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Seele00TextOnly
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The Doom 2 monsters add so much to the game that I can barely tolerate Doom 1 mapsets.

Without Doom 2 there wouldn't be the longevity and enduring active fanbase of anywhere close to this size, of this I am certain.

Though I guess it could be characterized as an expansion pack, sure. Did those even really exist back then? So it got called a sequel and as for how sequels usually go in modern terms, sure it doesn't quite stack up the same way.

Old Post 03-23-14 00:54 #
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didy
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doom 2 is the one and only... for me...

Old Post 03-23-14 00:56 #
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Suitepee
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IMX said:
NOVA: The Birth, a great wad you should check out!

[/voluntarily made promo]



I back this promotion. And nothing else from this soon-to-be-DOOMED thread.

__________________
www.youtube.com/JohnSuitepee = I like to Let's Play doom wads.
http://www.twitch.tv/johnsuitepee/ = Back to Saturn X Episode 2- part 2 stream coming soon....

Old Post 03-23-14 01:52 #
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Five Magics
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B-B-But what about the Super Shotgun? D:

But in all of seriousness, I can hardly see why you think this way. Sure the maps were mediocre at times and the textures were all over the place but the new monsters really add to the experience.

Old Post 03-23-14 02:06 #
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Megamur
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I do feel that Doom II's atmosphere was less cohesive and creepy than Doom's. The new monsters were a great addition, but the super shotgun is really unbalanced and you can nearly beat the entire game with it alone. There's a reason "Buckshot" mode exists, because the SSG is just too good.

Old Post 03-23-14 03:02 #
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Avoozl
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But when you think about it the new monsters were a lot tougher so that's probably why the Super Shotgun exists I guess.

Old Post 03-23-14 03:17 #
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Megamur
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Even so, the SSG could stand to be better balanced, either firing more slowly or firing fewer pellets per shot. As is, it basically replaces the standard shotgun and even the rocket launcher to a degree.

Old Post 03-23-14 03:21 #
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XCOPY
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Pain elementals feels useless in the game, all you need to do is run for him to get a few kisses. Seriously, these guys are helpless most of the time I chase them, they need a melee attack to prevent abuse of such bug.

Revenants and mancubi are probably more your allies than your enemies, you can literally use revenant's rockets to your favor, mancubi are constantly infighting the other monsters, besides, they are pretty helpless alone.

Skipping hell knights...

Chaingunners, well, you can make infights with them, but you get fucked easily by them, my bad, I will step back and say this zombie is awesome, a rape machine, they deserve respect.

Arch-vile: FTW, nuffin' said.

Arachnotrons feels like a copy of the mastermind, i have yet to see them being used effectively like in Dead Simple, they encourage infighting a lot, bleh.

Wolfenstein SS feels redundant to the chaingunner.

There you go, these are the reasons i don't like many of the newer monsters, most of them are because they infight more frequently, discuss.

EDIT: SSG - This weapon has a surprisingly high damage output (higher than RL!), so high that you will often get mad at a spawn fragger, there are no penalty for the user who loves to smack your face and then killing you with a single SSG blast once you respawn, no time to switch weapons.

Last edited by XCOPY on 03-23-14 at 03:35

Old Post 03-23-14 03:27 #
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Enjay
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Although I wouldn't go as far as to say that Doom2 was terrible, I do basically agree with the sentiments of the OP. Much of what I loved in Doom, I was underwhelmed by in Doom2. The maps were, for the most part, nothing particularly special IMO and nothing like as cohesive or immersive as the ones in Doom were for me. I didn't particularly like their logic, layout architecture and their lack of sense of place. Even the art direction of many of the textures was a bit dull and meh as far as I was concerned. And the music, oh yes, do I agree with the point about the music! The original Doom has one of the best game sountracks ever IMO. I was blown away by it in 93 and I still love it. The Doom2 soundtrack never gave me that same vibe. There are very few stand out tracks and those that are, are nowhere near as stand out as those in Doom. Much of the music in Doom2 felt, and still feels, quite inappropriate to me.

