Doom Comic
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Does Doom 1 have better level design than it's sequel Doom 2?
Pages (3): « 1 2 [3]  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 12:17. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Eris Falling
Forum Staple


Posts: 3098
Registered: 07-12



glenzinho said:
Well done young man.


That's twice. Do I get the third for post-hunting? :D


To expand on my post, it just seems odd to me. I never played E3M1 until last year, but I can imagine the scenario of playing it 20 years ago. Pressing that switch, rising up slowly - which itself would instil an "oh shit" into the mind of the player, since they would have no idea what was happening - and then "you find yourself under that blood red sky which seemingly went on forever. This was hell, and it was glorious," and it was the first one ever, to be followed by many.
Even if you dislike the map, and wish it would die in hell not exist, it seems rather idiosyncratic (thesaurus! :D) to call it uninspired

Old Post 12-04-13 20:18 #
Eris Falling is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
the_miano
Forum Regular


Posts: 896
Registered: 04-13



Eris Falling said:
idiosyncratic


Quite a fancy word

Last edited by the_miano on 04-01-14 at 02:37

Old Post 12-04-13 20:29 #
the_miano is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
glenzinho
Forum Regular


Posts: 750
Registered: 09-11


Just want to add the falling bridge over the blood, and the leap of faith to run through that wall. I always got the impression that I surprised the imps in that room from their game of cards. In fact I can still remember the first time I played It, and I was running and I knew there had to be something to it, but I chickened at the last second and jumped into the pool of blood. Then I could see fireballs coming at me from beyond the wall and the penny dropped!

Eris, you keep speaking the truth and I'll keep giving you props.

Old Post 12-04-13 20:29 #
glenzinho is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
PurpleMenace
Warming Up


Posts: 10
Registered: 12-12



Boingo said:
In addition, I find episode 4's maps to be too similar to DooM 2's maps in feel and play, since they were made after the DooM 2 maps, as well, and rarely play them either.
Interesting - I don't believe I've heard anyone make that criticism of E4 before. I've always considered Thy Flesh Consumed my favorite episode of Doom. The gameplay has an edge to it lacking in the rest of Doom 1/2 that makes it the most challenging yet rewarding to fight through, and I've always had a soft spot for the cold, isolating atmosphere of the marble/wood theme. I'd argue it's just as cohesive as E1, and certainly moreso than the schizophrenic Doom 2.

I don't think the episode's problem is being slapped together with random maps - it all feels part of the same universe - but its sloppy arrangement. The difficulty progression is awful. Hell Beneath, the first mission, is the hardest level in the episode for all the wrong reasons (no health or ammo coupled with a bunch of barons) while the final two maps throw ammo and weapons at the player and are probably the easiest of the bunch. Sever the Wicked is just plain bad. I think Shawn Green got bored after making the outstanding outdoor section and cobbled together a bunch of empty rooms and hallways for the wooden fortress, then tossed darts at the map to determine item and monster placement. And why the hell is one secret marked nineteen times while two others are inaccessible?

Old Post 12-04-13 20:58 #
PurpleMenace is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Doomhuntress
Senior Member


Posts: 1029
Registered: 08-10


i like Doom 1 because its episodic format makes it a lot more fun to finish a mapset that could devolve into a 36 map slugfest; you actually feel that you're progressing, instead of going "will this NEVER end?". it also has an actual ending screen (i just skip Doom 2's because it's boring, i've seen it before, and in dehacked mods like Batman, it's not worth looking at).

however, the levels are far more boring to play through, due to the limited amount of monsters and lack of SSG. it makes the gameplay far less dynamic, and more of a slog, plus the levels themselves are pretty cramped and boring to look and run around in. therefor, i prefer Doom 2's level design over Doom 1, because of it being more fun to play. it has wide open areas to run around in, a lot harder gameplay that still holds up today, and is just generally more fun than Doom 1 is. the minus is the 32 level format, which can make a megawad pretty boring due to not feeling any sense of progress other than "level count goes up".

Old Post 12-04-13 21:04 #
Doomhuntress is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Da Werecat
Senior Member


Posts: 1478
Registered: 11-09



schizophrenic Doom 2

The most unhealthy experience you're going to have with Doom games is E2. Tom Hall + Sandy Petersen, what could've gone wrong? :)

Old Post 12-04-13 21:15 #
Da Werecat is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
joe-ilya
Nescient Member


Posts: 2625
Registered: 10-12


Doom is made so every monster will be hard to kill.
Doom II and Ultimate Doom are made for huge chunks of killing.

