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Bloodite Krypto
Mini-Member

Posts: 75
Registered: 02-09

It's certainly no surprise to feel such boiling envy when viewing Oku's ability, having spoken to him myself he spents an arduous amount of time recording demos - an average of 2-4 hours no matter the length. For the most part it seems he's simply very aware of his surrounding environment, watch his Sunder 07 and 10 demos and you'll notice he comes very close to the brink of death. Analyse SOD's "Path to Hell' closely and in all earnest it's quite easy to avoid taking damage considering the amount of space provided, your never forced into a claustrophobic area with large amounts of projectile based enemies.

Although these allegations of cheating are certainly hilarious.

03-27-10 22:38 #

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Phml
Senior Member

Posts: 1817
Registered: 06-09

i have to say i also wtf'd over that video.

Heh, funny to see that come from you, because in my previous reply I was almost about to say "there's some (other) demos that sometimes makes me wonder if it's really legit, but I realise some people are just that skilled" - and some of your UV speeds was what came to mind and prompted me to almost say that.

I think there's a lot of speedrunners who are used to run "classic" levels, and only a few who like slaughtermaps ; and because of that many doomgods who are awesome in normal dooming haven't reached the same perfection level against hordes yet, and might be surprised to see what other people can do.

As for vdgg's comparison, it doesn't sound very fair to me. No Chance is an insanely hard map, while SOD map20 is relatively easy. Yeah, both have high monster counts, but other than that there's not many similarities. As Krypto mentions, plenty of open space and while it's still impressive to avoid getting hit for so long while killing stuff, it definitely looks possible.

Going to go with "not guilty" here ; hopefully Okuplok sees all of this as a backhanded compliment - "you're so good you must be cheating". :)

03-27-10 23:15 #

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vdgg
Moderator

Posts: 791
Registered: 08-07

Krypto: allegations of cheating? Vincent, dew and me are expressing doubts mixed with amazement. What's wrong with that? 2-4 hours? Of course, I'm from an inferior league, but my last Scythe2 Max took me about 30 hours.

Phml: you may be right, I'm really not into these maps and the comparison is a bit unfair.

03-27-10 23:26 #

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gggmork
Banned

Posts: 1790
Registered: 06-07

I don't use a mouse, so some of my movement, like normal turning and 180 turns look different. That nochance demo was before I could 2-bfg-shot kill cybers very well. Nochance had modular parts so a route could be perfected with saves before recording the final demo which then comes down to luck/many attempts.
Probably the best players I know of are timeofdeath,okuplok,skogs,vile,belial, and others I might be forgetting but hard to tell when some don't share many demos anymore. Some are skilled in a unique way, like lost heretic is really good at first demo attempts, dew does weird speed tricks, tod does insane rocket jumping.
Skepticist and lost heretic own me at first demo attempts, and on hr2 32, my only chance of beating TOD or okuplok was to find a better route probably. Being able to strafe and turn at the same time is probably quite useful, heh.
But I highly doubt TOD cheats and he's as good as okuplok probably so making legit demos like that is likely possible and I doubt okuplok cheats. For all anyone other than me knows, I might be cheating (unless there's some technical/software ability to tell for sure). I don't by the way (but I might be lying so that statement's useless).

03-28-10 00:26 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 1552
Registered: 05-08

i had a bit of a rant prepared, but okuplok removed all of his youtube videos, so i'm not sure what to say anymore. i can only assume it's a response to this thread, a strange one if you ask me. there's 3 guys playing x-files here, and at least the same amount defending, it's not the inquisition tribunal. i don't know if i should feel guilty or whatever...

03-28-10 02:16 #

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Super Jamie
Forum Staple

Posts: 2664
Registered: 03-08

As with all amazingly skilled Doom videos, I considered briefly whether these were TAS or not, but there were none of the telltale signs of them being as such so I dismissed it pretty fast.

Even so, I don't see this thread as accusation, just discussion. I hope Oku hasn't removed the videos cos of this, that's a sad loss for all Doomers.

03-28-10 02:35 #

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VinceDSS
Senior Member

Posts: 1281
Registered: 11-02

Removing all the vids is a bit strange indeed. Feels a bit like taking the evidence away.

03-28-10 05:36 #

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tatsurd-cacocaco
Member

Posts: 454
Registered: 07-08

I was always impressed and inspired by his excellent play, and I had never doubted his demos. However, he removed all videos and he is keeping silent. After such his dubious deed, I can't help doubting them.

For a doomer, I have a big youtube's channel. Also, some players, including okuplok, have a bit big youtube's channels. I'm sure that they can't remove them easily.

Last edited by tatsurd-cacocaco on 03-28-10 at 06:32

03-28-10 06:25 #

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The Green Herring
Community Chest 4 Leader

Posts: 916
Registered: 05-07

tatsurd-cacocaco said:
I was always impressed and inspired by his excellent play, and I had never doubted his demos. However, he removed all videos and he is keeping silent. After such his dubious deed, I can't help doubting them.