And the final boss is a wall with a hole in it. A rocket post box.

I think I slightly prefer the episodic structure of Doom over the one-game structure of Doom2 as well.

But then there is the extended bestiary. That was a significant addition to the mix. Some of the Doom2 enemies are excellent (and some are bloody annoying). The SSG, I can actually take or leave. I love the original shotgun. I think they got it just right. I don't think the SSG was really needed and it can actually be a bit unbalancing. I don't mind it being there but it's not that important to me.

So, as far as I am concerned, Doom beats Doom2 on almost every front except the bestiary. I remember being quite underwhelmed on my first play through of Doom2 and that hasn't really gone away. Of course I played it right through but I haven't done it that often since. I just don't like it enough. However, by the time Doom2 came out, I was already spending much of my time editing Doom and so Doom2 served primarily as an editing resource for me. I suppose it was kind of like an official Realm667-like resource to me long before the concept of such a resource was born.

Old Post 03-23-14 04:24 #
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Belial
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Seele00TextOnly said:
Without Doom 2 there wouldn't be the longevity and enduring active fanbase of anywhere close to this size, of this I am certain.

Agreed. The original bestiary is sorely lacking in mid-tier monsters, which makes it difficult if not impossible to create interesting combat scenarios. The basic fireball/hitscan attack patterns of the Doom 1 monsters don't help either.

It's the complexity that new monster behavior (homing missiles, monster spawning, constant rapid-fire and reviving) brought that's keeping single player modding alive.

Old Post 03-23-14 04:25 #
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cortlong50
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i cant believe im about to type this.

youre right. its true. youre right.
im not being sarcastic.

Old Post 03-23-14 04:32 #
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mrthejoshmon
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I'm gonna say Doom 2's textures are also brown as all hell and it can end up in some very drab looking areas (also, is it just me or did id go balls to the ball with the texturing in Doom 2? It looks all over the place).

Old Post 03-23-14 04:35 #
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SlashBane
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Doom II great in every way and any excuse you can come up for stating it's a bad game as fact will fall flat on it's face.

Old Post 03-23-14 06:27 #
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DooM_RO
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Enjay said:
Although I wouldn't go as far as to say that Doom2 was terrible, I do basically agree with the sentiments of the OP. Much of what I loved in Doom, I was underwhelmed by in Doom2. The maps were, for the most part, nothing particularly special IMO and nothing like as cohesive or immersive as the ones in Doom were for me. I didn't particularly like their logic, layout architecture and their lack of sense of place. Even the art direction of many of the textures was a bit dull and meh as far as I was concerned. And the music, oh yes, do I agree with the point about the music! The original Doom has one of the best game sountracks ever IMO. I was blown away by it in 93 and I still love it. The Doom2 soundtrack never gave me that same vibe. There are very few stand out tracks and those that are, are nowhere near as stand out as those in Doom. Much of the music in Doom2 felt, and still feels, quite inappropriate to me.

And the final boss is a wall with a hole in it. A rocket post box.

I think I slightly prefer the episodic structure of Doom over the one-game structure of Doom2 as well.

But then there is the extended bestiary. That was a significant addition to the mix. Some of the Doom2 enemies are excellent (and some are bloody annoying). The SSG, I can actually take or leave. I love the original shotgun. I think they got it just right. I don't think the SSG was really needed and it can actually be a bit unbalancing. I don't mind it being there but it's not that important to me.

So, as far as I am concerned, Doom beats Doom2 on almost every front except the bestiary. I remember being quite underwhelmed on my first play through of Doom2 and that hasn't really gone away. Of course I played it right through but I haven't done it that often since. I just don't like it enough. However, by the time Doom2 came out, I was already spending much of my time editing Doom and so Doom2 served primarily as an editing resource for me. I suppose it was kind of like an official Realm667-like resource to me long before the concept of such a resource was born.



That is exactly what I feel.

Old Post 03-23-14 06:41 #
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Avoozl
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But what about in terms of difficulty? Surely Doom 2 had a higher difficulty than Doom ins some ways?