__________________
Name at Zandoronum:jo3-ilya . name at Zdaemon:ilya_the_joe_12
YouTube channel My DSDA

Old Post 12-04-13 21:48 #
joe-ilya is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
EvilNed
Member


Posts: 356
Registered: 03-10



Eris Falling said:


That's twice. Do I get the third for post-hunting? :D


To expand on my post, it just seems odd to me. I never played E3M1 until last year, but I can imagine the scenario of playing it 20 years ago. Pressing that switch, rising up slowly - which itself would instil an "oh shit" into the mind of the player, since they would have no idea what was happening - and then "you find yourself under that blood red sky which seemingly went on forever. This was hell, and it was glorious," and it was the first one ever, to be followed by many.
Even if you dislike the map, and wish it would die in hell not exist, it seems rather idiosyncratic (thesaurus! :D) to call it uninspired



Disagreed. It's an ill-designed map compared to the rest of Doom. It looks and plays like crap. As with E2M1 in my opinion.

Old Post 12-04-13 21:58 #
EvilNed is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Eris Falling
Forum Staple


Posts: 3098
Registered: 07-12



EvilNed said:


Disagreed. It's an ill-designed map compared to the rest of Doom. It looks and plays like crap. As with E2M1 in my opinion.



I've found an alternative definition for "uninspired," which is basically "dull." Perhaps this is what you meant. I hope it is. When I think "uninspired," I think of it as "deficient in originality or creativity; lacking powers of invention," and I think, if that definition of uninspired is applied to an original Doom level, that's just plain wrong.

Having familiarised myself a bit more with the PC levels, I'm still not a fan of E3. M6 remains my favourite, and M1, M2 and M8 are okay, but I really hate M3, 4 and especially 7. Oh god, E3M7. I have never liked it, but I cannot deny that it's actually a well designed level, and inevitably getting lost on the PSX version with the ambient music, and the firesky burning overhead...I've never really looked at Limbo that way. I guess I kinda like and dislike it at the same time.
What was I typing again?

Old Post 12-04-13 23:02 #
Eris Falling is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Dragonsbrethren
Forum Staple


Posts: 2504
Registered: 03-09


I love E3M3 just for the fact that it looks like it was literally in the middle of being retextured when the game shipped. It's not a bad map, either, one of Hall's better ones, has a decent amount of height variation and interconnectivity. Probably the biggest letdown is that the blue key is completely out of the way unless you take the center path. If you could get to the center from the area with the blue door it wouldn't really matter, but as it is you've got to backtrack if you don't go that way first. Gives you an excuse to explore the other path, though.

Old Post 12-05-13 00:10 #
Dragonsbrethren is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
EvilNed
Member


Posts: 356
Registered: 03-10



Eris Falling said:


I've found an alternative definition for "uninspired," which is basically "dull." Perhaps this is what you meant. I hope it is. When I think "uninspired," I think of it as "deficient in originality or creativity; lacking powers of invention," and I think, if that definition of uninspired is applied to an original Doom level, that's just plain wrong.



Dull is another word I'd use, Yes. But you can tell that some maps were simply not given the same love as others. Hence: Uninspired.

Old Post 12-05-13 10:23 #
EvilNed is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Avoozl
Forum Staple


Posts: 2733
Registered: 06-09


I don't think it's so much that they didn't get as much love as others but more that they didn't think too much about how well they were making the particular maps compared to the other maps.

Old Post 12-05-13 11:01 #
Avoozl is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Hypnotoad
Green Marine


Posts: 39
Registered: 08-10


With the exception of episode 1, Doom 2 overwhelmingly has better level design than Doom 1. I really cannot understand how people can think otherwise, other than them being stuck in nostalgia.

Old Post 12-05-13 11:24 #
Hypnotoad is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Hypnotoad
Green Marine


Posts: 39
Registered: 08-10



Touchdown said:
its levels look like actual places you'd expect from moon bases / Hell.



http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/5845-wtf-disgusting.jpg

Old Post 12-05-13 11:32 #
Hypnotoad is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Clonehunter
Forum Staple


Posts: 3946
Registered: 03-10



Da Werecat said:

It has a courtyard and a gate - very appropriate. It's also a little exhausting for an inexperienced player because of the ammo shortage, even despite its length. It sorta gives you an "it's gonna be tough" impression about the episode without scaring you away.



Yah, alright, I can understand that. I guess it's just that now days, it doesn't seem like much. It was visually interesting though.

