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Inkie
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Mine:

Zombiemen: Cannon Fodder, placed to get in the way like a speed bump, or to give ammo without quite just giving it.

Shotgunners: Wear out resources, give guns/ammo without just giving it.

Imps: Mostly cannon fodder, sometimes just to fill an area with projectiles

Chaingunners: Either in a small ambush, or in a sniping position to deny an area

Pinkies: Mostly to get in the way or sponge up damage, maybe deny rocket use.

Specters: Dunno. Using them in dark areas to make use of their invisible-ness makes them just annoying.

Cacodemons: Mid-tier enemy, would prefer to make use of their flight, if use them at all.

Lost Souls: Ambushes, they make no noise when alerted, so I put them out of view but within hearing. Also to deny rocket use.

Pain Elementals: Draw the attention of the player or add a sense of urgentcy.

Arachnotrons: Deny an area with a stream of projectiles, keep a player moving in one direction.

Hell Knights: Mid-tier enemy, if the flight of cacodemons would not be useful.

Barons: Dunno. Big damage sponges.

Revenants: Glass cannons, dangerous but short lived.

Mancubi: Area denial, encourage the player to use infighting, minor damage sponge.

Arch-vile: Mini-boss. Try to take advantage of its revival ability or its unique attack.

Cyberdemon: Standard boss. Height advantage can be nice.

Mastermind: Boss. Deny an area or encourage infighting. Is often too big.

Old Post 03-09-14 20:07 #
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C30N9
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Zombiemen: Place filler.

Shotgunners: Narrow corridors or snipers.

Imps: Place filler. Sometimes placed at the beginning for steady change in difficulty.

Chaingunners: Traps, mostly in lines or organized formation.

Pinkies: Low floors or massive areas.

Spectres: Dark areas, simple as that.

Cacodemons: Anywhere, but I like to hide them behind something so they can find their way.

Lost Souls: Anywhere.

Pain Elementals: Same as cacodemons, only in bigger places.

Arachnotrons: Snipers.

Hell Knights: Anywhere.

Barons: Also anywhere, usually guarding a key or a switch.

Revenants: Anywhere, mostly behind cages.

Mancubi: Ambushes.

Arch-vile: Places filled with corpses. Traps.

Cyberdemon: Huge areas with something precious guarded.

Mastermind: Huge areas and good snipers.

Old Post 03-09-14 20:40 #
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Marcaek
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Inkie said:
Mine:

Zombiemen: Cannon Fodder, placed to get in the way like a speed bump, or to give ammo without quite just giving it.



Zombiemen are pretty much exactly that.


Shotgunners: Wear out resources, give guns/ammo without just giving it.


Shotgunners are generally the hitscanner you want to use. They don't fire too quickly, but are capable of high damage and really put the pressure on in combination with projectile monsters.


Imps: Mostly cannon fodder, sometimes just to fill an area with projectiles


Imps can be very effective if placed in a way to maximize area denial. You don't even need a lot of them if the area isn't too big or has very little safe space to move(IE a walkway over damagefloor)


Chaingunners: Either in a small ambush, or in a sniping position to deny an area


Chaingunners are great snipers. You can use them in any way which takes advantage of their long range, high ROF, or instant-damage dealing.


Pinkies: Mostly to get in the way or sponge up damage, maybe deny rocket use.


Demons are fantastic blockers, great in combination with slow projectiles. Also effective in hordes.


Specters: Dunno. Using them in dark areas to make use of their invisible-ness makes them just annoying.


Using spectres in areas where you can't really see them is the whole point of the monster. They work well in areas with dark, grainy textures.


Cacodemons: Mid-tier enemy, would prefer to make use of their flight, if use them at all.


Cacos are best when you use them for their flying abilities, also a great horde monster because they can't be funneled in the same way as say, hellknights. Also good in open areas where the player has little room to move safely.


Lost Souls: Ambushes, they make no noise when alerted, so I put them out of view but within hearing. Also to deny rocket use.


Great sneak attackers and horde monsters. The chaos generated from lost soul infighting can make an open area very dangerous in combination with other monsters.


Pain Elementals: Draw the attention of the player or add a sense of urgentcy.


This description doesn't really mean anything. Pain elementals are a great way to harass the player from a distance where your weapons can't adequately deal with them. Using them in close quarters demands the presence of other monsters due to the fact they're helpless in melee.


Arachnotrons: Deny an area with a stream of projectiles, keep a player moving in one direction.


Pretty much, great pressuring snipers.


Hell Knights: Mid-tier enemy, if the flight of cacodemons would not be useful.


