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doomguy93
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GoatLord said:
It's a shame E3M6 is such a BITCH to navigate, because it has some really interesting areas and is one of the more experimental/odd maps in Doom 1.


It really is a total bitch to navigate. I always forget how to beat that level because it is so damn confusing to find the keys/ exit.

Old Post 12-03-13 18:35 #
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myk
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Memfis said:
Doom 1 might be more elegant looking with better textures but is a lot more flat and closed in design, almost like Wolfenstein 3D. Only in Doom 2 id really explored the third dimension of the game and vast open areas (Doom 1 had only one such map - E3M6). I think both are well designed for their time and way too different to say which is better.
In addition, people also tend to set stuff like extra weapons and monsters apart as if that were not part of level design, but it is. If not, a map would be a static piece that has little to do with actually playing it. You can't decontextualize mapping from any element used in a level (or around it) if you look at it as a "living" playing piece, rather than just the output of a designer from a level-design application. The artistic design element in itself, in the exercise and process of making maps, can also be valued, but I would never do so to the point that the playing-value of a level comes in at second place.

I tend to simply acknowledge the different best points of each game, which are somewhat exclusive because their design directions vary a bit due to technical differences and aims. I also see both as part of one game in two sections, not as two games. Each without the other would feel more incomplete.

I have a slight preference for DOOM II because it realizes what playing DOOM is with more potency, but not without acknowledging what DOOM gets right by doing things its own way.

Old Post 12-03-13 18:47 #
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Memfis
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Maybe the author of e3m6 was afraid that people will miss a lot of stuff sunce it's such an open nonlinear map with many optional rooms, so he made it a bit confusing to ensure that people explore everything. :)

Old Post 12-03-13 19:21 #
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Zed
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I like/dislike them equally. Both have great (e.g. E1M1, MAP06) and awful (E3M1, MAP08) maps. I'm really not sure, I probably prefer Doom I, but not by much.


Eris Falling said:


On the plus side, dew has a shiny new custom title now :P



Hahaha, so the kid's no longer feral?

Old Post 12-03-13 20:05 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Are you guys who think Doom looks better comparing Romero's Doom maps to Sandy's Doom 2 maps or something? Almost all of Doom 2's maps are on par with the E1 maps visually. McGee was the first overdetailer and Romero realized that using a texture series with obvious repeats was pretty stupid if he was never going to align textures. Sandy took a turn for the worse, IMO, but the other two did a great job visually.

Like Memfis and myk said, you can't just separate the maps from their gameplay, and Doom 2 wins hands down in that department.

Old Post 12-03-13 20:42 #
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Pirx
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Jayextee said:
Yes. Because episodes.

No. Because monsters.




pretty much this, imo.

i prefer doom's episodic structure and would have liked if UD expanded it into 6 episodes which led to a showdown with a super-boss then, much like quake went.

and on the monsters side, doom's enemies are rather plain compared to revs, mancs or viles. and the ssg makes shooting tough monsters much less boring.



Luke Dacote said:
Overall, yes I think Doom 1 has better level design. I just find them a lot more enjoyable and atmospheric. For me, Doom 2 is good, up until the city levels which I hate. They're too large, overly complex and drag on forever. And the hell levels aren't that great either. Personally, I'd take E3 of Doom 1 anyday over the hell levels of Doom 2. At least they had a distinct feel and didn't drag on for too long.




right, i remember how long it took me to find the exit on map 15 and 19, those were just too large and nonsensical. the chasm effectively stopped my first playthrough of doom 2 for quite some time until i accidentally found the exit (didn't know cheat codes back then). those maps should have been a bit smaller.

Old Post 12-03-13 21:43 #
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Piper Maru
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I think Doom has better level design than it's sequel. I really dislike the levels in Doom II. The only thing I like about Hell On Earth are the monsters and the overpowered super shotgun. Even though I prefer the regular shotgun.

Old Post 12-03-13 23:14 #
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Crasger
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I like the look and feel of the Doom 1 maps.
But I like the extra features and the monsters of the Doom 2 maps...

Can somebody make a WAD that has that Doom 1 charm to it, but with the extra items of Doom 2?

__________________
Wow look at this insignificant text.

Old Post 12-03-13 23:33 #
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doomguy93
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Crasger said:
I like the look and feel of the Doom 1 maps.
But I like the extra features and the monsters of the Doom 2 maps...

Can somebody make a WAD that has that Doom 1 charm to it, but with the extra items of Doom 2?



Doom does have a different feel to it than Doom 2.

I wish Doom 2 was more like Knee-Deep in the dead. I also agree that the new super shotgun and monsters gives it a nice charm. In a way, it seems like it is a compensation to lack of good level design.

It sounds like a good idea to make a wad with the same Doom 1 charm to it. Unfortunately, I'm not that good at making single player Doom wads. However, I am good at making deathmatch and ctf wads for Doom 2.

