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Patrol1985
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I know that Doom 3 rebooted the franchise, so let's forget about it for a while and focus on older titles.

From what I've read the pre-reboot canon consists of:

1. DOOM: Knee Deep in the Dead
2. DOOM: Shores of Hell
3. DOOM: Inferno
4. DOOM II: Hell on Earth
5. DOOM 64

Is that how it goes? DOOM's episode 4 ("Thy Flesh Consumed") was added later and it's not really known where it fits, so it's not canon. Furthermore, it features yet another Spiderdemon, which pretty much makes Inferno's Spiderdemon not so special anymore ("you killed a demon which supervised the whole invasion? Cool... here's yet another one")

The same goes for Final DOOM - each episode is an alternate history of what might have happened after DOOM II, but DOOM 64 is also a sequel and it's "the proper one" based on what I've read.

What about DOOM books / mobile RPG games / other franchises? Is the Doomguy officially related to Commander Keen and BJ Blazkowicz?

Old Post 06-01-14 11:18 #
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printz
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On my first Doom 2 playthrough, Doomguy was killed by the explosion, but MAP30 was still won. I like to believe that's the end. Storytelling got worse and worse as Doom progressed, to the point that the most notable plot point is Doomguy assaulting his criminal officer, totally off the game.

Speaking of this, has anyone tried making a megawad with said officer as villain?

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Old Post 06-01-14 11:45 #
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dew
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Sailor Jupiter finally realized Doomguy's heart is pure and she accepted his undying love and they lived happily ever after.

Doom canon is reserved for explaining irresponsible toxic waste handling, what the mancubus says and what that hole on caco's bottom is for.

Old Post 06-01-14 12:36 #
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Crasger
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printz said:

Speaking of this, has anyone tried making a megawad with said officer as villain?


Hmm... would be nice to do so. Sounds like a neat idea!

Old Post 06-01-14 13:37 #
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fraggle
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The story from the manual and the in-game story text from Doom 1, 2 and Final Doom.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Old Post 06-01-14 15:33 #
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dew said:
Sailor Jupiter finally realized Doomguy's heart is pure and she accepted his undying love and they lived happily ever after.


Oh No! DarkRevived has brainwashed dew!

Old Post 06-01-14 15:51 #
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Patrol1985
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fraggle said:
The story from the manual and the in-game story text from Doom 1, 2 and Final Doom.

That's my opinion, anyway.



Regarding Final DOOM, which episode do you consider to be a continuation of DOOM II? Or do they come one after another, if so then which is first?

Old Post 06-01-14 15:57 #
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40oz
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Even though released after doom 2, the ending text of ultimate doom literally reads "next stop, hell on earth." implying that its supposed to fill the gap between the two games.

I never took final dooms story too literally. They may as well just be pwads in my book. But to some degree I consider almost any pwad to be some kinda branch directly off of doom 2 in a choose your own adventure sort of way.

y'know how some tv shows (usually comedies or cartoons) generally don't demand that you watch every episode in sequential order to understand what's going on? Like something catastrophic will happen like somebody gets horribly injured or two best friends get in a huge fight but in any case manage to make everything all better before the end of the episode? That's basically how I view every pwad in terms of storyline I think. Every pwad is another episode of "a day in the life of doom guy" where every episode starts and ends with "okay everything is good now... Oh wait something horrible has happened! ...and everything is good now"

Old Post 06-01-14 18:33 #
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Patrol1985
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40oz I wholeheartedly agree with the "closed episode plot" idea, but there are some events in DOOM chronology that definitely happened and influenced future happenings. These include:

- Doomguy assaulting his superior in command (DOOM's manual)
- penetrating Phobos complex and getting teleported to lost Deimos complex (Knee-deep in the Dead)
- penetrating Deimos complex and climbing down Deimos to hell itself (Shores of Hell)
- defeating the Spiderdemon and teleporting back to Earth (Inferno)
- evacuating people to Earth's orbit and destroying the icon of sin (DOOM II)

I haven't played DOOM 64 yet, but it is said to follow DOOM II directly, thus making Final DOOM non-canon.