Hell knights are absolutely useless on their own. They need the presence of another source of pressure to have any effect. Best use is for pushing the player into danger. Think about it though, in an open room with 2 hellknights, how are they going to pose a threat to anyone who knows how to sidestep? If you see a HK or by extension baron used in the open then you can safely ignore it with no risk posed to you, not fun or threatening.


Barons: Dunno. Big damage sponges.


Please don't use barons as damage spnoges, plinking at helpless barons is not fun. Barons are meant to be used in a way that takes advantage of their high HP, so like narrow walkways or very small rooms that the player can't easily get out of. If you absolutely want to use a baron but have room for 2 hellknights use 2 hellknights, at least that way they can compliment each other's field of fire.


Revenants: Glass cannons, dangerous but short lived.


The homing ability and quick melee makes revenants useful p much anywhere. Their low HP makes using hordes of them attractive to some people.


Mancubi: Area denial, encourage the player to use infighting, minor damage sponge.


Damage sponge is a terrible monster role, really. The non-straight attack makes the mancubus like a better hellknight due to the exponential pressure it applies.


Arch-vile: Mini-boss. Try to take advantage of its revival ability or its unique attack.


Archviles are great for denying territory as anything in their LOS is the dangerzone. Probably the most pressuring monster in the game unless you just stick one in a room with plenty of cover or something.


Cyberdemon: Standard boss. Height advantage can be nice.


Standard boss in meaningless. The Cyber is a big baron with splash damage really, demands to be used in a way that takes advantage of it's strengths, not just tossed in because someone wants a boss monster.


Mastermind: Boss. Deny an area or encourage infighting. Is often too big.


Masterminds are hard to use. In the open? Attack is too devastating. Cramped area? Just camp a doorway or something. Want to use multiple spiders? They'll kill each other. They're great if you use them to provide supressing fire in an open area provided you can't get to the monster easily, but on their own either you need to provide cover or not, and either option renders the thing unusable.

Old Post 03-09-14 20:53 #
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Janus3003
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http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/066/0/2/how_to_make_a_hardcore_map_by_janus3003-d79b26m.jpg
^All the enemy placement you need to know for a truly hardcore Doom map.

Last edited by Janus3003 on 03-09-14 at 21:09

Old Post 03-09-14 20:58 #
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purist
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Former humans are fun to kill. I like using them in groups as a bit of fun, especially where the player gets a new weapons. Moving a line of them with a chaingun or blasting a big pack with the RL is satisfying.

Sergeants are good trap monsters. I often find myself using the deaf flag on them to setup ambushes. Very versatile multi purpose monster.

Changunners I use to force a player to move. A pair at mid range with a little cover is often a dynamic setup.

Imps can go pretty much anywhere. I have started using packs of these low tier monsters I place of mid tier monsters as it multiplies projectiles and reduces HP grinding.

Demons and Spectres I use in groups and usually either directly after a sawtooth to trap a player or in combination with other monsters to add a low threat complexity to a fight. Spectres I most often use where there is lighting contrast so their visibility varies.

Lost souls I under use but can be placed in a similar way to demons but where their height variation is also an advantage. I like to have them come out of holes in the architecture. It just looks cool.

Pain Elementals are good from range. They're the best monster for forcing a player closer to the fight since sniping at them will do more harm than good.

Hell Knights and Barons are good where they can flank the player and close down space or add a low priority threat to a fight with other monsters. Like Marcaek says multiple HKs beat single barons every time where they fit.

Revenants are another versatile monster and are any easy way to add danger without making the fight into a slog. I like to use them where their movement speed gives them an edge rather than their homing missile.

Mancubi are good space defenders and it doesn't take many to make dodging their fireballs difficult. I like using them to 'block' the players way or at least make it harder to pass.

Arachnatrons are quite similar to Mancubi I suppose. I don't use them a lot due to the awkwardness of their size but if I'm making a really big space I try to remember them. I find their attack a bit more unforgiving than Manc fireballs so I don't give them quite as much of an edge unless the player is expected to be well equipped.

I most like using Arch Viles for resurrecting but their attack is a threat of its own obviously. I use these in a similar way to Revenants but more rarely and in lower numbers. Provided the player has a fair opportunity to get in close they're a monster that make it easy to setup a threatening but not unfair or prolonged fight.

Cyberdemons I still haven't quite got the hang of. I don't think I've placed one that doesn't bore better players than me. From popular PWADs I've played they seem popular as difficult to kill turrets that oversee large battles.

