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BloodyAcid
Senior Member


Posts: 1275
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Ok, so recently I (finally) got my friend into Doom. However, it's very hard to explain all the concepts of monsters, weapons, running, and generally completing levels. Is there any concise way to explain to him?

I've tried letting them take lead for the first few levels in classic Doom 2, hinting at secrets or when they get stuck.

Last edited by BloodyAcid on 06-15-13 at 05:11

Old Post 06-15-13 04:46 #
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XCOPY
Junior Member


Posts: 142
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PROTIP: Ultimate Doom first episode (that will teach him how to take cover and when)

and then

PROTIP[2]: A level with mostly non hitscanners (dodging like a boss)

Don't brush an arch-vile and revenant on his face so early, those are frustrating to beat.

Old Post 06-15-13 05:31 #
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Clonehunter
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Also, if you want them to SP don't assume that any DM matches you may of had with him in the past will help him much.

Old Post 06-15-13 05:46 #
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Wordy
Green Marine


Posts: 33
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With niche hobbies like Dooming its well worthwhile to use the 'trojan horse' approach.

Give him the nicest looking, GZ doom levels, or just use something like brutal doom which has a good gimmick to it.

Once he's laughing at the violence of playing a silly old game, introduce AV.wad and so on, casually mention a few things about trying it 'the way it was meant to be done'.

Soon enough he'll be talking about how detailed gothic 99 levels are, in 2013.

Old Post 06-15-13 13:33 #
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Xaser
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I'm going to have to heartily disagree with that. One should start by playing the real game, then adding mods later if desired.

Old Post 06-15-13 17:59 #
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WildWeasel
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Wordy said:
or just use something like brutal doom which has a good gimmick to it.

Brutal Doom is not friendly to newcomers. I find it makes the game entirely too hard, even for having a lot of experience playing Doom.

Old Post 06-15-13 18:02 #
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Wordy
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Its not the difficulty which will scare off newcomers trust me - its the lack of freelook, strange weapons and very basic animations. One of the first new reactions I get is something along the lnes of 'wow, that 3 frame ssg reload'.
Brutal Doom smooths these over along with providing a fun gimmick which is a good entry into an older fps like Doom without being too much arcane 90s at once. Naturally you wouldn't just load up Alien Vendetta map 26 with brutal doom - wads like that would be used as a future entrypoint for trying out vanilla doom or maybe just with less fundamentally changing mods.

Old Post 06-16-13 10:42 #
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Phml
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Brutal Doom is only a fun gimmick if you have terrible taste, and why would you want a friend with terrible taste? Not to mention if he actually blurts out stuff like "that 3 frame reload" while he rants, he's probably autistic. Do you keep him around just to feel superior? To feel better about yourself? So he's pulling the fat chick away while you go for the hot one? That's horrible. Don't be that kind of friend. :/

That said, I definitely agree with you regarding lack of freelook and basic animations being some of the biggest showstoppers for newcomers. Brutal Doom just ain't the solution, unless you're part of the "ain't" demographic.

Old Post 06-16-13 11:31 #
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Wordy
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I think you're taking a great deal for granted in your post Phml. My friend is a uni graduate and one of the smartest guys I know, but anyone with consistant exposure to newer graphics will be struck by some of the more.. basic aspects of a 90s fps.

Also, I am not a great fan of Brutal Doom - I'm the type who plays in GLBoom with no freelook and enjoys the later scythe 2 levels on UV. However I can attest to how useful it is for bringing new people into the fold. It's a fun blast for people and most tend to enjoy it, and while I'd prefer to just get straight into the Doom I enjoy with my friends, I'd prefer to ease them into it. Brutal Doom is a good way to do that and one which I have provenly used to good effect in that regard.

As to why would I want a friend with terrible taste? Well I don't particularly judge people on their gameplay choices, there are other redeeming factors which may just override 'likes brutal doom'. I hope you genuinely know this and were posting tongue in cheek.

Old Post 06-16-13 12:59 #
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Jayextee
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Brutal Doom is an extreme example. Showing it to a newcomer is akin to taking a virgin to a fetish ball and having them blindfolded, flogged, and then anally-penetrated with a large dildo - and then telling them "that's what sex is like".

Get on some aesthetically-pleasing Vanilla (because compatibility) stuff -- if the levels look gorgeous for a mid-'90s game, maybe the basic animations can be overlooked.

And, you know, the gameplay won't be ruined.

Old Post 06-16-13 13:08 #
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Doomkid92
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Brutal Doom certainly seems to be bringing in the youngsters/newer crowd, it's mainly because of the ironsights and it's playability in a mouselook-supporting port. The somewhat comedic gore seems to help too, though no mod comes anywhere close to the everlasting impact of vanilla Doom.