Old Post 12-05-13 15:34 #
Clonehunter is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Luke Dacote
Mini-Member


Posts: 74
Registered: 08-13



Jroc said:
With the exception of episode 1, Doom 2 overwhelmingly has better level design than Doom 1. I really cannot understand how people can think otherwise, other than them being stuck in nostalgia.

I know many love Doom 2 for being more action packed but I just prefer the more even pace of the original. I find the layout and length of the maps better in Doom 1 plus I find it more satisfying to build up an arsenal since each episode feels distinctive. With Doom 2, you can basically just rely on the SSG, rocket launcher and BFG for the whole game. And the main reason why the SSG and the BFG are so effective in Doom 2 is due to the large wave of enemies that the game keeps throwing at you. Doom 1 just felt more strategic and logical. You get a sense the developers had a clear idea in their heads when designing the levels rather than just throwing in a ton of enemies in a convoluted map. At least that's how I feel.

Old Post 12-05-13 23:31 #
Luke Dacote is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
the_miano
Forum Regular


Posts: 896
Registered: 04-13



Luke Dacote said:

I know many love Doom 2 for being more action packed but I just prefer the more even pace of the original. I find the layout and length of the maps better in Doom 1 plus I find it more satisfying to build up an arsenal since each episode feels distinctive. With Doom 2, you can basically just rely on the SSG, rocket launcher and BFG for the whole game. And the main reason why the SSG and the BFG are so effective in Doom 2 is due to the large wave of enemies that the game keeps throwing at you. Doom 1 just felt more strategic and logical. You get a sense the developers had a clear idea in their heads when designing the levels rather than just throwing in a ton of enemies in a convoluted map. At least that's how I feel.



Doom 2 needed more of a balance between outdoor "open space" levels and military base/UAC labs levels, as seen in Phobos "Knee Deep in the Dead". The Doom 1 was very suspenseful because of the labs settings. I often felt that Doom 2 was "over-the-top" with enemy placement, although I liked the new enemies.

Last edited by the_miano on 12-06-13 at 00:32

Old Post 12-06-13 00:18 #
the_miano is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Avoozl
Forum Staple


Posts: 2733
Registered: 06-09



doomguy93 said:
UAC labs levels, as seen in Phobos "Knee Deep in the Dead".
But the lab levels were more suited to Doom 1 since it was on Mars, you wouldn't need them as much on earth.

Old Post 12-06-13 00:30 #
Avoozl is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
the_miano
Forum Regular


Posts: 896
Registered: 04-13



Avoozl said:
But the lab levels were more suited to Doom 1 since it was on Mars, you wouldn't need them as much on earth.


True, Doom 1 was on Mar's Moon base "Phobos." But There could have been some levels that had lab based settings.

Old Post 12-06-13 00:34 #
the_miano is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


Posts: 2252
Registered: 01-08


About Hell Keep, its the worst because its the dullest map of all the official maps (id made or licensed)

The only thing thats good is the opening that people already described. Everything else after that is crap. You have the terrible flat wall. The stupid walk-through-wall (I despise these no matter WHERE in the game it is, breaks all immersion. At least PSX Doom made these walls transparant), and the fact that the gameplay is pretty much just "run down a super narrow corridor killing melee enemies till the end"

Compare to E1M1 and E2M1 which were much longer and had much more exploration and atmosphere. It's so bad it was outright replaced in console ports with a much better map, even though it would have easily fit in with the low-end levels.

Old Post 12-06-13 01:58 #
Ragnor is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Avoozl
Forum Staple


Posts: 2733
Registered: 06-09


I don't really find an issue with walk through walls, besides it's supposed to be a surreal sort of thing I guess which fits well with hell levels.

Old Post 12-06-13 02:09 #
Avoozl is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


Posts: 2252
Registered: 01-08


Its gameplay for gameplay's sake. Romero used one in E4M6 to hide a secret in a rock wall. At least the PSX version makes them look as you describe, they tend to be ghostly walls fading out of existence. The only time I've liked them was in TNT Map 31, where they were used to primitively simulate people sniping out a window. Even then you generally couldnt walk in there.

Old Post 12-06-13 02:22 #
Ragnor is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
the_miano
Forum Regular


Posts: 896
Registered: 04-13


To the DMR Team & Participants: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mo...gement-by-dg93/

I am taking over the project management as of 12/6/2013

Please report to my newest thread. Thank you.

-DG93

Old Post 12-07-13 02:44 #
the_miano is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 12:17. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (3): « 1 2 [3]  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Does Doom 1 have better level design than it's sequel Doom 2?

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.