Spider demons are even more difficult to place. I imagine that they work well where they are combined with other monsters but unlikely to be crippled by infighting or in gimmick situations. I have this idea to have two in adjacent, seperated rooms where the object is to remove the seperating wall like that Blind Date show and have them rip one another to shreds!

Old Post 03-09-14 22:02 #
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Patrol1985
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Janus3003 said:

^All the enemy placement you need to know for a truly hardcore Doom map.



Apparently the creators of Plutonia were inspired by this picture :P

Old Post 03-09-14 23:00 #
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Memfis
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purist said:
Cyberdemons I still haven't quite got the hang of. I don't think I've placed one that doesn't bore better players than me.

So the cyberdemon chase in that collab map you did was Steve's idea? If not, then you've placed at least one good cyber. :)

Old Post 03-09-14 23:07 #
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IMX
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[note-taking intensifies]

Old Post 03-09-14 23:21 #
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Jimothy
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Former Humans/Zombiemen: Standard cannon fodder. Not really much use for them imo.

Former Humans/Shotgunner: Still somewhat cannon fodder, but more dangerous than a Zombieman, especially if you're close enough.

Imps: Cannon fodder that has a lamer range attack. However, if you want to fill up a screen with fireballs...

Former Humans/Chaingun Commando: Evil bastards that have nothing better to do than turn you into the newest block of Swiss cheese at a moment's notice. Nasty in traps and/or sniper spots.

Demons: Can't really hit you, but if there are enough of them to get you stuck in a corner, you'll be feeling their jaws in moments.

Spectres: Demons, but invisible. Fun trap monsters in dark areas, which is demonstrated in Doom's E1. I think they first appear in E1M4 towards the end of the map.

Cacodemon: dat ass tho Big flying red balloons that like to either chew on you or zap you from a distance. Having a sky full of Cacodemons can be a lot of fun.

Lost Soul: They like to charge a lot. Other than that, they're just fast-moving cannon fodder.

Pain Elemental: Pretty much a large oh-shit monster that can spew out Lost Souls. If ignored long enough, you'll have hordes of skulls rushing to headbutt you to death.

Hell Knight: Lesser Barons that can dish out equal punishment while eating half the damage. Great in packs.

Baron of Hell: Big angry man-goat that likes nothing more than eating your bullets, rockets, and plasma while throwing terrifying green goo at you that hurts like hell if it hits. I don't tend to see many of them, but two or three at once is enough to send me running.

Revenant: Glass cannon, anyone? Their homing rockets hurt like a bitch if they hit, though a few SSG shots are usually enough to send them packing.

Mancubus: Fat guys with cannons for arms that can make your whole day go awry if there's enough of them. Having them snipe is quite a rough thing.

Arachnotrons: Little baby Spider Masterminds that can make you run for the hills with their plasma attacks. While they're not exactly fragile, and their attacks aren't too rough, either, enough of them will scare you witless.

Arch-Vile: Cruelty at its finest. They can either detonate you with a rangy attack that hits all the time unless there's something obscuring you from its line of sight, or they will bring back your fallen foes and send them to bash your head in.

Cyberdemon: Massive bullet sponges that'll blast you to bits if you're not careful enough. I usually see them thrown about in lots of places in slaughtermaps, though even in a normal map, they're a sight - and threat - to behold.

Spider Mastermind/Spiderdemon: Big angry spider demons don't make for good companions. Or enemies, for that matter. Their super-chaingun armaments make for a way to Swiss cheese you that makes chaingun commandos jealous. Again, I usually see them in slaughtermaps, but even then, they're a lot more fragile than the Cyberdemon.

Old Post 03-09-14 23:36 #
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Avoozl
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I find it absolutely frustrating when I am ambushed by a squad of many Revenants.

Old Post 03-09-14 23:49 #
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purist
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Memfis said:

So the cyberdemon chase in that collab map you did was Steve's idea? If not, then you've placed at least one good cyber. :)



Oh that was mine,yes. Thanks Memfis. It was a gimmick useage though, not a trick I could get away with repeating too many times, although I might recycle the idea again some day to see if I can improve the execution.

Old Post 03-10-14 00:47 #
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jazzmaster9
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Here's my assesment for how I use various Monsters in my maps.

Zombiemen: Good Cannon Fodder, Nice to just spam every where

Shotgunners: Good For slowly wearing you down, good a mid range

Imps: Swarming the player

Chaingunners: Good in all distances, devastating upclose, Nice monster to use in monster closets

Pinkies: Tough Cannon Fodder

Specters: I can't see shit in this dark room... Some one is bitting me ,oh I'm dead.

Cacodemons: They're ability to fly makes it so that they can reach you almost anywhere.

