On multiplayer difficulty (co-op)

Am I the only one who is slightly irritated at wads like Scythe 2 and Alien Vendetta (and many others) just slapping in cyberdemons on level 2 just because its coop? I appreciate that its significantly easier with the addition of a partner, but on wads like these, often I want to simply try them out with a more casual partner who, frankly, will have their hands full with 'just' something like AV on UV difficulty. I'd honestly like to preserve the original experiance too, just with a partner.
With this in mind, is there a quick way via Doombuilder to just remove the Things added with only the multiplayer tag so I and others can play the wad on the original 'single player' settings?

Does anyone else feel the same? Should coop mode add extra monsters?

I feel coop should add new monsters but not if they're higher tier monsters meant for later maps than the starting ones.

Does anyone else feel the same?

On HMP and lower, yes, it's ridiculous to push everything to eleven.
On UV, everything is fair game.

As for quickly removing MP monsters: in DB2, go to View -> Configure Things Filters. Create a new filter with every square "filled", except Multiplayer which you want to only "check". Now, selecting this specific filter in the overview will give you every Thing tagged multiplayer, and only Things tagged multiplayer. You can then zoom as far out as needed, select the whole map and delete all unwanted monsters in one go.

Unfortunately, this'll also nuke the extra co-op items... If you wanted to keep these, using the above filter you could just manually delete every monster one by one.

Wordy said:

Does anyone else feel the same? Should coop mode add extra monsters?

Yes, and yes.

On the latter point, I'm finding that I'm adding extra monsters for co-op as a matter of course with my latest level set: I usually work out pistol-start difficulties from obscenely-hard, and scale it down (rather than the reverse) and occasionally there's a monster placement that I really like and want to keep, but it ruins the pistol-start balance a bit. I flag these as 'multiplayer'.

With infinite respawns in which to kill them, it isn't such a big issue. But it does sound a big excessive.

I think TNT MAP01 did the same thing.

I like the idea of additional baddies on MP, may help provide an adequate challenge for areas that can be mindlessly steamrolled with multiple players, especially the case if you're playing with double ammo or respawning items. It also allows for crazy players to try -solo-net :)

Can't say I'm a fan of the infamous MP-cybs though, they're mostly just tedious.

fraggle said:

I think TNT MAP01 did the same thing.

I thought it only had one Cyberdemon and in that small outside space making it easier to get or something.

Thanks for the doombuilder tip phml, now to laboriously delete all these cyberdemons.

So far it seems the verdict is that people are fine with more monsters, but fuck cyberdemons on TNT level 1. Or any early level in fact. It not only is a tedious grind fest, but it removes atmosphere or build up and replaces it with a silly 'PUT BIG BADDIE HERE' type of feel.

Can any future wadders please avoid the 'cyberdemons in coop' theme because, frankly it sucks.

There are good and bad ways to place multiplayer only cybs. I don't like how this is done in the early HR maps: they are sitting in very small rooms where it takes a long time to kill them. This doesn't add anything to the gameplay and just wastes your time. On the other hand, some Doom 2 levels do this very well. Remember maps 11, 13, 15, 26? Here the cybers control large part of the map, forcing the players to always look around and be active.

I don't really care about the build up and stuff, I'm fine with megawads where all weapons and monsters appear on map01.

I wonder what's with the 4p start in TNT MAP01 as they can get the 3 guns while the others can't. One can get the RL at the blue key and the BFG at the exit though.

No. Randomly slapping Cyberdemons around is the best coop placement, unless you hate fun. So I think you all should just stop hating fun.

Memfis said:

There are good and bad ways to place multiplayer only cybs. I don't like how this is done in the early HR maps: they are sitting in very small rooms where it takes a long time to kill them. This doesn't add anything to the gameplay and just wastes your time. On the other hand, some Doom 2 levels do this very well. Remember maps 11, 13, 15, 26? Here the cybers control large part of the map, forcing the players to always look around and be active.

I don't really care about the build up and stuff, I'm fine with megawads where all weapons and monsters appear on map01.

Meh.. On most of those Doom 2 maps you're really forced to deal with the Cyberdemons before moving on. Otherwise you're eventually going to get blindsided and killed by a rocket.

I was very concious of how my levels would play in cooperative when I was designing my megawad -- UAC Ultra 2. It's unfinished at the moment, and I've only released the first episode (out of five) but when it's done, it should have 30 maps with enough varied ways to play it that should cater to whatever kind of Doomer you are (at least I hope so anyway)

UAC Ultra 2 has added coop monsters but the way I use them is kinda unique. Playing UAC Ultra 2 on Cooperative on skill 4 doesn't add any new monsters. I mainly did this so that it could be played on Nightmare Cooperative. If the players do want extra monsters, they would have to play on skill 1, 2, or 3.

Few extra coop monsters are added to the maps, but each map has a bunch of isolated teleport ambush rooms outside the map full of coop exclusive monsters. When a player reaches an important key or switch, monsters start teleporting in all over the map (not just in the location of the event) That way, no matter where the players are in the map, if they're side by side with each other, or scattered in different areas, they can all be a part of the action. Pretty soon areas become flooded with imps, pinky demons and cacodemons similar to Skullag/Zandronum's Invasion game mode, except less scripted.

I don't know many other people's opinion's, but I feel that's the best way to incorporate coop monsters in a map. And since you (Wordy) don't like added coop monsters at all, you might be perfectly comfortable playing my levels on skill 4.

I try to keep the map the same for the coop players. A few more copies of existing monsters, maybe. No cyberdemons.
It should present similar play for a coop team, not be radically different. I like to stick to the level theme, which is not to just throw monsters at whoever dares enter.

If a slaughter version of a map was desirable (for coop, etc.) then a separate slaughter version can be adjusted appropriately.
By adjusted, I mean enlarge the fighting areas, add a few alternative passages, and some high and low fighting platforms.
Then a cyberdemon could be included.