You can check them out here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/p...S+12_2_2013.zip

Old Post 12-04-13 01:23 #
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HK!D
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Kind of a version of what Crasger said, I think the Doom 1 maps look better, but the Doom 2 maps are more fun to play.

Old Post 12-04-13 01:36 #
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TheCupboard
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Let the nostalgia flow, people. Doom 2 really granted the multiplayer satisfattion everyone was waiting for (the SSG) plus the horrifyingly fresh monsters hunting you down every corridor with their unpredictable attacks. Both games were near perfect in their day and age.

Old Post 12-04-13 06:51 #
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EvilNed
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When I think of Doom I think of closed off bases with corridors, mazes and the like. When I think of Doom 2 I think of wide open spaces and exploration.

Old Post 12-04-13 08:55 #
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doomguy93
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EvilNed said:
When I think of Doom I think of closed off bases with corridors, mazes and the like. When I think of Doom 2 I think of wide open spaces and exploration.


Well said sir

Other threads I started:

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mo...-for-doom-wads/

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mo...om-1-or-doom-2/

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-ge...tching-and-why/

Old Post 12-04-13 08:58 #
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StupidBunny
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Aesthetically I generally like Doom's levels for being more thematically consistent. Doom II has some fantastic-looking levels, as well as some of the fugliest I've ever played in any WAD ever (looking at you, MAP21.) Any semblance of thematic consistency in Doom II especially falls apart in the Hell levels, which include too many maps that just feel like weird starbases. The one thing in this regard I do like about Doom II is its use of large spaces which Doom couldn't do. I know that the Chasm gets a lot of hate but I always thought it pulled off a nicely ominous, decaying atmosphere. I don't even mind all that SFALL everywhere that much. MAP29 does this even better, and I don't think any other map in the two episodes left quite as much of an impression on me when I first played them. I also like Doom's textures better overall, for both the wider variety of techbase textures and all those cool half-tech, half-hell textures that were left out in Doom II for some reason. Doom II's new textures are a mixed bunch, and though the city/stone textures are useful in mapping they're too overwhelmingly brown.

As far as gameplay goes, it's a tougher call. The new monsters do add a lot to Doom II, and even in nasty-looking levels like MAP16 you get some nice intense action of the sort Doom doesn't have as much of. I like the more tight and often trap-heavy action in Doom, but I'd say overall Doom II simply benefits from having more variety of possible and realized battle scenarios.

As for a final verdict? Maybe it's nostalgia, maybe it's shallowness, maybe it's just because I get sick of brown after a while, but I'll have to go with Doom anyway. Doom II had some great ideas, but didn't see them out as consistently as Doom did. Ultimately, Doom II's greatest contribution to Doomdom is the possibilities it expanded for mapping with its expanded bestiary and added SSG and megasphere.

Old Post 12-04-13 09:05 #
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doomguy93
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StupidBunny said:
Aesthetically I generally like Doom's levels for being more thematically consistent. Doom II has some fantastic-looking levels, as well as some of the fugliest I've ever played in any WAD ever (looking at you, MAP21.) Any semblance of thematic consistency in Doom II especially falls apart in the Hell levels, which include too many maps that just feel like weird starbases. The one thing in this regard I do like about Doom II is its use of large spaces which Doom couldn't do. I know that the Chasm gets a lot of hate but I always thought it pulled off a nicely ominous, decaying atmosphere. I don't even mind all that SFALL everywhere that much. MAP29 does this even better, and I don't think any other map in the two episodes left quite as much of an impression on me when I first played them. I also like Doom's textures better overall, for both the wider variety of techbase textures and all those cool half-tech, half-hell textures that were left out in Doom II for some reason. Doom II's new textures are a mixed bunch, and though the city/stone textures are useful in mapping they're too overwhelmingly brown.

As far as gameplay goes, it's a tougher call. The new monsters do add a lot to Doom II, and even in nasty-looking levels like MAP16 you get some nice intense action of the sort Doom doesn't have as much of. I like the more tight and often trap-heavy action in Doom, but I'd say overall Doom II simply benefits from having more variety of possible and realized battle scenarios.

As for a final verdict? Maybe it's nostalgia, maybe it's shallowness, maybe it's just because I get sick of brown after a while, but I'll have to go with Doom anyway. Doom II had some great ideas, but didn't see them out as consistently as Doom did. Ultimately, Doom II's greatest contribution to Doomdom is the possibilities it expanded for mapping with its expanded bestiary and added SSG and megasphere.



I gotta say, I chuckled a little at your statement "some of the fugliest I've ever played in any WAD ever (looking at you, MAP21.)" lol

I agree with what you are saying, but unfortunately I'm just not really a fan of the Hell theme. I'm more into techbases, cities, and outdoor environments. I think Doom 2 went a little overboard with the Hell themed levels.

The new super shot gun as well as the new monsters made the gameplay so relatively good though.

Old Post 12-04-13 09:11 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Doom 2 has so many great textures that aren't in Doom that totally make up for the handful of tech textures that its missing.