Lost Souls: Annoying Cannon fodder.

Pain Elementals: ... I don;t use them that much

Arachnotrons: Good in long distances

Hell Knights: Good gameplay speed bump

Barons: Boring gameplay speed bump

Revenants: Makes the player move around a bit, also good a distraction to throw the player off.

Mancubi: same as revenant, makes you move around

Arch-vile: Monster Refill, Pushes player back.

Cyberdemon: For Epic fight

Mastermind: same as chaingunner but with more health

Old Post 03-10-14 02:32 #
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Melon
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Pistol zombies are almost never threatening but are fun to shoot, so they work well as padding. Because they die so fast you'll get more mileage out of them if you try to spread them out rather than clump a load together. As a niche use, they're basically the only enemy that feels acceptable to use the pistol against for any extended period of time.

Shotgunners can be surprisingly brutal. Their massive burst hitscan damage is a property that no other Doom monster has, no matter how manoeuvrable you are or how often you're diving in and out of cover, these guys can wipe off large chunks of damage at a moment's notice if they can get close. I consider them to be one of Doom's "core" monsters, they have enough stopping power to prevent players from just rushing past a fight or camping strong defensive positions, and have low enough HP that they can fit into any situation without dominating or causing the area to devolve into a non-threatening extended infighting mess. Careful shotgunner placement can make a huge difference to gameplay. A point to beware of, their high damage output, low HP, and ability to infight with each other means that large swarms of them don't really work as they're very effective at just mowing each other down.

Chaingunners can easily be one of Doom's most dangerous monsters and should be handled with care. If they can stay in extended line-of-sight with the player then they can dish out a lot of damage very quickly at all ranges and have just enough HP that they can survive a stray fireball and start causing some serious infighting. Chaingunners are the most effective monster at forcing the player to take cover and stay there; bad chaingunner placement can slow things down horribly but placed well they are a versatile high-threat monster that usually become one of the player's highest-priority targets.

Imps are the other "core" part of Doom's monster arsenal and are the bog standard projectile monster that can work in almost any situation. In my view they've always been the central point around which the entire rest of the game has been balanced, especially the player's weapons. They have low hp and a basic, low damage, slow projectile attack that can work either as the focal point of a fight or as supporting fire, and are equally suitable for appearing in low numbers or en masse. These are the most common enemy in a significant number of maps for a reason.

Demons / Specters are a fairly fast and wide hunk of meat that are very non-threatening due to their trivially dodgeable attack. Their primary use is to basically get in the way, accentuated by the way they move in a zig-zag and as such are useful for shaking things up in a fight by providing a bit of area denial. Used poorly, they're just as effective as getting in the way of the other monsters too and when placed solely by themselves their HP is just high enough to become a chore to plow through multiples of them. They work best in a supporting role during fights, although spectres have an additional niche use in dark atmospheric levels. Traditionally the fact that they are melee only has made it common to see them used to roam slime pits to slow down anyone who falls in.

Cacodemons are a fat, slow moving mid-tier monster with a basic projectile attack, but most importantly they can fly which makes them incredibly versatile. As they are the only projectile-throwing flying enemy they tend to see a lot of use; I'm not sure I consider them a "core" monster but they do fill a very common and useful niche thanks to their flying ability. While they can work in place of regular ground enemies, hell knights tend to fill that role instead, but cacos make for a good alternative, being wider, less deadly and having lower hp. To utilise cacodemons the most effectively, you need a good strong map layout, of course you want this anyway but cacos are the monster whose impact is most heavily affected by the map design. They are very good at pursuing the player across the map if given the ability to do so.

Lost souls are the masters of chaos. Due to the nature of their fast unpredictable charging and ability to infight with themselves they can cause a lot of ruckus. They are easily sidestepped but then they'll be coming at you from behind a short while later, so they have a tendency to sneak up on you and make you eat your own rocket at point blank. Their high hp and tendency to fight each other in the middle of the room can make them pretty boring to fight in great numbers, but a few of them placed carefully to support a fight can add a lot of unpredictability.

Pain elementals are kind of bizarre. They cannot hurt you at melee range but are an extremely high-priority monster as they can very quickly flood the level with lost souls if they can stay in line of sight with the player or start infighting. These guys are very hard to use well in a map, they can't be used in cramped conditions without being rendered completely harmless, but you also don't want them hiding far away in an open space or else they will flood the level with lost souls and risk turning it into an unfun slog. I personally find they work best when placed away from other monsters and each other, gives them the opportunity to not quickly end up at melee range with something and not start infighting straight away; essentially serving as a high-priority distraction.

