People actually liked Plutonia?

I didn't select Dario's maps? That's funny, I didn't notice that.

Of all the maps you selected, only MAP20 is a Dario creation.

that'd be an interesting poll, we need another april agitation: dario vs milo smackdown edition.

(btw dario ftw)

AD_79 said:

There's no Stockholm Syndrome involved here, Plutonia is liked because it's well designed and a good challenge.

No it's not well designed, let me give you some specifics from the 3 maps I've played. In map 2 one big problem that always stumped me was where to go, there would always come a point where there was nothing left for me to do, or so I thought, after a few tries I eventually figured out that those big skull textures that I thought were decorations were actually switches required for progression. Another thing I dislike about map 2 is that invisible bridge across the canyon, I was quickly able to figure out how to raise the markers to show where the bridge was, but to me the whole setup there was just a stupid gimmick to show off an invisible bridge, which is executed in a more interesting way in the very next map, why show off a gimmick in a lame way here. Then there's map 3 the most horrible map in Plutonia of the 3 I've played, how is it that you can say those that Plutonia has good design when this map is connected together by those stupidly cramped curved corridors everywhere, nothing interisting happen in them & I'm constantly getting snagged on the walls as I try the oh so difficult task of...walking. Then map 3 has the most annoying room in Plutonia that I've seen so far & again I've only been 3 maps in. It's the room with the invisible bridge with the torches on both sides, this is the room that no matter how I play it, fast, slow, whatever I die & die & die & die & Die & Die & Die.

Jaws In Space said:

No it's not well designed, let me give you some specifics from the 3 maps I've played.

Is that a joke?

It's a fact that the first 3 plutonia maps suck and you're supposed to put the best maps at the begining, since there's no difficulty progression each time you progress anyways.

Jaws In Space said:

how is it that you can say those that Plutonia has good design when this map is connected together by those stupidly cramped curved corridors everywhere, nothing interisting happen in them & I'm constantly getting snagged on the walls as I try the oh so difficult task of...walking.

But wait, I thought Doom was better when it challenged the system and didn't stick to "checklist" mapping. I thought narrow corridors were a good thing that cowardly mappers refuse to put in their good maps because they need them all to be sterile crap.

Jaws In Space said:

It's the room with the invisible bridge with the torches on both sides, this is the room that no matter how I play it, fast, slow, whatever I die & die & die & die & Die & Die & Die.

Sounds like you just need to get good (tm)

@Jaws In Space : Have you even playtested your own mappack? It's harder than plutonia as far as I can tell.

joe-ilya said:

@Jaws In Space : Have you even playtested your own mappack? It's harder than plutonia as far as I can tell.

I think usually whoever made their own map and play tests it will have an easier time playing then someone else. That's the case for my levels anyway.

Jaws In Space said:

It boggles my mind that people could find Plutonia fun, actually... I think I know why, nobody really likes Plutonia, but if they say they do they are just suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Different people like different things, it's really not that hard to understand.

I think slaughter maps are awful, but i don't claim that people who like them are Klingons or lunatics. I can see they just like the play style.

Don't go too far out of your way to say that nobody enjoys it just because you don't.

Plutonia, too brown. Always the brown. Such little contrast sometimes. Oh look there is green and brown. I guess the sky counts as contrast though. They were good at making maps , just not great at texturing them. TNT was overall a little bit better.

There still needs to be a best Final Doom map poll just like there was one for Doom 1 and Doom 2.

Avoozl said:

There still needs to be a best Final Doom map poll just like there was one for Doom 1 and Doom 2.

*Plutonia map gets chosen*

*Jaws in Space gets Crohn syndrome*

TheCupboard said:

Plutonia, too brown. Always the brown. Such little contrast sometimes. Oh look there is green and brown. I guess the sky counts as contrast though. They were good at making maps , just not great at texturing them.

They were not bad at texturing. The Plutonia visual theme is stylish in my view (although I despise it due to mind association with Plutonia-esque frustrating gameplay, hehe). They chose the way of stylistic unification over variation.

