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Phml
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I'm pretty sure it is, but this is sarcasm, right?


No, I have seen the light. It's stupid to have to do the same thing more than once. You wouldn't read the same book twice. You wouldn't watch the same movie over and over. You wouldn't eat a whole plate of chicken once you had one bite. You wouldn't have sex with the same person again. Any experience is only worth something for as long as it is new. Challenges in video games are an outdated notion dating back to the need of arcades to keep us putting in more coins, MMOs to keep us paying a sub, mobile games to keep us watching ads. Besides, the whole notion of challenge through repetition is stupid. If I killed a monster once, I know I can do it and I don't ever need to repeat that part; much like if I pull off a home run, then there's no point in ever forcing me to do it again and instead I should be crowned international king of baseball on the spot. For that matter I should be emperor of video games as well, because I'm pretty sure I beat one of those.

Old Post 04-27-14 20:52 #
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40oz
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vdgg said:
let the 1st arch-vile appear, and we shall not put more than 20 of them in the remaining maps even on UV...


I understand your reasoning, but I think the id guys knew that they had created a pretty terrifying monster, so to use it sparingly doesn't really give the player a chance to learn and understand it, so when it finally does show up unexpectedly, the player has to panic and spam plasma at it until they can breathe a sigh of relief with the confidence that its dead.

I.e. I didn't even know archviles could resurrect monsters until I played final doom. I also didn't know revenants could alternate between homing and non homing missiles. It was the overall frequency of these monsters reappearing in final doom that made their behavior clearer and in turn, less intimidating, despite the challenge involved.

Old Post 04-27-14 21:00 #
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Da Werecat
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Xegethra said:
I think these "You hate challenge" comments are little unfair.

Pretty much like "Too many monsters at once, stoopid maps" statements.

Old Post 04-27-14 21:06 #
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Gez
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Sodaholic said:
I'm pretty sure it is, but this is sarcasm, right? The single player campaigns of too many modern AAA games amount to little more than FMVs rendered in real time, allowing you to pause the movie to "explore" what little area you can before moving on to the next scene. When gameplay is subservient to a plot that may or may not suck, it fails to be fun, and it should've just been a movie if the plot is worth telling, otherwise don't bother even making it, as it fails to satisfy both aspects. Story's fine, but in games it should be the icing, not the cake.


Spec Ops: The Line wouldn't work as a movie, though.

Old Post 04-27-14 21:45 #
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kristus
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dew said:
These threads are depressingly monotonous and uninspired. It's like a conspiracy of weekend warriors to bore everyone into admitting that challenge is unfun.

Old Post 04-27-14 22:40 #
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j4rio
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Xegethra said:
I think these "You hate challenge" comments are little unfair.



No, they are exactly spot on. We're talking about tnt/plutonia (although mainly plutonia, I guess), not sunder or whatnot. It's simple, really, you can even make a basic equation out of it: Dislikes plutonia because of gameplay = Most likely a clumsy player. Plutonia is easy and entirely fair (on UV of course) if you don't suck.

Old Post 04-28-14 00:00 #
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Xegethra
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No they are not spot on at all....as I've said, challenge isn't all the same in every game. It is possible to like one challenging game, but not another...easily. But just because of that one game they don't like, doesn't mean they hate challenge at all.

And to not like a certain challenge doesn't also mean you suck at it, out of the games I mentioned I suck at some of them but I still love playing them. There are challenging games I am good at, but also don't like. There never is just one way with these things.

And that's even putting aside that challenge often, is subjective. Whether they suck at the games or not.

So if someone doesn't like Final Doom's challenge, it doesn't mean they fear challenge altogether....they just don't like the game. Likewise, someone could find it easy game, and still not like it.

One game's challenge does not represent challenge as a whole.

Does it suck though? It's all in the individual's mind.

Last edited by Xegethra on 04-28-14 at 00:23

Old Post 04-28-14 00:16 #
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j4rio
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We're talking about one game, one core mechanics applied mildly differently, I see no point in bringing some hypothetical "other" games into discussion. If you like one game, then I don't see any real reason for disliking the exact same game other than sucking at it and trying to go philosophical about it and shit.

I was mildly bored so I felt like replaying plutonia a bit. Got from map 1 to map 26 in one go without dying. I'd be really glad if somebody could point out the dickishness and horrible unfair traps. Thanks in advance. Here's the lmp.

Last edited by j4rio on 04-28-14 at 00:40

Old Post 04-28-14 00:32 #
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Memfis
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so some guy who has been playing doom like 8 hours a day for 5 years managed to beat most of the maps without dying, that proves a lot

Old Post 04-28-14 00:44 #
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Xegethra
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All it I'm saying is the idea is that if people don't like Final Doom then they must be some sort of challenge fearing person, isn't so true....you can like one challenge and dislike another....that is simply the point I am trying to make.