Hell knights can have strong presence in a fight but usually remain low priority due to their high hp and easily dodged basic projectile attack. They are capable of dishing out a respectable amount of damage if they hit, so generally the role they fill is one where you want a central threat in a fight that can't be ignored but is best left alive until the end. They can continue to provide pressure on the player to keep moving all the way until the end of the fight. Pretty boring to fight when placed on their lonesome due to their high hp but basic attack.

Barons of Hell are tricky to use because they have so much hp, often when a baron could be useful using two hell knights instead is more fun. You should think very carefully before placing a baron, their only use is basically having incredibly high hp relative to their threat level and this isn't a niche that you need to fill very often.

Revenants deal outrageously high damage (as high as 80%!) when you consider their fairly low hp and hard to dodge homing projectile, which has made them a pretty controversial monster. However they are a very versatile monster that work in a whole range of situations due to their particular behaviour. They are almost designed to be fought with the SSG, they can survive a single blast and will retaliate with a powerful missile, but won't otherwise fire when in close range to their target. They move fast, their hp is not too high, and their missile attack is more interesting than a basic projectile. But do take into consideration the high damage output, they have the second most dangerous projectile in the game, second in damage to the cyberdemon and arguably the hardest to dodge. Even a player with blue armor can find himself taking over 25% damage to his health with each missile. Its easy to fall into placing revenenants everywhere because they're so versatile but they can also be very punishing to fight.

Mancubi fire off a quick volley of fast moving wide spread shots that are hard to deal with if you can't give them your full attention, but they also cause a lot of infighting very easily. Placing lots of mancubi together can quickly turn an area into unmanageable bullet hell. I find they work best in isolated raised positions where stray shots are less likely to effortlessly trigger en masse infighting but the shots still pose a threat to the player. They need more attention the closer you get to them as the spread shots are more likely to hit. They're another way to force the player to keep on the move.

Arachnatrons are a monster I want to love but they're tricky to use. They're extremely wide and stun incredibly easily, they're no threat when you can give them your attention but if you don't then they can kill you very quickly as the plasma is quite damaging. Like mancubi, their projectile spam very easily triggers en masse infighiting when placed on a flat plane, so height variation is advised. They're most easily placed as turret but can make for good roaming monsters in wide open areas.

Arch-viles have a particular set of behaviours that I find tend to limit their use. You must have cover available or their flame attack will kill you quickly, but this makes them slow and dull to fight on their own. When used alongside other monsters for resurrecting duty, they very easily get involved in in-fighting as they always immediately swap targets when hit. They are an incredibly high-priority monster due to the resurrecting and massive damage output; add in the fact that their attack can still connect when other monsters are between the vile and the target and they tend to work best in the back row to encourage the player to push through a horde, or as a turret that forces a lot of area denial over the player.

Cyberdemons, high damage, high hp, splash damage. These guys are threat priority number one and add a lot of danger to a situation. Be careful of them killing all the other monsters though, they dominate most fights.

Spider Masterminds are too large to be used in most areas, and their deadly rapid fire hitscan attack means they need a lot of cover available for the player to survive. It can easily trigger infighting and then get stunlocked by other monsters, making it risky to place it in an area where other monsters can be shot by it. This monster is really only viable if the layout of the map is specifically designed to work for it, but is very limiting in what you can do with it, making it Doom's least useful monster.

Old Post 03-10-14 02:58 #
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Memfis
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Guys, I think you're all forgetting one monster...

Old Post 03-10-14 11:05 #
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Alfonzo
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Memfis said:
Guys, I think you're all forgetting one monster...

Our Heroes have a limited use due to their oppressive firepower and impossible running speed. Reserving them for open areas is obviously a given, as well as ensuring that the player has plenty of ammunition to waste on trying to take them down (missing such a fast moving target is inevitable), but I also like to include hordes of demons or lost souls to better challenge the player's movement skills as he attempts to dodge all that plasma, bullet and rocket fire as well as keep his distance. Multitasking and thinking on your feet is always fun in Doom!

Anyway, it can be a fun monster to fight but it gets misused too damn often. More than the baron and spiderdemon, even.

Last edited by Alfonzo on 03-10-14 at 11:43

Old Post 03-10-14 11:24 #
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Olroda
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Even Zombiemen can be threatening if used correctly.

This means large numbers, properly spread out on different height levels and surrounding the player. He shouldn't have direct access to most of these, though. No, they would be stationed at windows that provides them some limited cover. Close ambushes from odd directions should be added to the above for maximum effect. Combined, the player's health is whittled down, and especially so if he very offensive (as many are, I suspect). Darkness is also a powerful element that increases the difficulty of any situation.