Old Post 12-04-13 12:49 #
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Boingo
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I strongly prefer the DooM levels to DooM 2, along with DooM's episode structure. I rarely play DooM 2.

In addition, I find episode 4's maps to be too similar to DooM 2's maps in feel and play, since they were made after the DooM 2 maps, as well, and rarely play them either.

I find DooM's maps have a better look and feel, and a better continuity, especially in episode 1. In the original DooM levels you feel like you are on a journey, and you are actually going somewhere. In DooM 2 (and episode 4) it just feels like a bunch of levels thrown together.

Old Post 12-04-13 13:06 #
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Clonehunter
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If I remember, when comparing the mount of space in a map, I seem to remember E2 having a lot of big open areas, or at least tall ceilings. They weren't as spacious as some Doom II levels, but were still fairly large. Granted, I don't like a lot of E2 and hardly remember any of it minus the first two levels and the secret level.

Old Post 12-04-13 14:48 #
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doomguy93
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Patrol1985 said:
By the way - why is MAP21 so despised? Is it beacause of its small size for a map so far into the game?


In my opinion, the reasons why I dislike MAP 21: 1) I don't like the layout. The design is hands down a total eyesore. I have a feeling Sandy Peterson designed this piece of rubbish because this doesn't look like something John Romero would have done. 2) There are so many enemies just lumped together. It just ruins the strategic aspect of the gameplay and it is just stupid. That's my problem with Doom 2... I feel like the creators had some kind of crazy fetish for putting 200+ demons in most of their levels. It's just ludicrous. Idk what's worse, MAP 09 or MAP 21? The only level I liked that had a ridiculous amount of enemies was MAP 16. lol That's it.

Old Post 12-04-13 17:49 #
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doomguy93
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Marnetmar said:
http://www.doomworld.com/vbmisc/qimg.gif


lol I love this picture, it's fucking gold man XD

Old Post 12-04-13 17:52 #
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Joe667
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Ragnor said:
Doom has the worst map ever made by ID though, Hell Keep...


What's so bad about Hell Keep?... I mean... apart from the Cacodemon vs. pistol showdown...

Old Post 12-04-13 18:52 #
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doomguy93
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Joe667 said:


What's so bad about Hell Keep?... I mean... apart from the Cacodemon vs. pistol showdown...



The layout and design of the level was just utter crap. That's my personal opinion on why the map was bad.

Old Post 12-04-13 18:56 #
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Eris Falling
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Joe667 said:


What's so bad about Hell Keep?... I mean... apart from the Cacodemon vs. pistol showdown...



Which isn't forced. I admit I rarely do it myself, but there's no reason the player can't wait for the cacos to clear the doorway then run for the shotgun and come back round and use that.

Old Post 12-04-13 18:59 #
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Da Werecat
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It was an adequate and atmospheric introduction to the final episode of the game.

Well, maybe excluding a long 64 mp-wide corridor, that was a little uninspired.

Old Post 12-04-13 19:03 #
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Clonehunter
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I thought the length of Hell Keep was fairly lame, as well as most of the visuals and geometry. E1M1 was a fine starting length, E2M1 was fairly medium and got us into the vibe of E2. Then E3M1 was there and then it was gone. There is just wholly nothing interesting about it other than that it's just there. It definitely sets the texture setting for the following maps and maybe some of the mood (Bright red and lots and lots of HUGE GUTS), but otherwise it was a fairly lame entry into E3 imo.

Old Post 12-04-13 19:15 #
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EvilNed
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I think both E2M1 and E3M1 are pretty crap. Uninspired.

Old Post 12-04-13 19:48 #
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glenzinho
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doomguy93 said:


The layout and design of the level was just utter crap. That's my personal opinion on why the map was bad.

You are entitled to your opinion, but could you turn it down a bit? It's hurting my ears.

Hell Keep is a classic. It's a pretty short opener these days, but back when it was released, there was nothing like it that had come before. The music, finding yourself facing that eyeball switch with spine and mangled flesh surrounding you. Then when you ascend you find yourself under that blood red sky which seemingly went on forever. This was hell, and it was glorious.

Old Post 12-04-13 19:48 #
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Eris Falling
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I've never understood the use of the term "uninspired" when referring to Doom 1 maps, given they were the very first of their kind.

Old Post 12-04-13 19:50 #
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Da Werecat
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Clonehunter said:
There is just wholly nothing interesting about it other than that it's just there.

It has a courtyard and a gate - very appropriate. It's also a little exhausting for an inexperienced player because of the ammo shortage, even despite its length. It sorta gives you an "it's gonna be tough" impression about the episode without scaring you away.

Old Post 12-04-13 19:52 #
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glenzinho
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Eris Falling said:
I've never understood the use of the term "uninspired" when referring to Doom 1 maps, given they were the very first of their kind.
Well done young man.

Old Post 12-04-13 20:03 #
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