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Platinum Shell
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I never liked these as it makes finding the secrets a load fest. I think monster condo had one of the worst cases of this, with one of the secrets being open for only a short time at the start of the level.

Old Post 12-31-13 02:20 #
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40oz
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I've been wanting to incorporate a one time door open wait close switch or walkover line somewhere in a map but I can't see the practicality of it over a repeatable switch instead.

Maybe it could work if there were more than one switch, i.e. the first switch is within visual range, only works once, the second switch is a bit further away, so you get a second chance but a greater challenge. I dunno.

Old Post 12-31-13 03:41 #
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Zed
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It's cool if it's a puzzle map. After all, that's what puzzle maps are all about, right?

Old Post 12-31-13 03:48 #
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traversd
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40oz said:
I've been wanting to incorporate a one time door open wait close switch or walkover line somewhere in a map but I can't see the practicality of it over a repeatable switch instead.

Maybe it could work if there were more than one switch, i.e. the first switch is within visual range, only works once, the second switch is a bit further away, so you get a second chance but a greater challenge. I dunno.



Yeh, I think a setup where the secret is only accessible briefly at the start of the map that rewards the more daring attempts and then reopens towards the end of the map to reward the back tracking completion-ists would avoid the annoyance with the 1time, time limited secret.

Old Post 12-31-13 06:03 #
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Xaser
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Blech, I hate once-only secrets/whatnot with a fiery something-or-other. However,

traversd said:
Yeh, I think a setup where the secret is only accessible briefly at the start of the map that rewards the more daring attempts and then reopens towards the end of the map to reward the back tracking completion-ists would avoid the annoyance with the 1time, time limited secret.

I do really like this idea for some reason. Extend it perhaps to make radically different paths through the map depending on whether you play it fast or slow.

Old Post 12-31-13 06:22 #
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Memfis
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I like the strategical element they add to uv-max speedruns. Often you have to skip some areas and awaken a bunch of enemies to get there in time and then you get to clean up the mess you have created.

I think many players nowadays have a wrong attitude about secrets. They complain if a secret is "too hard" or "unfair". Boys, you aren't supposed to find secrets. That's why they are called secrets.

Old Post 12-31-13 12:31 #
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Platinum Shell
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Memfis said:
I like the strategical element they add to uv-max speedruns. Often you have to skip some areas and awaken a bunch of enemies to get there in time and then you get to clean up the mess you have created.

I think many players nowadays have a wrong attitude about secrets. They complain if a secret is "too hard" or "unfair". Boys, you aren't supposed to find secrets. That's why they are called secrets.



Nowadays

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Memfis man...

Old Post 12-31-13 12:40 #
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Sokoro
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Well one thing is this really weird secret.. in monster condo.. the timed one.. I never knew how to reach it without cheating until today.

and another thing is to make unaccesible secret in one-way teleport sector which can not be achieved without idcliping, ruining 100% secrets score.

Old Post 12-31-13 13:08 #
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Nomad
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40oz said:
I've been wanting to incorporate a one time door open wait close switch or walkover line somewhere in a map but I can't see the practicality of it over a repeatable switch instead.

Maybe it could work if there were more than one switch, i.e. the first switch is within visual range, only works once, the second switch is a bit further away, so you get a second chance but a greater challenge. I dunno.



Oh man, you just gave me a great idea for a map I've been trying to finish forever. Use a walkover line to trip a "security alarm," that will slowly close certain doors (or just close them after a delay), but later you can open them with a key. So if the player is quick they can slip into the section early and feel clever, but slower or inattentive players can still get in later with the key.

Old Post 12-31-13 14:04 #
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Ragnor
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Ive been bitching about any and all one time only secrets in TNT2, and most have alternate ways to get them now. I do appreciate the creativity of some of these, like one had you jump to an outer wall during a floor lowering, then you had to inch along the wall to get an automap, but pretty much everyone wont do that, will see the map and assume theres a secret door, a teleporter, etc and hunt for ages. Theres now a second way to get there :)

I will never approve of shit like the Monster Condo secret or TNT Map 11's Megasphere that requires an archvile jump

Old Post 01-01-14 00:06 #
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purist
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Totally agree with Memfis. I don't see why accessing secrets has to be in any way fair. I like the idea of a secret not being a guarantee even when you know the map. Adds a little randomness to the play.