Old Post 03-23-14 06:52 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Doom's obviously cool, but I like doom2 way more because of the new monsters and ssg and the maps are cool.

Old Post 03-23-14 07:01 #
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babo
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Enjay said:
Although I wouldn't go as far as to say that Doom2 was terrible, I do basically agree with the sentiments of the OP. Much of what I loved in Doom, I was underwhelmed by in Doom2. The maps were, for the most part, nothing particularly special IMO and nothing like as cohesive or immersive as the ones in Doom were for me. I didn't particularly like their logic, layout architecture and their lack of sense of place. Even the art direction of many of the textures was a bit dull and meh as far as I was concerned. And the music, oh yes, do I agree with the point about the music! The original Doom has one of the best game sountracks ever IMO. I was blown away by it in 93 and I still love it. The Doom2 soundtrack never gave me that same vibe. There are very few stand out tracks and those that are, are nowhere near as stand out as those in Doom. Much of the music in Doom2 felt, and still feels, quite inappropriate to me.

And the final boss is a wall with a hole in it. A rocket post box.

I think I slightly prefer the episodic structure of Doom over the one-game structure of Doom2 as well.

But then there is the extended bestiary. That was a significant addition to the mix. Some of the Doom2 enemies are excellent (and some are bloody annoying). The SSG, I can actually take or leave. I love the original shotgun. I think they got it just right. I don't think the SSG was really needed and it can actually be a bit unbalancing. I don't mind it being there but it's not that important to me.

So, as far as I am concerned, Doom beats Doom2 on almost every front except the bestiary. I remember being quite underwhelmed on my first play through of Doom2 and that hasn't really gone away. Of course I played it right through but I haven't done it that often since. I just don't like it enough. However, by the time Doom2 came out, I was already spending much of my time editing Doom and so Doom2 served primarily as an editing resource for me. I suppose it was kind of like an official Realm667-like resource to me long before the concept of such a resource was born.


+1


cortlong50 said:
i cant believe im about to type this.

youre right. its true. youre right.
im not being sarcastic.


+1


XCOPY said:
Pain elementals feels useless in the game, all you need to do is run for him to get a few kisses. Seriously, these guys are helpless most of the time I chase them, they need a melee attack to prevent abuse of such bug.

Revenants and mancubi are probably more your allies than your enemies, you can literally use revenant's rockets to your favor, mancubi are constantly infighting the other monsters, besides, they are pretty helpless alone.

Skipping hell knights...

Chaingunners, well, you can make infights with them, but you get fucked easily by them, my bad, I will step back and say this zombie is awesome, a rape machine, they deserve respect.

Arch-vile: FTW, nuffin' said.

Arachnotrons feels like a copy of the mastermind, i have yet to see them being used effectively like in Dead Simple, they encourage infighting a lot, bleh.

Wolfenstein SS feels redundant to the chaingunner.

There you go, these are the reasons i don't like many of the newer monsters, most of them are because they infight more frequently, discuss.

EDIT: SSG - This weapon has a surprisingly high damage output (higher than RL!), so high that you will often get mad at a spawn fragger, there are no penalty for the user who loves to smack your face and then killing you with a single SSG blast once you respawn, no time to switch weapons.


Agreed, the new monsters definitey did add, the mancubus were fun.

Yup, the Pain Elemental and Hell Knight were GARBAGE.
Pain elemental is nothing but a baby-faced cacodemon that spawns the most annoying enemy in the game and doesn't even make any sense.

Hell knight is a baron with less hp, less damage, and shaded a different color. This reminds me of some spawns in WoW...

As for the SSG, there's no denying it's fun. Maybe its a bit OP. I like the original shotgun which is an INCREDIBLY diverse and useful weapon. But ssg and a couple monsters don't make up for doom 2 being the sorry excuse for a sequel to doom 1 that it was.

Old Post 03-23-14 07:06 #
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Tarnsman
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I like how instead of just saying "I agree with you Enjay, XCOPY, and cortlong50" you bloated your post so that 90% of it is content other than your input just to +1. I guess that just further proves my point that if you dislike Doom 2 you are a horrible human being who probably hates Christmas and murders puppies.

