played the original games fine?.. I guess the amount and size of loaded textures makes a big impact? Maybe even the complexity of the music files.

Old Post 05-13-13 20:44 #
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