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jazzmaster9
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We all talk about how Sandy Peterson or John Romero's mapping style has influenced peoples mapping styles.

But how about the mappers of PSX Doom and Doom 64, how would you describe their style? can we take some of their styles and integrate it to our mapping philosophies?
Do they even have a "Style" to begin with, or are they just generic mapper X? (I don't believe they are)

what do you guys think?

Old Post 12-22-13 08:24 #
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Da Werecat
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Doom 64 - orthogonal, flat, redeemed by complex lighting and detail level.

Old Post 12-22-13 11:57 #
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Avoozl
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I wouldn't say Doom 64 is flat, PSX Doom on the otherhand due to height limitations is practically the flat one.

Old Post 12-22-13 12:09 #
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Gez
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How much of the style is caused by different limitations and feature set, though? You'd have to get the Midway/Williams guys to make maps for PC Doom, and Romero/Peterson/Hall/McGee/etc. to make maps for Doom 64, so we'd get some valid point of comparison. :p

Old Post 12-22-13 12:21 #
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Da Werecat
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Maybe not as flat as I made it sound, but I happened to convert some techbases for D64 in D2, and they've relied on "room-corridor-room" scheme a lot, with little to no height variation.

Old Post 12-22-13 12:28 #
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Avoozl
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I recall at least some of the maps in Doom 64 had taller heights than the limit used in most of the PSX Doom maps, at least judging by the converted ones in the PSX Doom TC if I recall correctly.

Old Post 12-22-13 12:36 #
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scalliano
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jazzmaster9 said:
can we take some of their styles and integrate it to our mapping philosophies?


I, for one, already do. My maps tend to lean towards PSX Doom from a visual standpoint, but my layouts tend to lean more towards Doom 64. That said, I'm a GZDoom mapper, although I am interested in mapping for EX at some point.

All in all, though, it's a difficult comparison to make, as Gez said. PSX Doom's levels are recreations of the PC levels which have been modified to accommodate the limitations of the hardware. Doom 64's maps, on the other hand, are entirely original and are designed within an almost entirely different and less restrictive environment. PSX Doom shows Midway/Williams' vision, Doom 64 shows their style.

The thing is, though, most of what both iterations brought to the table can only really be achieved in advanced ports. Eternity and (G)ZDoom only recently got subtractive blending for the Nightmare Spectre (still waiting on the ACC update - wink) and D64 already has an entire engine all to itself in the form of EX.

Personally, I'd love to see more mappers adapting the approach from both games - we've had all sorts of mapping "conventions" over the years - 1024 maps, speed maps, puzzle maps, slaughter maps, etc. I feel that the Midway method of mapping is a relatively untapped source of inspiration. Embrace the colour, people!

Old Post 12-22-13 15:15 #
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Da Werecat
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scalliano said:
Embrace the colour, people!

Well, I already did. Although it usually limits the range of supported engines.

Old Post 12-22-13 15:25 #
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GoatLord
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Doom 64 may not have a hell of a lot of height variation, but its layouts are very memorable. There's a lot more of a sense of exploring decrepit altars, temples, demon holds, ancient ruins and other hellish structures than in the other Dooms. Yes, this has a lot to do with the textures and lighting, but it really is a very entertaining game from a mapping stance. It's not just the clever use of room-over-room architecture. There are some downright devious traps and puzzles, and a strong sense of theme and purpose to many of the maps. It's a very immersive game.

PSX Doom is a bit ugly, due to the haphazard colored lighting; it's handled much more nicely in PSX Final Doom. I really like how different they are from the PC versions. The texture choices, flaming skies and star fields add a lot of dimension. The maps still look good today, and give me that same sense of nostalgia as the oldschool Doom maps. I really like that the game is full of layouts that have a spatial significance. Whenever I replay it, much like with Doom 64, I think, "Oh, I really like this room," or "Oh man, there's that creepy place with the courtyard," or "I can't wait to get out of the map, it's fucking terrifying." I like that the game can affect me that way.

Old Post 12-22-13 16:02 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Da Werecat said:
Doom 64 - orthogonal, flat, redeemed by complex lighting and detail level.

Maybe not as flat as I made it sound, but I happened to convert some techbases for D64 in D2, and they've relied on "room-corridor-room" scheme a lot, with little to no height variation.


Yeah, this is definitely the most disappointing aspect of Doom 64. They still manage to make some memorable areas, but it's mostly through detail and not layout, with the exception of some of the castle/hell maps.

Do we have any PC maps from the PSX/Doom 64 designers? We know they made some, does anyone know if they're in the archive?

Old Post 12-22-13 20:35 #
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jazzmaster9
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GoatLord said:
There's a lot more of a sense of exploring decrepit altars, temples, demon holds, ancient ruins and other hellish structures than in the other Dooms.



What i really liked about Doom64 are the hell levels, convention says: make hell levels either Surreal or Marbled, D64 made it "Evil" looking, more death caverns and ruin like.

Old Post 12-23-13 00:03 #
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Antroid
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I really liked the base levels of 64 too, they had a certain atmospheric quality to them that I can't really put into words (perhaps a bit dream-like? Surrealistic? Dunno), but it was really memorable. I seem to remember a lot of areas from the later base levels, many of them with pretty noticeable height variations too. Although that one spiral tower hell level probably takes the cake in that department.

I should replay Doom64 sometime, I seem to have forgotten a lot of the hell levels...

Old Post 12-23-13 00:44 #
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the_miano
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Doom 64 map layouts were VERY different than the maps from the PC versions of Doom. For one thing, the design is very flat. Doom had more height variation than in the Doom 64 version. Also, Doom 64 was very dark and ambient. In my opinion, the textures were really ugly compared to the standard Doom textures for the PC/ Playstation/ SNES/ Gameboy Advance/ SEGA32x/ etc...