Where does episode 4 exactly fit in? I mean, Doomguy already went back to Earth at the end of Inferno, so does it take place on Earth? What's the purpose of this mission? Just destroying demons on Doomguy's way to the metropolis?

Old Post 06-01-14 19:18 #
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Clonehunter
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dew said:
Sailor Jupiter finally realized Doomguy's heart is pure and she accepted his undying love and they lived happily ever after.



Funny enough, I read this as Sally Jupiter, at first.

Old Post 06-01-14 19:28 #
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40oz
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Patrol1985 said:

Where does episode 4 exactly fit in? I mean, Doomguy already went back to Earth at the end of Inferno, so does it take place on Earth? What's the purpose of this mission? Just destroying demons on Doomguy's way to the metropolis?



I think so, yeah. There's not a lot to take in from it considering the map titles, the text ending and the orange sky, which is made from the ending cutscene of doom 1. I think the id guys just squeezed it in there. They made the maps first, the story second, most likely.

Old Post 06-01-14 20:20 #
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Only Doom 1/Ultimate Doom and Doom 2 form a complete story arc and were made by id directly. In the first act, Doomguy is demoted to a low-level grunt and left behind during the invasion of Phobos. Second act starts at E4M1 or MAP01 when Doomguy emerges to Earth thinking everything is going to be okay when it turns out his troubles are only beginning. The third act is when he locates the true source of the invasion and destroys it. E4 doesn't really conflict, but it is a stopgap/filler in the original pacing.

There's not really anywhere else the story could go without derailing from the current path or otherwise feel like a separate story or spinoff. Doomguy just killed the Icon of Sin, and now Earth is in tatters and he has to help rebuild it, that should take a long time. Any other story after that wouldn't feel remotely like the same arc, even if in the same continuity.

Old Post 06-01-14 20:27 #
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Patrol1985
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So DOOM 64 is on par with Final DOOM as far as continuation goes? Meaning that neither has priority over the other and one may choose whichever sequel they wish as none are considered canon?

EDIT: and what about mobile RPG spinoffs? Are Blazkowicz, Commander Keen and Doomguy related?

Old Post 06-01-14 21:45 #
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scifista42
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In Doom's case, I consider being "canon" as an equivalent to being the official idSoftware's release. Therefore - Doom 1, Doom 2, E4 and Final Doom, all events happening in them, and their manuals too. As I imagine it, every PWAD maker (or fiction writer or anybody) can base his work on the story or events or design or gameplay of the abovementioned originals, and see it as a branch/spinoff of a "canon" game. It's irrelevant anyway, nobody seems to care about what is "canon" (except this thread), specially not idSoftware, at least as far as I know.

I personally see Doom64, PSX Doom and (well) Doom 3 as "different worlds", which I call non-canon.

Old Post 06-01-14 21:46 #
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Patrol1985
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So once again - Final DOOM's scenarios (Plutonia and TNT) are mutually exclusive, as both happen immediately after DOOM II. Which of those do you consider canon?

Old Post 06-01-14 21:51 #
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scifista42
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Patrol1985 said:
So once again - Final DOOM's scenarios (Plutonia and TNT) are mutually exclusive, as both happen immediately after DOOM II. Which of those do you consider canon?
Can I consider both to be canon anyway? I'd justify it simply by the fact that id has released both Final Dooms even if logical meaning of the stories was flawed; because - truth to be told - quite a lot of things are "logically" not right with Doom and its story. We, the fans, will deal with it by explanation such as alternative realities, different Doomguy protagonists etc., I'm willing to believe it; and once again, I only care about it from a curiosity, but not taking "canon" and other Doom story discussions really seriously.

Maybe I just misinterpret the meaning of "canon" and spoil the discussion, in which case I apologize, I obviously speak only for myself.