Of course, if the player is smoking a cigar, has a chaingun with a fresh belt and access to health supplies, the Zombiemen are toast, but what if it ISN'T so?

Well, then things get interesting.

Some examples of what I mean, by author Nicolas Monti:
The initial fight of this one is similar to the scenario I described.
...And the first map of this one has some nasty, if simplistic ambushes (and a very fitting name, I might add).

As a last note, I find it ridiculous that people refer to someone armed with a shotgun or machinegun (or even a rifle!) as a 'sniper'. It is probably one of the more misused words of today. Sniping is about much more than just being able to hit what one is aiming at.

Last edited by Olroda on 03-10-14 at 12:44

Old Post 03-10-14 12:13 #
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Phobus
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My personal take on it is as follows:

Zombieman: They're either residual resistance used to populate areas without providing a real threat, or very occasionally a big horde that can be chaotic and dangerous, whilst also being fun to dispose of with a chaingun or powerful weapon.

Shotgun Guy: A source of shells and a versatile enemy, IMO. Makes a great lurker for corners, nooks and crannies, as well as a sniper and a good enemy to just scatter around as general resistance.

Imp: My workhorse enemy. They're background noise, general resistance, great for ledges, pits, low threat sniping, hordes and scattering around areas as either lurkers or free roaming enemies. They're usually the most populous enemies in my maps.

Heavy Weapons Dude: Sniping or area suppression are their main strengths, so I tend to put them in places they can't get out of. Also an obvious choice for ambushes and can serve as general resistance when the player is better equipped. Often the source of the chaingun in my maps, if the player doesn't start out with one.

Demon: I only ever seen to use these in three ways - they either lurk, come in hordes or serve as suppressive elements in bigger fights by blocking the player when he's fighting something entrenched.

Spectre: Very much a lurker, usually in dark or grey areas. I do send in the odd horde. Being harder to see does pigeonhole them.

Cacodemon: I like to let these roam across larger areas and come from less expected locations. The odd horde is also welcome. In corridors or other closed areas they're basically big imps, so I don't use them for that purpose unless the player is well-armed.

Lost Soul: I probably under-use these, but when they do show up in my maps it's often to lurk or ambush the player.

Pain Elemental: Another one I don't use that much, they're usually the centrepiece of an ambush if they do show up.

Hell Knight: My preferred "big Imp" enemy, they either lead a small pack of weaker enemies or serve the same purpose as Imps when the player has some firepower on his side.

Baron of Hell: Not a fan of these, but when I use them they either form the backbone of a larger, mixed horde or pressure the player with their inexorable advance.

Arachnotron: I generally use these as turrets, but they do show up as general resistance when things are meant to be hard.

Mancubus: Much the same as the Arachnotron, although I do let these free roam more often. They also show up in ambushes, particularly where bigger guns are shown.

Revenant: Ambushes are their bread and butter, but in harder maps I tend to throw them around like Imps, as the low health makes them pretty disposable.

Arch Vile: Another one I don't use much, they're usually either arena battles or ambushes. I usually have the player very well equipped when these turn up and plan fights around then being targeted first by the player.

Cyberdemon: Serves either as an arena fight, the top dog in a horde or as a major free roaming threat in my maps, although of late I have favoured using them as distant sources of area suppression that the player has to avoid until he's got the kit for the job.

Spider Mastermind: If they're not basically a big turret, then they're an ambush. I don't use them much at all, TBH!

Old Post 03-10-14 12:42 #
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Old Post 03-10-14 13:10 #
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Patrol1985
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No love for Commander Keen either :(

Old Post 03-10-14 13:13 #
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Maes
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Using Revenants so liberally "as imps" is a bit of a WTF, IMO. They are "weak" compared to other higher tier monsters, yes, but still have as much health as two Demons, while being much more dangerous in projectile and melee combat.

Their missiles, in particular, other than being homing, also do the highest damage of any non-rocket projectile (up to 80 HP), making them potentially 1-hit kill death traps if used in ambushes. They are also much more effective in infighting than what their health might lead you to think -they can often defeat a HK or even a Mancubus one-on-one, despite the latter monsters having more HPs, simply thanks to its higher accuracy when attacking and its mobility, which together give it more "aggression", if you wish. VS most monsters, a Revenant will manage to dish way more damage than its own HPs, before going down. Even a Baron, vs a HK, will probably lose way more than half ot its HP trying to take it down.

Even in melee range it has some advantage over HKs and Barons, attacking slightly faster and having a good chance of simply pinning down his victims in pain.