I'm not really a big fan of its (perceived?) over-reliance on Chaingunners and Revenants, personally, but when I basically forced myself to go through the whole thing, I rather enjoyed it. It pulls some dirty tricks here and there, admittedly (I recall a point in the first 10 maps where I killed a bunch of Chaingunner snipers placed high up around a courtyard, before going into an adjoining room - and then, when a strong monster chased me out of that room, I headed out to find more Chaingunner snipers had teleported back in to take their fallen brethren's place), but I liked its relatively small levels with relatively few monsters (it just knows how to make that small number of monsters inflict the largest amount of damage possible).

Avoozl said:

There still needs to be a best Final Doom map poll just like there was one for Doom 1 and Doom 2.

I bet it'd go to that Plutonia map with the brown texture and the symmetrical layout and the chaingunners and revenant. Forgot which slot it is, but you know which one I'm talking about, with the circular courtyard and all.

Shadow Hog said:

I recall a point in the first 10 maps where I killed a bunch of Chaingunner snipers placed high up around a courtyard, before going into an adjoining room - and then, when a strong monster chased me out of that room, I headed out to find more Chaingunner snipers had teleported back in to take their fallen brethren's place.

Was it MAP05, "Ghost Town"? (How ironic.)

Who doesn't like Chaingunner Challenge - The Chaingunning?

Sorry, Plutonia is just too good. But then again, Revenants don't cripple my style. Unlike the rest of you pansies.

Gez said:

I bet it'd go to that Plutonia map with the brown texture and the symmetrical layout and the chaingunners and revenant. Forgot which slot it is, but you know which one I'm talking about, with the circular courtyard and all.

Not one clue.

I will say that I do prefer Plutonia over Doom II.

Piper Maru said:

I will say that I do prefer Plutonia over Doom II.

Good man

Plutonia is cool. It helped forge another path for Doom gameplay, and created a style of its own that's often imitated but rarely equaled or understood.

Doom 2 is still the best of all the IWADs though. (-:

LittleInferno said:

Was it MAP05, "Ghost Town"? (How ironic.)

Yeah, that's the one. I liked that map quite a bit, I just didn't like that particular trap.

Nothing really beautiful to look at after multiple runs, but inventive, inspirational and interesting looks throughout. The three I's to be more precise.

Since there are people who actually like genital piercing, neolib reforms and even bug chasing ("poz pigs"), liking Plutonia sounds pretty tame in comparison :)

I used to think I liked Plutonia, but that was because I never really tried playing it outside of casual infinite-respawn coop. Inspired by this thread I gave Plutonia another shot in singleplayer and remembered why I quit each time. Maps 2 and 3 do me in with their incredibly bullshit traps and ambushes which you have precisely zero chance to survive unless you know exactly what's coming (map3 particuarly loves dropping archviles on you in the most unfair ways). So apparently I ragequit at map03 each time I try to give Plutonia a go. Yeah, definitely not my style of gameplay.

It looks good at least.

Plutonia's alright. it's too brown and ugly and the gameplay is too consistently dickish for me (i don't mind challenge but the same kinds of challenge over and over can get real boring), but there's also lot of cool ideas there. def seems a lot more like designers riffing off each other than something like TNT.

I always enjoyed the few maps that were selected for the Playstation edition. A few years ago, I tried playing through the PC original and couldn't get through it. Just didn't do it for me.

Plut is great. It hits a particular brand of "no holds barred, expert-doomers-only" gameplay right on the nose -- chaotic without slaughtery. I like.

Its one real weakness is that the first three maps are IMO indeed not a very good introduction to the set. Congo and Well of Souls are good but too in-your-face for MAP01/MAP02 slots, and Aztec is the least good map in the set (and complete balls in co-op).

I strongly suggest for anyone who's had trouble getting into Plut to start again from Caged (MAP04) -- that's when the wad really begins, IMO.