EDIT:

Patrol1985 said:
By "canon" I mean the storyline which is "official" and as such can serve as the base for further adventures of the Doomguy.
In that case, I insist on what I've said. :p

Last edited by scifista42 on 06-01-14 at 22:33

Old Post 06-01-14 22:15 #
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Patrol1985
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By "canon" I mean the storyline which is "official" and as such can serve as the base for further adventures of the Doomguy. Naturally, it makes no sense anymore to think about it since DOOM 3 rebooted the story, but I was just curious if id Software cared at all about what was "official" in terms of the story, and if they did then which material was encompassed within the "official" plot.

I initially thought that DOOM 64 was official, but now I think that Sodaholic's version is closest to the truth, meaning that DOOM II effectively concluded the story.

Old Post 06-01-14 22:28 #
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fraggle
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Patrol1985 said:


Regarding Final DOOM, which episode do you consider to be a continuation of DOOM II? Or do they come one after another, if so then which is first?


Interesting question, and I hadn't considered this before.

TNT's story begins:

Though all the top management of the UAC were dead, and
so were most of their personnel down to the janitors, the
corporation survived, now under strict government
supervision. The UAC still sought the secret to matter
apportation, and continued its experiments under vastly
increased safety measures.



Plutonia's story begins with:

After Hell's catastrophic invasion of Earth, the United
States took steps to prevent such an invasion from
recurring. The old UAC corporation was refounded, under
completely new management (because the old trustees and
stockholders were all dead, this wasn't much of a problem),
and sent to research tools and technologies to prevent such
an incursion from happening ever again.


If I had to guess from the stories alone I'd say that TNT comes first, then Plutonia. My reasoning would be that they show a change of focus, from continuing to research dimensional travel (TNT) to researching defensive technologies (Plutonia). It's kind of like they've finally learned the lesson.

Contradicting this would be the end screen from TNT, which always felt like a "final end" to me.



Suddenly, all is silent, from one horizon
to the other. The agonizing echo of Hell
fades away, the nightmare sky turns to
blue, the heaps of monster corpses start
to evaporate along with the evil stench
that filled the air. Jeeze, maybe you've
done it. Have you really won?

Something rumbles in the distance.
A blue light begins to glow inside the
ruined skull of the demon-spitter.



Really the stories are both so very similar that it's impossible to tell for sure.

It's also possible that the two happen simultaneously at different locations, and you're playing different characters in each episode (kind of like how in Doom 3: ROE you were playing a different person). One site to continue researching the technology, and another to research defence against it. Sort of makes sense.

Supporting this, in the TNT story it's clear that you're the same marine who fought off the original invasions (now promoted to "marine commander"):

Only one man escaped death or zombification. The marine
commander. You. You weren't at the base when the skies
opened and devastation poured from the stars. You were
miles away, enjoying a walk across the moon's rough-hewn
landscape. Then you heard a snortling gurgle behind you and
whirled to face one of them. The beings that still haunted
your nightmares.

That's not so clear in the Plutonia story:


You were on leave at the beach, only a few minutes from
the complex, when you got the word. You suited up, grabbed
a pistol, and raced your pickup truck to the complex. When
you arrived, flashes of light, howls, and chanting could be
heard from the interior. Corpses were scattered everywhere.


There are also other options. For example it's slightly farfetched to imagine that, after Earth was almost destroyed in the original invasion, the government would continue making the same mistake over and over again. Maybe TNT and Plutonia occur in parallel timelines where different responses to the original invasion were taken?

But this is all really just guesswork. Perhaps it's easier to be stricter and just discount Final Doom as canon.

Old Post 06-01-14 22:32 #
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Sodaholic
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scifista42 said:
In Doom's case, I consider being "canon" as an equivalent to being the official idSoftware's release. Therefore - Doom 1, Doom 2, E4 and Final Doom, all events happening in them, and their manuals too.
I think there'd have to be some direct involvement from the key members of the original crew (Romero, Petersen, etc) to really be an id Doom game. Despite being published by id, Final Doom was just a couple of (high quality) fan-made PWADs until the last minute. Is Master Levels somehow canon to you just because it was published directly under id? You mention you don't view PSX Doom as canon, but if it has anything to do with the Jaguar level set, why isn't it also a canon depiction of the Doom universe, it was actually made by the key id guys.