So the idea that one doesn't like challenge just because they don't like Final Doom....is unnecessary generalisation and is wrong. I don't like Final Doom much, but as I've said, I also play and enjoy games that are way harder than Final Doom ever was. It's not a hypothetical game, I am just mentioning that other games exist to get my point across that challenge comes in more than one form than in this game.

Some might find this game hard, some might not....but even so if they don't like it, it doesn't mean they don't like a challenge, it also doesn't mean they necessarily suck at it either...they might do, they might not...but they can still dislike the game, and play other challenging games quite happily.

So you are good at the game and you like it? That still doesn't prove that people who don't like it fear challenge.

Old Post 04-28-14 01:13 #
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dew
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Phml said:
Tru gamers know the right way to have fun in a video game is to go from point A to point B seamlessly. Ideally, while being told a powerful story about social issues; otherwise that's just time you're not getting back.

Now I'm radioactive! That can't be good! Why can't we find a way to safely dispose of radioactive waste and protect environment? Even if I personally stop this alien invasion, what kind of planet will we be leaving to our children? And our children's children. And... Oh, the humanity!

Old Post 04-28-14 01:58 #
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Piper Maru
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I enjoy Final Doom more than Doom II. Potatos are pretty good, especially in French fries form slathered in ketchup or gravy.

Old Post 04-28-14 02:15 #
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Doominator2
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Memfis said:
so some guy who has been playing doom like 8 hours a day for 5 years managed to beat most of the maps without dying, that proves a lot

Reminds me of the guy who beat halo 2 on legendary without dying.

Old Post 04-28-14 02:20 #
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Piper Maru
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I can beat Plutonia Maps 1-32 without dying in one sitting, get me a Medal Mark.

Old Post 04-28-14 02:22 #
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Marcaek
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If you don't wanna learn how to play at the same level as people better than you but still want to complain about the difficulty maybe the challenge isn't the problem. Dial down from UV for once.

Old Post 04-28-14 02:29 #
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RUSH
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I really enjoy Plutonia. Sure, the maps could use more colour - but the gameplay is tense and fast paced. The textures and level layouts are pretty consistent throughout, and overall I spent way less time getting lost than I did with TNT.

Old Post 04-28-14 02:52 #
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Hectic
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I'm not into either Plutonia nor TNT. I don't like that in Plutonia, like OP mentioned, there is a focus on strong monsters (chaingunners, Revenants, etc.) more than in Doom II. I tried to play it several times, but I got bored after a while and just skipped to Go 2 It (despite I'm not that good) and then I was done. I've only played TNT once but never wanted to play it again. I had more fun playing other wads like Scythe and Congestion/Claustrophobia 1024/64.

Old Post 04-28-14 04:48 #
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Clonehunter
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As I've said a million times, I really enjoy Plutonia, but TNT is shit. Or at least not as enjoyable.

Old Post 04-28-14 04:53 #
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Avoozl
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I don't like either for different reasons but I at least enjoy a few of the TNT maps.

Old Post 04-28-14 06:58 #
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Jimi
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Plutonia gets more fun with mouse look. In a way it feels like it was designed for mouse look. And there's usually plenty of rockets and plasma to spell DOOM.

TNT had too much corridors, almost linking every room in the level together. And the corridors just fitted single enemies, which were usually shotgunners.

Old Post 04-28-14 08:25 #
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j4rio
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Memfis said:
so some guy who has been playing doom like 8 hours a day for 5 years managed to beat most of the maps without dying, that proves a lot


I'm not really trying to proove anything. I'm just curious. And I believe people like OP played it for a little longer, like at least over half a decade longer.

Last edited by j4rio on 04-28-14 at 10:03

Old Post 04-28-14 08:39 #
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Snakes
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Final Doom rocks my socks (Plutonia plus about 1/3 of TNT, anyways). Plutonia's approach to gameplay is excellent as most maps manage to be challenging without going down the HR2 road that most wads have embraced in the modern era. I like maps that have ~100 monsters and somehow still manage to kill me. Those are the best ones.

Sidebar: Am I the only person here who likes the Doom95-rendered version of TNT02's music. I mean - it sounds like a completely different piece, but I think both versions have their merits. I actually prefer it to the "full" version in a lot of ways. Far more atmospheric and it actually fits Map02 far better IMO.

Old Post 04-28-14 08:44 #
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NoneeLlama
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Final Doom sucks.

Doom II sucks.

When'll we realize that Doom just sucks?

Old Post 04-28-14 13:28 #
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Da Werecat
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Except PSX Doom, of course.