Old Post 01-01-14 01:23 #
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Vermil
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There is nothing wrong with timed or one chance secret's, but they are so rarely used in Doom maps (Iwad and Pwad), that many peoples gameplay styles don't take them into account.

But certainly; the 30 second door and 5min doors could be used in interesting ways yes; for a very simple use, one could use the 5min door to teleport additional bad guys into an area of a map if the player takes too long. Limited control of when that 5min countdown starts could perhaps be achieved by using triggers that change a sectors type to an adjacent one.

Old Post 01-01-14 09:00 #
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Avoozl
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One other thing rarely used in Doom were the shoot switches and activate-able things like in Monster Condo.

Old Post 01-01-14 09:16 #
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Phml
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One-time go secrets are boring, for the same reasons as inescapable pits. It challenges my finger dexterity, not my brain.

Including a failsafe doesn't hurt anyone. The good player is going to run for the secret ASAP anyway and won't fall into the pit. The bad player is still punished by only getting to the secret later, or taking some damage while climbing out of the pit.

The only thing instant fail states achieve is pushing players into exploitative strategies. Savespam, metagame... or, for the stubborn ones, it just makes them lose a lot of time doing the same things over and over.

Couldn't give a damn whether this is the "wrong attitude", I'll pick having fun over being a tru d00mer. Why do I mention it if I don't care, you might ask; well, the current trend of browbeating anyone who dares have an opinion in topics specifically designed to discuss opinions does get on my nerves.

Old Post 01-01-14 09:55 #
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Memfis
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I didn't want to use "wrong" but I forgot what's the word that means that you're demanding something people don't owe you or something like that. Like if the mappers should help you find their secrets.

Old Post 01-01-14 11:44 #
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ducon
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I hate these both, especially when nothing warns the player.

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Old Post 01-01-14 13:24 #
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Doominator2
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I also believe there was a one time go switches for the crushers in E3M4 that had a ton of ammo and medkits.

Old Post 01-04-14 20:02 #
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Phml
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Memfis said:
I didn't want to use "wrong" but I forgot what's the word that means that you're demanding something people don't owe you or something like that. Like if the mappers should help you find their secrets.


"Entitled". Fair enough, I can see your point now.

Old Post 01-04-14 20:26 #
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wesleyjohnson
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The idea of "fair" becomes fair-play when the level stats show if you completed the level or not. As long as the lack of 100% on secrets is pointing out that you did not finish the level, then it is entirely valid to question how "fair" the level map was.

It is possible to put in extra difficult areas, just don't mark them as a secret. Then if the player does not find them, it is not counted against them.

Some maps are less fair, in any category. Some are less fair in only certain ways. Variety is desirable.

The one time accessible secret, and some of the timed doors, do tick me off though, because they are tuned to a particular style of player, which so often is not my style of play. This makes the map unplayable by me.

One of the things is detest is pushing a button here, and then running like an idiot to get to some remote door before it closes. The idiot part comes from trying 10 to 20 times to beat some door. I won't play the idiot for these kind of things anymore.
I added a slow door feature to DoomLegacy just to make these playable without actually having to NoClip through the cursed door. I keep it set at 1.2x normal door open time.

Old Post 01-04-14 22:43 #
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Cacatou
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You could use those as monster releasing lines. After 5 minutes you teleport a cyberdemon in. Depending on how long ago the player pressed a button, the cyberdemon would be damaged via crusher. This gives players an incentive to rush.

Old Post 01-04-14 22:51 #
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Kotzugi
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I agree that people shouldn't feel entitled to find all secrets easily but I do feel that a secret should be a reward for a keen eye or the result of solving a puzzle for the regular player, and not just the result of dumb luck. I mean, secrets contain goodies that the regular or casual player mostly needs a lot more than the pro speed runner. It should be challenge, but requiring spam saving+loading for minutes at a time would be taking it too far.

Of course, there is a place for maps that are designed for speed runners / pros, with secrets requiring eg. archvile jumps. But I think they should definitely be in the minority.