And besides, 3DO Doom, SNES Doom, PSX Doom, and Doom 64 were all done by outside teams with near no involvement from id, yet they received approval and licensing from them and thus has the id name on it.


scifista42 said:
I personally see Doom64, PSX Doom and (well) Doom 3 as "different worlds", which I call non-canon.
I get Doom 3, and kinda Doom 64, but why is PSX Doom a "different world"? It was still closer to Doom 1/2 than it was either 64 or 3, probably because it was those games. About the closest to "different world" you can get with PSX is the differences in the Jaguar levels, as well as some levels (e.g. Tower of Babel) being moved to a different order. Cut/exclusive levels barely count to me, because sure, it leads to a different experience, but it doesn't necessarily conflict. PSX Doomguy could just have as easily have gone through Slough of Despair, and PC Doomguy could just have easily gone through Threshold of Pain, but simply wasn't depicted.

As for colored lighting and different sounds, I wouldn't consider that a valid reason to call it a different world, it's merely a cosmetic presentational difference.


fraggle said:
If I had to guess from the stories alone I'd say that TNT comes first, then Plutonia. My reasoning would be that they show a change of focus, from continuing to research dimensional travel (TNT) to researching defensive technologies (Plutonia). It's kind of like they've finally learned the lesson.
PSX Final Doom has TNT before Plutonia. I wonder if they came to the same conclusion because of that or just picked it at random. Maybe more for difficulty purposes since Plutonia is widely considered the harder of the two.


fraggle said:
For example it's slightly farfetched to imagine that, after Earth was almost destroyed in the original invasion, the government would continue making the same mistake over and over again.
Sounds like the perfect excuse to get you to keep buying new level packs. :P

Last edited by Sodaholic on 06-01-14 at 23:09

Old Post 06-01-14 23:03 #
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I consider all official, commercially released games to be canon. This is my understanding of the chronological order.

Knee Deep In The Dead
Shores Of Hell
Inferno
Thy Flesh Consumed
Hell On Earth
No Rest For The Living
Master Levels
TNT Evilution
Plutonia Experiment
Doom 64

Old Post 06-01-14 23:37 #
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scifista42
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Sodaholic said:
but why is PSX Doom a "different world"?
It's not a different world in the same manner as D3 or D64, but anyway it's not "compatible" with the original. It's a variation, parallel world, trying to be like the original, yet contains slight differences in happenings/storytelling (levels) and presentation (effects, sounds), which makes the difference from the canon version. That's all my justification, I hope you see.

The games I have deep-rooted as the officials are D1, D2, TNT, Plutonia, and I simply never cared much about the rest or viewed them as comparable "essentials of Doom games" as the abovementioned four. I respect D1 and D2 as the base of the story, and E4 and Final Doom as extensions, but still compatible and become recognized as canon too. If you ask me out of the sudden, I put my "in-canon" borderline right here, just naturally, I don't present it as a world opinion. I haven't even played most of the Master Levels.

I admit I haven't put much thought into my speech. I better give up.

Old Post 06-01-14 23:41 #
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The manual stories for Final Doom were written by id, not Team TNT/Casalis, so thats why the ingame stuff is weird; it wasn't changed by id.

I've always seen them as new missions set a long time after Doom 2, with Doom 64 as his final mission (It has a very final end to it)

NRFTL is the E4 of Doom 2, a random smaller adventure after the main event added to the canon later. It's pretty much about killing a bunch of remnant demons.

Old Post 06-02-14 01:00 #
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dew
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Clonehunter said:
Funny enough, I read this as Sally Jupiter, at first.

That old fox gets around, eh? She has the taste for the rip&tear guys.

Old Post 06-02-14 02:00 #
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scifista42 said:
It's not a different world in the same manner as D3 or D64, but anyway it's not "compatible" with the original. It's a variation, parallel world, trying to be like the original, yet contains slight differences in happenings/storytelling (levels) and presentation (effects, sounds), which makes the difference from the canon version. That's all my justification, I hope you see.
But aside from Tower of Babel being moved down a few slots, why are the missing and extra levels an incompatibility? I look at it as PSX merely skipping the depiction of some areas, not claiming them to not exist. And PC retroactively doing the same with the PSX exclusive levels.