Old Post 04-28-14 13:36 #
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Macblain
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I enjoy low-powered, low-resource, low-tier hitscan-oriented gameplay, with a stronger sense of near-future military scifi. Hence I don't enjoy Plutonia so much. I've beaten it on UV, though, and I wouldn't dream of suggesting it isn't a great piece of work.

For example, when a level starts with a supershotgun and a backpack, it's passing over an arc of the gameplay development I really enjoy, so I'm disappointed.

I mean, I'm decent at Robotron, though I haven't made my first million yet. But the line-of-sight-oriented space-control gameplay interests me more than pure dodging gameplay.

This sort of thing appeals to me more in Heretic. I loved Curse of D'sparil. Magical pyrotechnics flying everywhere, bobbing and weaving.

I gotta say I'm not in love with E4.

Old Post 04-28-14 16:10 #
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Sokoro
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TNT: Evilution is fun!
Hopefully the three TNT-like projects, which are being made, get finished soon so that I can enjoy 96 new TNT maps!

Old Post 04-28-14 16:43 #
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MajorRawne
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dew said:
These threads are depressingly monotonous and uninspired. It's like a conspiracy of weekend warriors to bore everyone into admitting that challenge is unfun.

I disagree. Plutonia is extremely popular with hardcore Doomers, and I was trying to get their perspective. It also opens the question, "How do you provide a challenge for existing Doomers?" - do you create complicated map designs with lots of traps, do you use hordes of weaker monsters, or do you build a few ledges with Revenants and Chaingunners on them? Anders Jonsen, who I personally believe is the Lord of All Doom and should have his own statue, cut Valley of Echoes from Alien Vendetta partly for this reason, it seems.

As you all know by now, I am usually thinking of PSX Doom, and to me Final Doom felt like a separate game despite having all the same monsters, sounds and gameplay themes of the original. The atmosphere in FDoom felt bleaker, more hostile, but the challenge was much higher on a lot of the maps and it was more Doom back when Doom fever was at its peak. Overall, I don't look as fondly on Final Doom, there was a "charm" missing from it that the original seemed to have in spades. I tend to play Final Doom when I fancy being more frightened or having a good explore. Minos is my go-to map for exploration and Vesperas is a heartbreakingly beautiful experience. If I want to relive the good times, I play the original.

A lot of people tend to rate the Master Levels as inferior cow dung, but to me, the Master Levels are my favourite Final Doom maps (they're considered part of Final Doom on the PSX). At least, the ones which made it to the PSX are, I was not disappointed to lose Titan Manor or Bad Dream, for example.

Old Post 04-28-14 16:43 #
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Belial
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Plutonia best IWAD
TNT worst IWAD

Evens out so it sucks an average potato.

Old Post 04-28-14 20:50 #
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Pirx
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i enjoyed them both, just in a different way. tnt frustrated me by having me stuck in some huge map, unable to find the exit, plutonia by making me wonder how the hell some maps could be finished at all. to be fair, both episodes have their strong and weak maps. plutonia is just much less varied. tnt appealed more to me from the start because i liked liked exploring the vast, sci-fi themed maps more than the gameplay of plutonia with its shorter, harder maps.

well, that might have come from developing my skills, anyway plutonia grew on me as i learned the maps and how to deal with its ambushes. when you know what's coming it's fun to slaughter them, but to an unknowing player, running into a horde of revs repeatedly is frustrating.


just adding my potatoes to some remarks here...


mrthejoshmon said:
I found Go 2 It easier than Antichrist to be honest.


heh, i have a general dislike for this type of maps where you start on top of some tower with lava below in plain view of several monsters. if antichrist was bad, hr's post mortem was evil.



40oz said:


I understand your reasoning, but I think the id guys knew that they had created a pretty terrifying monster, so to use it sparingly doesn't really give the player a chance to learn and understand it, so when it finally does show up unexpectedly, the player has to panic and spam plasma at it until they can breathe a sigh of relief with the confidence that its dead.




scary? when i played map 11 for the first time, i ran out to the ring structure and tried to snipe him from there, not even daring to get close again to that guy.



Jimi said:
Plutonia gets more fun with mouse look. In a way it feels like it was designed for mouse look. And there's usually plenty of rockets and plasma to spell DOOM.



right, because you can snipe back at those pesky chaingunners. hm, i haven't played without mouselook in ages, the mouse feels weird to me without.

Old Post 04-28-14 22:00 #
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Belial
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Pirx said:
hr's post mortem was evil

<3

The first map I've ever played that crashed vanilla on a save attempt and the second milestone on my way to learning how to properly play Doom, the first being Doom E1-E3 on NM.

Old Post 04-28-14 22:36 #
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