The Playstation Doom had similar design elements from Doom 64. It was somewhat dark and some of the lights actually had color. But still, I believe that the PC versions of Doom are superior.

Old Post 12-23-13 20:04 #
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Gez
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The textures are kinda ugly in Doom 64 because they're not complete. They're meant to be completed by gradient lighting effects. It's also why they're practically all a desaturated grey color, allowing them to be colored to any possible tint easily.

Old Post 12-23-13 20:34 #
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the_miano
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Gez said:
The textures are kinda ugly in Doom 64 because they're not complete. They're meant to be completed by gradient lighting effects. It's also why they're practically all a desaturated grey color, allowing them to be colored to any possible tint easily.


Exactly.

Old Post 12-23-13 21:17 #
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Job
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I actually enjoyed mapping for Doom 64. Once you get a hang of the lighting engine and the greater flexibility offered overall, it's really fun. Never mind the fact that the result usually looks pretty nice. For me, Doom 64 textures are more effective at eliciting an emotional response because they are somewhat surreal while being realistic. Although PSX maps create their own brooding style, it's a little more...light-hearted because the share the same textures as PC Doom which, in my opinion, was more arcade-ish.

That said, I'm waiting until a good, reliable and stable editor is released. Also, I'd give my left nut for someone to port over the PC/PSX mancubus to D64 EX. I just can't stand the Doom 64 manc (hated it on the cover of Nintendo Power or whichever game rag it was plastered on).

Old Post 12-23-13 21:51 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Gez said:
The textures are kinda ugly in Doom 64 because they're not complete. They're meant to be completed by gradient lighting effects. It's also why they're practically all a desaturated grey color, allowing them to be colored to any possible tint easily.

Yeah, but even with that color gradient applied, they still look worse than the PC textures. When I started trying to map for Doom 64 I really liked using the textures. That lasted about all of two days. Now I can't stand them, most of them are all too repetitive and same-y looking.

Old Post 12-23-13 22:20 #
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the_miano
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I never really found Doom 64 to be all that fun. I think it had to do with the ambient music and dark environment. It didn't really feel like a Doom game to me.

Old Post 12-23-13 22:22 #
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Piper Maru
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doomguy93 said:
I never really found Doom 64 to be all that fun. I think it had to do with the ambient music and dark environment. It didn't really feel like a Doom game to me.


I prefer Doom 64 over the original PC Doom. The dark environment and ambient music add to it's charm. I'd take it over the late night munchies taco bell music found in Doom & Doom II. Don't get me wrong, I still love PC Doom, it got me hooked on video games in the first place.

Old Post 12-24-13 00:11 #
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the_miano
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Piper Maru said:


I prefer Doom 64 over the original PC Doom. The dark environment and ambient music add to it's charm. I'd take it over the late night munchies taco bell music found in Doom & Doom II. Don't get me wrong, I still love PC Doom, it got me hooked on video games in the first place.



I do like the sounds in Doom 64. They are pretty badass in my opinion. I think I would also find the game to be more enjoyable if the the N64 controller didn't have such an abstract design to it. I do own a copy of Doom 64, but haven't't made it past the third level.

Old Post 12-24-13 00:32 #
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Piper Maru
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doomguy93 said:


I do like the sounds in Doom 64. They are pretty badass in my opinion. I think I would also find the game to be more enjoyable if the the N64 controller didn't have such an abstract design to it. I do own a copy of Doom 64, but haven't't made it past the third level.



The controls for the consoles can be a bit clunky, but once you get the hang of them it's all gravy. However, nothing beats the WASD these days lol.

Old Post 12-24-13 01:06 #
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the_miano
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Piper Maru said:


The controls for the consoles can be a bit clunky, but once you get the hang of them it's all gravy. However, nothing beats the WASD these days lol.



Lol I prefer to use the arrow keys over the WASD keys.

Old Post 12-24-13 01:28 #
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Piper Maru
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doomguy93 said:


Lol I prefer to use the arrow keys over the WASD keys.



I used to play with the arrow keys, but things have changed lol.

Old Post 12-24-13 01:33 #
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the_miano
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Piper Maru said:


I used to play with the arrow keys, but things have changed lol.



I find it easier since I am right handed to use the arrow keys for movement, but I guess it all depends on the person's preference because I'm sure that there are some right handed gamers that use the WASD keys with their left hand.

Old Post 12-24-13 01:36 #
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Ragnor
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I play D64EX with a 360 controller. You can even play it with PSX Doom's controls if you choose.

Anyway, D64 never had me thinking OMGGGGG THIS MAP IS FLAAAAT in any map. Likely because each map was so highly atmospheric.

Old Post 12-24-13 03:23 #
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Avoozl
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I wish Kaiser was able to implement a rumble feature for 360 controllers in Doom 64 EX but I have a feeling it's just not possible.

Old Post 12-24-13 04:06 #
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Kaiser
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Avoozl said:
I wish Kaiser was able to implement a rumble feature for 360 controllers in Doom 64 EX but I have a feeling it's just not possible.


Its actually implemented already. I just disabled it because I thought people wouldn't care too much about it... heh

Old Post 12-25-13 02:18 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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I like rumble, but I can live without it, so I never requested it. Guess I should have.

Old Post 12-25-13 02:21 #
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Technician
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Kaiser said:
Its actually implemented already. I just disabled it because I thought people wouldn't care too much about it... heh
What is your major malfunction?

Also, enable green blood.

Old Post 12-25-13 02:23 #
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Ragnor
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I would like remappable controls, or at least, a third controller scheme that mirrors the 360 and PS3 controls.

Old Post 12-25-13 03:35 #
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