I think a better idea is to show someone a mod like Beautiful Doom, if animations are the main concern. So long as they can look freely, they should be happy - I was stoked when I first discovered ZDoom because of this feature above all else and it really takes that "old" edge off for a newcomer.

Old Post 06-16-13 14:06 #
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Mr. T
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Posts: 1477
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BloodyAcid said:
Ok, so recently I (finally) got my friend into Doom. However, it's very hard to explain all the concepts of monsters, weapons, running, and generally completing levels. Is there any concise way to explain to him?

I've tried letting them take lead for the first few levels in classic Doom 2, hinting at secrets or when they get stuck.



Doom needs explaining? Just turn on IDDQD for them maybe IDKFA if you are feeling nice ;-)

Old Post 06-16-13 14:57 #
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joe-ilya
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Beautiful Doom , dot

Old Post 06-16-13 15:05 #
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Phml
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I hope you genuinely know this and were posting tongue in cheek.


I'm not above making fun of myself. You were right calling me on it too. No offense meant to you or your friend. :)

I'd rather point a newcomer friend towards GZDoom, possibly with dynamic lights, using carefully selected, aesthetically pleasing PWADs, and perhaps perkristian's weapon mod or other similar enhancements; but if Brutal Doom works for other people, more power to them.

Truth be told, within my own clique I get the feeling it's the lack of a cohesive whole, once you start hunting for mods to fix specific issues, that turns them away from the experience. They want games to go from A to Z, and to be done with it forever once they beat it, and expect consistency during their one and only playthrough. Coupled with Doom 2's fairly abstract level design, it's hard to make them relate to the whole thing.

I've had a little more luck getting people to play through Doom E1, and to a lesser extent the other episodes; but Doom 2, TNT, Plutonia or PWADs? Forget about it. There has to be some narrative, some point to the game beyond just having fun shooting stuff, otherwise it's not worth it. Even if that narrative is just "kill the bad guy because he's bad", or that point "kill dudes to level up so you can kill more dudes". :)

It's the same in just about every other game, too, save for one: L4D 1. Somehow, we played dozens of custom maps in co-operative. I wonder if it's because the base game is so light on traditional expository telling - and reinforces the concept of "exit rooms" so well, making it a story centerpiece as well as a game goal, players accept that as the norm and a custom campaign is indistinguishable from the official content in that aspect. Just as well, could be because they loved the game and the atmosphere. Could also be a freak event and me overanalyzing stuff.

Old Post 06-16-13 15:51 #
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wesleyjohnson
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My best experience is from playing COOP. Then two different players of different skills can still play together on most wads (as long as pillar hopping is not required). It is better than just hovering over their shoulder, which most people find irritating.
Let the newbie lead and only warn them of fatal pitfalls.
Back them up in firefights with tougher monsters, and they get to see how you do it.
Sometimes they discover something on the map that you did not know about.

If you actually found a concise way to explain everything to him, you would probably spoil half the fun of finding out this stuff over the several years it usually takes.

Old Post 06-17-13 22:29 #
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Phml
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^ Pretty good advice. Plus, playing the support role, fighting just enough and being at the right spot at the right time to prevent your buddy from getting killed, while at the same time making sure you're not stealing the show while doing so, can be a fun balancing act putting challenge back in games/maps you've already mastered.

Old Post 06-17-13 22:55 #
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MegaTurtleRex
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I mostly play with Chocolate Doom but I find Brutal Doom fun, not sure why there's so much hate\elitism against it D:? Games supposed to be about fun.

I introduced quite a few people in a PC gaming forum to Doom through Brutal Doom, these being people who only play games that get 9/10 from IGN or w/e.

Old Post 06-18-13 13:16 #
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hex11
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It's not hard to learn DOOM. Just install the shareware episode for them in DOSBox or with Chocolate Doom, and answer any questions, but don't give anything away unless probed. The game already introduces the concepts in a gentle way (E1M1 *is* a tutorial) and it's a lot more satisfying if they figure out the tricks and secrets on their own instead of you showing them. Let them watch the built-in demos too, just like you would before playing real arcade games. The game is self-teaching...

Old Post 06-18-13 15:45 #
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schwerpunk
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@ MegaTurtleRex: I got back into Doom when Brutal Doom came on my radar. I played it, and it was awesome. Since then I've become an elitist vanilla prick, though. I wouldn't have even got Doom Builder or signed on to these forums if hadn't been for Brutal Doom, so it's definitely a good gateway Doom for gamers used to more modern shooters.