Old Post 03-23-14 07:25 #
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Khorus
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who cares about doom 2 when you can have strife

Old Post 03-23-14 09:43 #
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Da Werecat
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Megamur said:
Even so, the SSG could stand to be better balanced, either firing more slowly or firing fewer pellets per shot.

One of the main things Doom 2 accomplished is that fighting low-tier, mid-tier, and high-tier monsters is equally fun. Nerfing SSG would probably screw that up. Especially slowing it down.


As is, it basically replaces the standard shotgun and even the rocket launcher to a degree.

SG is better for firing at distance, through small openings, and at lone low-tier monsters. RL is much faster, and therefore is a more preferable choice when you have enough space to not blast yourself. It also has a potentially limitless effective distance, provided that the target is not very mobile and you don't have to worry about Doom's dodgy autoaim.

Old Post 03-23-14 11:42 #
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Gez
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babo said:
Hell knight is a baron with [...] less damage


BZZZT! Wrong!

It's exactly the same attack, using exactly the same attack function, throwing exactly the same projectile, and dealing exactly the same damage.


Khorus said:
who cares about doom 2 when you can have strife


This is a correct opinion.

Old Post 03-23-14 13:03 #
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Doomhuntress
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i've enjoyed Doom 2 substantially more than Doom 1, even though i have nostalgic ties to the shareware episode.

do i think it's better?

well, it's certainly a lot more fun than Doom 1 to me. the monster roster is more fleshed out, and you have a useful weapon to deal with them that's generally supplied with ammo. gameplay of Doom 1 is a slog if you're not playing a Romero-esque E1-replacement, and that's a bit underwhelming nowadays, due to how the atmosphere doesn't really deliver anymore (perhaps if i had a soundfont of this soundcard it might work better), and that it's too easy to gun down demons and imps with shotguns and chainguns.

don't get me wrong, i love the game all the same, but Doom 2 holds more enjoyment and, ultimately, feels more challenging and rewarding to go through, in the end.

Old Post 03-23-14 13:15 #
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Da Werecat
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Actually, yeah, Rogue did a much better job at making a true Doom Wolfenstein Catacomb 3D successor. It has interactive dialogs, story branching, and leveling. Everybody knows that these features, no matter how realized, are much more important for a shooter than a satisfying shooting mechanic or some other geeky nonsense.

Old Post 03-23-14 13:23 #
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Clonehunter
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In all seriousness, I have fonder memories of Doom II than Doom on the basis I've played it more. I've played both games, and Doom had superior levels design wise, but Doom II levels were simply fun. Some of them, like Downtown, were massive in comparison to much of anything from Doom (Minus the sizey Boss levels, although there wasn't a ton going on architecture wise). Doom II's bestiary is also much better, with plenty of new mid-tier monsters that can definitely warp up some new gameplay challenges.

Now, a number of levels from Doom II really aren't that great, Entryway for one, and Underhalls, and honestly the first four maps, really. But then some of the later maps do have some decent challenges and layouts going on. I've always been a fan of Suburbs and Tricks and Traps, to be honest.

Granted, overall, maybe I just find that the best thing from Doom II was, in all honesty, Plutonia.

Old Post 03-23-14 16:52 #
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purist
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My first experience of Doom II levels, having played Doom first, was that of disappointment. I think I liked the first 5 or 6 but thought the rest of the first episode was gimmicky, I thought the second episode was boring to navigate and too puzzly and I don't remember bothering with episode 3.

Now I appreciate the levels more as being more ambitious in scope, action oriented in gameplay and experimental in design. I accept this has positive and negative connotations. It's a shame, I don't think id really got past the playing with limits phase during level design (Romero excepted possibly). It would be interesting to see what they would have made with the time afforded to most PWAD authors.

I've always thought the additional beastiary was worth the sequel alone I terms of a better resource. I disagree with some of the complaints about the more complicated behavior limiting their use or making them annoying.

I've never been keen on the SSG though. It limits the use of the normal shotgun and RL which hurts the weapon balance.