In any case, I can still see how the map differences can be viewed as a conflict (though I personally think E2M8's position is the only one of note), but how on earth can the lighting and sound effects be considered a universe/continuity incompatibility? The imp roaring slightly differently and a room glowing green doesn't throw the story off to any extent.


Doom_user said:
I consider all official, commercially released games to be canon. This is my understanding of the chronological order.

Knee Deep In The Dead
Shores Of Hell
Inferno
Thy Flesh Consumed
Hell On Earth
No Rest For The Living
Master Levels
TNT Evilution
Plutonia Experiment
Doom 64

I agree with this order. If one is to try to mash everything officially and commercially endorsed together into one continuity, that's my choice as well. I was just saying that as far as the original intention goes that only Doom 1 + Doom 2 make sense as a coherent and focused story arc.

Old Post 06-02-14 04:45 #
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This is all my opinion. The following belong in the main plot:

1) Knee-Deep in the Dead.
2) The Shores of Hell.
3) Inferno, last episode of non-Ultimate Doom.
4) Thy Flesh Consumed, last episode of Ultimate Doom. Fits in-between Inferno and Doom II because when it ends, you see the text mentions, "Next stop, Hell on Earth!", and after that you see the Doomguy grabbing his rabbit's severed head.
5) Hell on Earth.

Optional:
6) Plutonia Experiment. No explanation why I think it comes first other than I like it more than TNT: Evilution.
7) TNT: Evilution.
8) Doom 64. The Doomguy chooses to remain in hell to make sure no other monster awakes.

I never played Doom 3 so I don't know where would I place it at.

Old Post 06-02-14 05:56 #
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I honestly can't take Thy Flesh Consumed as being part of any serious canonicity, since it was so obviously made without regard to plot at all. I think the first three episodes of Doom actually had a decent story about them, even if it was largely relegated to the background, and Doom 2 was OK plot-wise, but after that it all just falls apart.

Old Post 06-02-14 06:37 #
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I view the first 3 episodes of Doom to be the first in the series of, say, a TV series that really made it big and popular. Doom II came about as a sequel that, while still cool, sorta lacked in some areas (not as good looking of maps) but excelled in others (maps still fun and new monsters/pickups). Episode 4 could very well be the end of the original company's time for said series with an attempt to go back to their original style.

TNT is the rebooted series (not remade, just brought back to life to continue the story) by another company that ended up getting the rights. While fun in its own right, doesn't compare to the original and has a lower budget for visuals (TNT map design, anyone?). Can be considered canon but not necessary to see for the story.

Plutonia is yet another reboot from a sister company after TNT that is more focused on action and nice visuals (better budget aka map design), but still falls short of the original. Yet again, not necessary but can still be considered canon.

Then there's Doom 64, rights bought by a bigger company than the last 2, putting more effort into this reboot with a good budget. Still holding true to the original series, possibly even at the same level of awesome, but also bringing something new and refreshing to the table. A respectful end to the franchise and can quite possibly be held canon over the previous 2 eras.

Doom 3 is the big budget movie reboot that gets mixed reviews.

PWADs are the fan-fictions that flood the internet.


And I probably don't even make sense.

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Old Post 06-02-14 06:57 #
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fraggle said:

If I had to guess from the stories alone I'd say that TNT comes first, then Plutonia. My reasoning would be that they show a change of focus, from continuing to research dimensional travel (TNT) to researching defensive technologies (Plutonia). It's kind of like they've finally learned the lesson.

Ah, so this is why it's all called "Doom". Because no matter what the humans do, they're doomed to bloodshed!

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Old Post 06-02-14 07:11 #
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Patrol1985
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printz said:
Ah, so this is why it's all called "Doom". Because no matter what the humans do, they're doomed to bloodshed!


It's not limited to the game though. That's actually what civilization has been like since the dawn of mankind :P

Old Post 06-02-14 09:14 #
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PRIMEVAL said:
And I probably don't even make sense.


Actually, that's probably the most sensible analogy about Doom I've ever heard.

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