Regarding the OP: depending on the gamer's level of experience, you'll want to approach it differently. Although I think the best way would be to set them up with ZDoom (it's the most accessible port IMO) and let them play on their own. If they have any questions, answer them. But you should be able to just let them loose. Doom is fun enough without the need for coaxing.

A while ago I introduced my SO to Doom. In her case, she hadn't played a first person shooter other than the adventure game Unfinished Swan (I admit, it was part of my attempt to groom her into a first-person gamer), so I set her up in -nomonsters so she could explore the levels and look for secrets at her own pace. There are still hazards like NUKAGE and crushers, so she still found it pretty exciting.

Old Post 06-18-13 17:18 #
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Jayextee
Darth Jrrr


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MegaTurtleRex said:
I mostly play with Chocolate Doom but I find Brutal Doom fun, not sure why there's so much hate\elitism against it D:?


Can't speak for anyone else, but here's my two cents:

Brutal Doom is a diversion, and quite an amusing one. But it's not Doom at all, it's like a parody of Doom from the same school of aesthetics as, say, Mortal Kombat. It may be balls-to-the-wall (a phrase I use whilst not knowing what the fuck it means, but surely I'm using it correctly) fun and a few giggles; but the balance of the game is shifted in a way that will render 99% of decent PWADs barely-playable.

If you want gore, iron-sights, gore, bad comedy, gore, fatalities, gore, kill bonuses, gore, comic references and gore, that's fine Brutal Doom is for you. But only occasionally do I personally want these things.

Unlike its Brutal counterpart, the bare-bones Vanilla/Chocolate Doom experience is solid for me, nigh on 100% of the time.

Old Post 06-18-13 17:25 #
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Blue Shadow
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Does Doom need to be taught or introduced, in the first place? I mean, it's the grandfather of all FPS games, the most simple and the least complex when compared to modern first-person shooters. You don't need someone to teach you the game or ease you through it. Just load it up and play it like any other game and experience it yourself.

Also, if you're interested in the game, you'll take it as is. Using mods is not the way to introduce someone to a game. They need to experience the original game, first, before delving into mods and such.

Old Post 06-18-13 22:49 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Just lob an easily-accessible port his way. No mods though. Let him run riot of his own accord through the IWADs as they were designed. If he likes it, then Mission Accomplished.

If, however, he gets all funny about the pixels, limits and animations of an early 90's fps, then he probably ain't all that smart after all.

Old Post 06-19-13 01:31 #
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hex11
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Why even give them an advanced port when they first play? It's not like people can't enjoy a game for what it is. Does anyone complain that the original Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, Castlevania, Final Fantasy, etc. are too pixely, or do they just accept them for what they are and enjoy them?

Old Post 06-19-13 14:03 #
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Phml
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Does anyone complain that the original Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, Castlevania, Final Fantasy, etc. are too pixely


They kind of do. Part of the reason we see all these HD remakes being made, and then played by millions, and only niche communities sticking with the originals.

Last edited by Phml on 06-19-13 at 14:27

Old Post 06-19-13 14:19 #
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Hurricyclone
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Also the fact that the "millions" who play the HD remakes most likely don't own or have never even heard of the NES or any other old console.

Old Post 06-19-13 15:08 #
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hex11
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What about arcade games like Darius or The Ninja Warriors, which had amazing graphics (I guess that also includes various neo-geo carts). Surely people are playing the originals with MAME or various emulators. But they are very old, probably older than many gamers themselves.

What about stuff like Mortal Kombat and others where the gameplay was fine-tuned and had a real competitive scene. Don't they want to see how they fare on the original?

What about 8-bit games with "cute" graphics, like Bubble Bubble, Pengo, etc. Wouldn't people still find those appealing?

I don't actually know what "HD" remake means. I've played various remakes, mostly fan-made engines to run old games natively on modern OS, instead of needing to run an emulator. Examples: Chocolate Doom, Chaos Strikes Back (Dungeon Master), REminiscense (Flashback), SCUMMVM (a whole bunch of stuff!) But generally these tend to be pretty faithful to the original, even though they may have optional enhancements. Personally, I find it interesting to experience the original game, as close as possible to how it was released. If some changes are made (even in the guise of improvements) they can dilute that experience, and I enjoy it less because it feels like I'm not getting the real thing. Of course there are other problems too, like I have a lame widescreen LCD instead of a nice CRT, so I can only ever get so close.

In some cases the original game has various annoyances, and a remake can bring welcome improvements. Example: some text adventure parsers don't have good line-editing or history, but modern interpreters add those nice features without touching the rest of the game.

Old Post 06-19-13 18:11 #
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