Old Post 03-23-14 17:54 #
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dew
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purist said:
My first experience of Doom II levels, having played Doom first, was that of disappointment. I think I liked the first 5 or 6 but thought the rest of the first episode was gimmicky, I thought the second episode was boring to navigate and too puzzly and I don't remember bothering with episode 3.

I can understand this sentiment, actually. A player encountering both games for the first time might not recognize the minute differences and improvements, it's just blasting demons in both at a high pace in both and it's slightly harder with more sorts of demons in the second one... but where's my new wow, goddamit?


Now I appreciate the levels more as being more ambitious in scope, action oriented in gameplay and experimental in design. I accept this has positive and negative connotations. It's a shame, I don't think id really got past the playing with limits phase during level design (Romero excepted possibly). It would be interesting to see what they would have made with the time afforded to most PWAD authors.

This is where I'm losing you. What limits are you talking about? Doom 2 had them raised, because its more complex, sexier maps wouldn't even run with the original engine. I remember discussing this with essel at the beginning of d2twid development and there was a conclusion that some of the Sandy maps (namely 19 and 24) were made for Doom, but either they were constructed too late, possibly even after Doom maplist was already locked, or they were simply too big and wouldn't even run. In that sense, Doom 2 runs the maps Sandy wanted to make, but couldn't because of limits. If you mean that none of the Doom 2 maps pushes Doom 2's limits, then yeah, you may be right.

Old Post 03-23-14 19:13 #
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Jimi
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In my recent playthroughs of the various Doom IWADs, Doom2 was definitely one of the good ones. When played with pistol starts.. you don't get the SSG in every level. Freelook improves the usefulness of RL... up to the point where I might play a level through using only the RL.

Old Post 03-23-14 19:43 #
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DooM_RO
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It may be just an ugly map pack, but it's a still a damn fun ugly map pack.

Old Post 03-23-14 21:23 #
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Megamur
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Da Werecat said:

One of the main things Doom 2 accomplished is that fighting low-tier, mid-tier, and high-tier monsters is equally fun. Nerfing SSG would probably screw that up. Especially slowing it down.


Nerfing the SSG might actually cause you to switch weapons. You really don't have to in its current state. Shotgun shells are common ammo and are resupplied easily, and with enough time and maneuvering room, even cyberdemons can be taken down with the SSG without too much trouble. (If anything, sometimes the SSG is easier to use against cyberdemons, since there's less chance the shots will get caught on walls, like rockets and plasma would.)



SG is better for firing at distance, through small openings, and at lone low-tier monsters. RL is much faster, and therefore is a more preferable choice when you have enough space to not blast yourself. It also has a potentially limitless effective distance, provided that the target is not very mobile and you don't have to worry about Doom's dodgy autoaim.

The regular shotgun is now far too specialized, only being especially useful under very specific circumstances. Usually the SSG will take care of anything the regular shotgun can, and actually uses the shells more efficiently, since the regular shotgun fires 7 pellets per shell, and the SSG looses 10 pellets per shell. It's actually wasteful to use the standard shotgun.

The rocket launcher is still useful for the reasons you specified, but if you don't have a lot of space to work with, the SSG is clearly better. Rocket ammo is also generally more rare than shotgun shells, as I mentioned before. Furthermore, rocket splash damage is negated against cyberdemons and spiderdemons, so SSG blasts do more damage to those targets than rockets do.

It's really just too good of a gun. Forcing the player to use the berserk pack or rockets against medium targets provided much more tactical challenge.

Old Post 03-24-14 03:31 #
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myk
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Megamur said:
The regular shotgun is now far too specialized, only being especially useful under very specific circumstances.
Continuous play with saves will make it mostly useless except for a bit of sniping or maybe minor monster killing then and then if you have plenty shells and less bullets. But if you pistol-start any single level or every time you die, the shotgun, which is generally easier to find because shotgun guys drop it, will be useful on every stretch where you don't have the SSG yet.

Don't blame the shotguns, blame save-gamers!

Old Post 03-24-14 05:08 #
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