If Revenants were a street fighter, they would be a twitchy, hardboiled, "bad muthafuckah" cutthroat type. Not necessarily impressively strong or bulky, but getting shit done on sheer assertiveness, dirty tricks and aggression.

Old Post 03-10-14 13:45 #
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purist
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Maes makes a fair point. And here I was thinking he'd come to this thread to talk about his favourite sort of Cybie placement...

Old Post 03-10-14 14:01 #
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Phobus
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What Maes describes is exactly why I use Revenants as the staple enemy in hard maps. You're carrying enough kit to clear them out quickly and they can hit back pretty hard. It's a high risk set up where reactions and strategy are important for the player. In my "average map" they are essentially shock troops who serve as little spikes in threat against a background of mostly imps.

Old Post 03-10-14 14:22 #
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40oz
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Memfis said:
Guys, I think you're all forgetting one monster...


Are we still doing the yellow keycard joke?

Old Post 03-10-14 14:23 #
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vdgg
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I just imagined Kristian Aro putting some blue SS in his Brotherhood of Ruin and my reaction upon "playing": "oh no, this is wrong!"

Old Post 03-10-14 14:57 #
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joe-ilya
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Memfis said:
Guys, I think you're all forgetting one monster...


A whole 5 set.

Nazis: A weak and slower chaingunner that is good for secret maps and are mostly boring when placed behind a door.

Commander keen: A toy that is mostly used within a secret map and are targets to open a certain thing.

Romero Head: Must be hidden and mostly fits with the monster spawner in a final map.

Monster cube: Monster dispencer that's mostly used in a final map with the Romero Head.

Monster Spawner target: Don't go into them when there are Monster cubes around, they're like danger zones of some sort.

Damaging floor: Mostly used on liquids and sometimes means there's a radiation suit around, best when you must go through it.

Quick crusher: Used when there are multiplie crushers around that are hard to avoid.

Slow crusher: Usually big and is used in hallways.

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Old Post 03-10-14 16:48 #
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SS Nazis: DeHackEd cannon fodder

Old Post 03-10-14 21:29 #
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printz
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Former Human: just an introductory joke of a monster. Should mostly appear in early techbase maps as a small threat, in reasonable numbers. They might be effective when placed in alcoves and such, against an unarmoured player. They really have no place in medium-hard maps, they look like an anomaly there.

Former Human Sergeant: Much more versatile, they can fit in any place. They're somehow like the Wolf3D enemies, just without the teamwork factor, which means they shouldn't be put in hordes.

SS: I've really rarely seen them, probably because of Nazi sensitivities. But when they appear, they tend to appear in hordes in abstract-looking Doom 2 maps in specially crafted places. You can't tell if they're firing at you or themselves, which has a psychological effect. Otherwise they're like (much) weaker chaingunners, good at being a mild priority.

Imp: The most common monster in Doom. Sometimes they're pushovers though, especially when placed all in front of you.

Heavy Weapon Dude: In hard maps, they almost completely replace the sergeants, and for good reason. They're a popular choice of a monster behind wall curtains.

Lost Soul: Probably the silliest monster in Doom. Good ammo sponge and interesting flying dynamic if left time. Good in alcoves, especially 16-wide ones.

Demon: The typical hell dweller. Great as a support challenge on you, and usable almost everywhere, though still generally a low-end monster.

Spectre: They're at their best in slime or ashwalls. Hardly visible there.

Revenant: The grim reapers of Doom, many time my session ended as I was carelessly blown up by their rockets. They're also very noisy, and look very ugly in the Doom environment, which has a psychological effect too: can make me dislike Doom 2 for its ugliness. They're versatile which means they can appear in many places, but can make the map feel painful at times.

Cacodemon: The typical flying monster, very maneuverable, grinning at you like that. They're very painful at melee range.

Pain Elemental: Weak as hell at melee range, they're at their best when you can't reach them, but can't easily focus on them either (because of other more immediate threats). Generally the gameplay against them is cover-shooting.

Hell Knight: Can be used as a replacement for the imp in advanced maps. Otherwise they're great in cramped places. Their scratch is very powerful, and hard to avoid if you try to run past them.

Arachnotron: Not very maneuverable because of their large size, and not very resistant, but their plasma attack is useful. I admit I've rarely seen them used effectively: most of the time they're easily dealt of by most of your weapons. If they do manage to take a shot, they can keep you cornered.

Mancubus: Useful in large areas where their spreadfire can keep you retreated. Can easily get along with other monsters if they're placed apart, without becoming weaker because of distance. They're boring if the player only has the shotgun, though.