Old Post 01-04-14 22:57 #
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Platinum Shell
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Keen eye, that's what I was looking for. Love those kind of secrets. I only catch the walk-over-linedef ones when I play with the music off or really low. And the ones that open a door far, far away without being able to hear it, just seem kind of pointless to me. Yeah, it's a secret, but it's a Doom secret; hidden but not too ridiculous. I mean, you want observant players to find it, right? Give at least a subtle clue, rather than nothing at all. Otherwise there isn't whole much point in finding it, because the reward will either feel underwhelming or make you too overpowered for where you are in the game.

Old Post 01-05-14 04:00 #
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Antroid
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I usually don't like them too much, since I don't really replay maps apart from the iwads, and it's a bit irritating to miss out on stuff, but as Memfis said I don't really feel entitled to find everything easily, and I do like them when there's a fair chance to notice it and rush to get it, like if it's a one-time thing that you can clearly see in action and there probably aren't many enemies to block your path to it. In that case it does feel like a proper secret and not some bullshit you need to know beforehand from a walkthrough, the internet, or your own experience.

Old Post 01-05-14 06:12 #
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Avoozl
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I kind of like them because they give a sense of re-playability until you finally find out how to do it.

Old Post 01-05-14 07:44 #
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Gez
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When I design secrets to be really frustratingly hard to find, I do not make them count. First, it lets people get 100% completion without busting open the map editor, and secondly it does make discovery of the secret all the sweeter because there was nothing -- not even an incomplete tally at the end of the map -- to tell you that this existed to be found.

Old Post 01-05-14 07:55 #
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Platinum Shell
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Gez said:
When I design secrets to be really frustratingly hard to find, I do not make them count. First, it lets people get 100% completion without busting open the map editor, and secondly it does make discovery of the secret all the sweeter because there was nothing -- not even an incomplete tally at the end of the map -- to tell you that this existed to be found.


Not bad, but I didn't know you made maps.

Old Post 01-05-14 08:29 #
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purist
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The advantage one time secrets have though is that once secrets are found once they are never secret again where as conditions may prevent the player reaching one time secrets which adds a variance to the play. I know there's buttloads of maps in the archive and I rarely return to PWADs but I think authors should design levels with the assumption that they will be replayed (worth discussing further, new topic?)

Gez's compromise is a good one though. I think I'll do that in future.

Old Post 01-05-14 09:06 #
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Alfonzo
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Gez's suggestion is a great one for sure. I'm just wondering if there's an argument for going the distance and axing the secret tally altogether. Secrets without the secrets, to put it plainly.

Old Post 01-05-14 09:21 #
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Antroid
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Alfonzo said:
Gez's suggestion is a great one for sure. I'm just wondering if there's an argument for going the distance and axing the secret tally altogether. Secrets without the secrets, to put it plainly.


I feel like that would work better if one could somehow prevent the maps from being opened in any editor. Maybe something with scripts, compiled zdoom scripts can't be understood and decompiled, right? That seems the only thing that can be truly secret in a doom wad.

I actually would like it a lot if it was possible to hide stuff in a way that a simple trip to doom builder wouldn't reveal.

Also I think that the "make levels with replays in mind" thing is an interesting topic, I would surely make a barely coherent post in it if it was made.

Old Post 01-05-14 10:02 #
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schwerpunk
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Personally, I like secrets that are really obtuse, because they add to the mystery and replayability of a level. I don't even care if I ever get it, but just being teased with the possibility of a secret is exciting. For instance, until joining these forums I was never sure how to get the way to the Chainsaw secret on E1M2 to open (the GR Door Open Stay linedef).

I put an even more opaque secret (to a Rocket Launcher) in my E2M2/E1M2 mashup for the switcheroom! project, as an homage to this fact. It really isn't obvious how you might've triggered it unless you open up the level in Doom Builder.

Really, there ought to be two classes of secrets in Doom: Actual, sector 9 secrets, and super secrets that only the very lucky, or the very cheat-y will get. I'm not even sure if the latter should be marked as sector 9, as finding them should be enough of an intrinsic reward.

Old Post 01-05-14 16:09 #
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