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40oz

On the topic of "the two doom communities"

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I'm a ZDoomer through and through. No vanilla homosexual dares even talk to me lest he get a whoopin'!

Eh, just kidding. I had no idea there was a fault-line in the Doom Community separating the ZDoom crowd from the purists. Guess it's not surprising. This is the internet after all.

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My favourite level-set type is classic Doom gameplay without the retarded limits dragging ideas down. So pretty much anything but vanilla for me, although vanilla sets tend to run on anything anyway so its a moot point.

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Lenswot said:

[...]My grievance is with arbitrary, pointless limiting. It is not like painting in oil; there are not elite Doom collectors who are going to pay more for your work because your tools were harder to use, nor should there be.

I understand this, but if someone for whatever reason actually enjoys mapping with limits even more, power to them. I know that if preventing a visplane overflow only takes a minute and little effort, I'll do it. If it takes too much though, fuck it, I'll call the wad BOOM compat. No reason to limit my ideas for the sake of playing it in DOOM2.exe.

It frustrates me when people actually compromise an artistic goal/idea for the sake of nilla-compat. At that point, it's not just a preference, but a hinderance. I fucking love OS wads, but there are a lot of them out there. If your idea requires ZDoom, then use ZDoom, dammit.

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I, too, am largely apathetic, but I will remain staunchly a purist, regardless of what the community does. I mean, I'm absolutely not when it comes to what I'll play, I'll play anything, but when it comes down to actual mapping, I've never embraced the extra features that source ports provide. I mean, I love the freedom limit-removing provides, but other than that, I feel overwhelmed by too many choices, so I generally just try to keep things simple.

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I suppose you should do what you must to keep yourself sane, but I hope if you got to a point where you wanted to have a wall scroll right instead of left you would consider touching an extended feature, since you already knew what you were looking for.

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As someone who is very much just learning how to do all of this, I can concur with quite a few points in this thread. I like this community because I've gotten a ton of help no matter what feature I'm trying to use/tweak, and nobody has asked me what I bring to the table. I would like to return the favor someday after I've learned more about Decorate and scripting and whatnot, and take some questions off the veterans' hands.

That being said, I appreciate maps that are strictly Vanilla and maps/mods that are far more modern and rely on source port features. I must admit that I'm likely to try Vanilla maps with a mod that updates the monsters and weapons a little, because I'm honestly no longer a fan of, among other things, the Vanilla pistol and chaingun--they don't really have the "oomph" that they used to. I almost exclusively use Doom 64 sprites and sounds these days. Yeah, they're only 4 years fresher than what's in Vanilla Doom, but they're much less cartoonish. Plus I owned all the 90s console versions of the game before I ever had it for the PC.

If it's about mapping, well, I'm not too great at architecture and I don't know if I'll ever be. Mapping for GZDoom in UDMF is a real pleasure because I can try to make up for it in other ways. Yes, it's overwhelming to have all those extra options, and for the most part I'm going for gameplay that would work just as well in Vanilla--it just wouldn't look half as cool as what other people who are going for the same thing have done. I'd love to map for Vanilla or for other ports, but while I'm still practicing putting my architecture together well, I'm going to lean on GZDoom features a bit.

I can only hope that when I finally put out a level it's to at least average reviews. I can only hope that people recognize its strengths as readily as its weaknesses.

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Interesting thread.

Doom's a game and a sense of perspective must be kept. Whatever you do with it, and whoever you do it with, it should be fun - as it's probably happening in your spare time.

My thoughts on zdoom etc. - I love zdoom, it's a great port and the one I do all my dooming with when I do so these days. I love the limit-removing nature and the big, clever maps and features some mappers have been able to create because of ports like it.

To be honest, I very rarely like scripting, I don't like the alternate HUD, and I keep most of my compat settings oldschool. I do like the choices and menu depth zdoom gives you though.

If I load up Doom, it's because I want that simple Doom experience. I've got myriad options on Steam if I want to play a modern game. I can't be bothered to watch a ton of scripting before I start playing the map. It's not necessary. The great thing about Doom is you hit start, run and you're playing in 3 seconds. ACS and whatnot is too often poorly implemented and just frustrates. You can only forgive this if the underlying map and gameplay are very good, but often the two go hand in hand and they aren't. You can't polish a turd.

There's nothing wrong with playing around with stuff if that's all you wanna do. But in my opinion - and it's only my opinion - mappers who are keen to do it well should be focussed on creating great maps or mapsets and use the modern features very sparingly. That's what gets you remembered.

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pritch said:
If I load up Doom, it's because I want that simple Doom experience. I've got myriad options on Steam if I want to play a modern game. I can't be bothered to watch a ton of scripting before I start playing the map. It's not necessary. The great thing about Doom is you hit start, run and you're playing in 3 seconds. ACS and whatnot is too often poorly implemented and just frustrates. You can only forgive this if the underlying map and gameplay are very good, but often the two go hand in hand and they aren't. You can't polish a turd.


I agree with this. I'm not against putting new things in Doom if they are well thought out and they add to the overall gameplay experience. However, at the end of the day I ultimately just want to play Doom. I don't mind improved graphics and sound, and I don't mind 3D models. When it becomes a hacky attempt to make the game into COD with demons, then that is when I get turned off.

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Doom is not just a game, it's a tool. So I hope I'll be forgiven if I won't listen to "just gimme more Doom k?" people when I'll start making my slow-paced adventure game using Doom as a base.

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Da Werecat said:

Doom is not just a game, it's a tool. So I hope I'll be forgiven if I won't listen to "just gimme more Doom k?" people when I'll start making my slow-paced adventure game using Doom as a base.


No forgiveness necessary. Different people like doing different things with Doom, and that's perfectly fine. It's a matter of personal taste. While I prefer to just play Doom, I would never hold it against someone just because they wanted to add all kinds of extras to Doom and change the gameplay. It wouldn't be my cup of tea, but I'd still respect it.

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On 11/23/2014 at 6:54 AM, Doomkid said:

It frustrates me when people actually compromise an artistic goal/idea for the sake of nilla-compat. At that point, it's not just a preference, but a hinderance. I fucking love OS wads, but there are a lot of them out there. If your idea requires ZDoom, then use ZDoom, dammit.


I couldn't agree with this more. If you are going for a vanilla-styled wad, with barely using custom textures and keeping an oldschool map design, go for Boom. But if for example, if you want to have realistic bridges then map for UDMF/Doom in Hexen Format and just use actual 3D bridges, and not the awful fake ones. Some maps becomes an ass to play online because of these bridges. Same case with the horrible archways without slopes (which sometimes can be averted by using a good combination of middle textures, such as in D2RELOAD, but most people tend to make these archways with sectors and it looks like ass).
Given how Boom sourceports gets about 2 or 3 new megawads a year, and how ZDoom only gets a new megawad each decade, I really don't see the point of having this many people focused on producing Boom megawads, since their work is just gonna become one more number in the virtually infinite amount of already available similar content. 

Some people refuse to play ZDoom, even with all the compatflags enabled, going through an Olympics of mental gymnastics to explain why ZDoom is inferior because it crashes the compatibility with replays on every update and replays are absolutely important for the health of the community in this day and age when you can upload a video in five minutes, and just backport the installation in case the need to verify the validity of a replay is absolutely necessary, or maybe just stick with Zandronum which updates only each five years and compatibility never becomes an issue. Or in the worst cases, they just want to old sourceports because ZDoom can only emulate 99% of the experience of the original game and that clearly is not enough.


EDIT: Sorry for the ridiculous 4 year necropost. Somebody linked this on Facebook and I thought it was a recent discussion. FFS

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