Archvile: Pretty much a boss-level monster, there should always be some cover against them (failing that, the player needs a plasma gun or BFG and fast reaction). Their resurrecting power can be their weakness, as it keeps them busy.

Baron of Hell: Good as a replacement for Hell Knight hordes in late maps, can mean "we really aren't going to joke here". Also good as support monsters if you want to keep the player busy.

Spider Mastermind: Generally considered the clumsiest. Best if appearing as a boss you have to fight directly. It often needs to be aided by environmental effects (slime, Boom wind). Never place it on the same ground as imps, demons, spectres, knights, revenants, barons. They easily get jammed by the melee monsters, and it's never cool when a lone spectre solves the whole problem for you. They can live with mancubi placed on higher ground, because the mancubi will focus their fire on you, while you're probably away from the spider, while the spider will not be able to accidentally hit the mancubi. Kind of useless with arachnotrons, even though unfortunately they're often featured that way in maps. Also not very useful as turrets, unless you can't reach them easily (even them, they might help you more than harm you). Useless if the player has any plasma gun and ammunition.

Cyberdemon: Much more versatile than the spider, a threat at any time. Of course, they're best when they're free to roam, but can also be used as turrets.

Boss Brain: Very much the ultimate evil, and the very thing you're moving against in Doom 2. If there's one around, it means the map has a short time limit during which you need to figure out the shit to do. And that's usually not easy to accomplish, requiring good reaction inside an increasingly infested level. And there's lots of variety on how to use this monster: can be simple like in Icon of Sin, can be multiplied, can appear in many places that can trigger if you do something wrong etc. Of course it can only be reliably used in MAP30, due to the missing telefrag otherwise (though there are cleaning solutions, such as crushers in remote teleport destinations…)

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Old Post 03-11-14 08:08 #
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Doominator2
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printz said:

Spider Mastermind: Generally considered the clumsiest. Best if appearing as a boss you have to fight directly. It often needs to be aided by environmental effects (slime, Boom wind). Never place it on the same ground as imps, demons, spectres, knights, revenants, barons. They easily get jammed by the melee monsters, and it's never cool when a lone spectre solves the whole problem for you. They can live with mancubi placed on higher ground, because the mancubi will focus their fire on you, while you're probably away from the spider, while the spider will not be able to accidentally hit the mancubi. Kind of useless with arachnotrons, even though unfortunately they're often featured that way in maps. Also not very useful as turrets, unless you can't reach them easily (even them, they might help you more than harm you). Useless if the player has any plasma gun and ammunition.


I find that the mastermind can be more menacing than the cyberdemon at times. After you get used to dodging his rockets he can be easy to beat. But in open areas while fighting the mastermind he can be absolutely devastating.

Old Post 03-19-14 13:00 #
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Suitepee
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Revenants: NOT to be used as 'snipers' placed miles away from human civilization so the player has to deal with a billion homing rockets coming at them every so often. Also I really hate Revenants personally, so I prefer maps without any of them on it.

Chaingunners: If you want a trap that involves 4 or more chaingunners instantly dealing damage to a player from multiple directions that the player cannot dodge, essentially turning the trap into a 'damage sponge' kind of deal, I hate you. Feel free to also put chaingunners in sneaky spots so the player can't spot them straight away and take 50% damage wondering where they are. Even more deviously, do that trick on Vile Flesh on MAP16 where they are placed UNDER THE FLOOR AND CAN SHOOT YOU.

Shotgunners: please use more of these instead of chaingunners. In fact, ONLY use these and pretend chaingunners don't exist, except when I need one to kill a Mancubus. I can tolerate annoying 'damage sponge' traps with these guys, especially after having played Double Impact.

Archviles: to be placed anywhere when a room has been cleared of monsters and needs to be repopulated. Preferably alongside 10-100 "meat shields" to protect the Archvile whilst it does its tiresome medical duties.

The rest: do whatever you want. Just remember to design traps with other monsters.

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Old Post 03-19-14 13:27 #
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Jimi
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Zombieman: in places where they will kill you when you have low hp

Nazis: raiding the lost UAC crate

Commander Keens: under crushers. It's not enough to just hang them

Icon of Sin: inside the lost UAC crate

Barrels: places where they can sneak up on you when you least expect it

The mysterious Blue Sphere: high, so high, that it makes you wonder, why did she ran away? And when you're through wondering useless thoughts, it's still high

Cyberdemon: there's so many rocket boxes here, that a cyberdemon must be nearby!

The Rock: into a place where he can eternally raise eyebrow at you

Our Hero: ...

Old Post 03-19-14 17:10 #
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