For a doomer, I have a big youtube's channel. Also, some players, including okuplok, have a bit big youtube's channels. I'm sure that they can't remove them easily.

Yet Okuplok seems to have closed his own account. :( Shame, really. As you suggested, by dumping all of his videos, he's cast more suspicion upon himself than he would have if he left them alone.

I have a YouTube channel, but currently, it only consists of some Duke Nukem 3D user map speedruns I did way back in 2007. At some point, I'd like to start posting my Doom demos there, but first, I need to get myself a good capture program.

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03-28-10 06:35 #

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Phml
Senior Member

Posts: 1817
Registered: 06-09

Removing videos could be seen as hiding the evidence just as much as it could be him being disheartened at people suspecting he cheats.

I still don't see the runs themselves as evidence. As gggmork pointed out, TimeOfDeath records runs at the same skill level shown in Okuplok's demos, and he records some of these runs in ZDoom 2.2, and there isn't TAS utilities for that engine. So there should be no doubt playing at this skill level is humanly possible.

And, while we're speaking about TOD, he also did sort of the same thing as Oku did now when he replaced all of his levels in tom19 with some blank rocketjumping map without saying anything at first. I suppose when you're that good at the game you probably care a lot about it, and critics can get to you.

I'm not saying I know *for sure*, but I'm saying given the evidence, or lack there of in my eyes, I still don't believe there's enough to say Okuplok is cheating.

03-28-10 12:20 #

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kimo_xvirus
Junior Member

Posts: 208
Registered: 03-08

Not taking damage in the vast space doesn't seem that impossible to me, bearing in mind there's only imps and hell knights there in the middle open space behind your back who fire slow projectiles.
People have different talents, when other people who see you do things that they can't perceive exactly how you did it or thought about it, they could think wrong.
Some people can't get how others do things better
Same with you can do things you think is easy, others think it's very hard.
So we can't say someone cheated just because he's done something better that wasn't done before

I was discussing the matter with Okuplok, I tried telling him to discuss with people about his demo and I was talking to him about some of the suspicious spots, like the weird av bfg stacking and some of the dodging with his back.

Of his sayings
"i will admit it does look like tas >_>. cos i didnt get hit. sucks"
"i put hard work into my demos for people to enjoy, i hate being accused for cheating it would be easier for everyone if i closed the account"

also
"Kimo Xvirus: Did you check the newest posts?
Okuplok: yup, they think cos i deleted the videos im hiding something
which im not
Kimo Xvirus: Why did you delete them?
You deprived youtube people from your awesome play
Okuplok: because i got accused of cheating
so it would be better if just close the account and end the arguement

At first he told me he might delete that video cause people would see Vince's comment there and believe, then by the end of the day he said he'll close his account and take a break for doom or just move on from doom
Me and Krypto tried to pursuade him but he didn't listen. He said time to move on. im going now, bye and left

He shouldn't have let this get to him :( I don't know if he's coming back or not, time will tell
He had sent me the demo of that map before, but last I asked him if I could post it, he refused

03-28-10 13:10 #

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gggmork
Banned

Posts: 1790
Registered: 06-07

Seems like an overreaction to a couple internet posts that seemed harmlessly inquisitive. It might help to have thicker skin against opinions/reviews/suspicions/etc of other people. Since recorders generally strive to play their best, TAS suspicion is actually quite a complement/achievement and 'leaving forever' is often a human tactic to go out with a bang of drama to gain attention, but we're all human so such emotional based behavior is understandable. Do whatever you want, but stubbornly leaving forever for the principle of a minor thing seems irrational.
I wouldn't even care much if someone else used tas; that's their decision and doesn't make the game less challenging/fun for me.

03-28-10 19:36 #

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HackNeyed
Member

Posts: 380
Registered: 08-04

Silly dramatics I loved Okuplok's channel and I was working my way through the awesome vids. ugh. I hope he comes back. :(

Years ago I was playing Call of Duty 2 and this guy was loudly RUNNING up behind me through a noisy BUSH so spun around and popped him and for nearly half the round he called me a cheater even though I was in the middle of the ranking board! I told him not to make so much noise and he might live longer and then ignored him.

Some people cheat and others don't and if you're innocent then just defend yourself or ignore it and keep doing what you love and others enjoy.

03-28-10 20:38 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 1552
Registered: 05-08

i don't get that okuplok-tod comparison. why making this conversation about anyone else? tod's style and modus operandi is completely different anyways and his most skilled (imo) demos are his zdaemon rocket jumping recordings where there's no tools. him overwriting his maps on idgames is a mapping thing, absolutely no correlation with cheat accusations. this is just watering down this discussion.

also the 'silent' departure bothers me. it just seems too much like a play on the public emotions and laying a guilt trip on the acusers.

03-29-10 01:47 #

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Phml
Senior Member

Posts: 1817
Registered: 06-09

Deleted, people are what they are and adding to the shitstorm won't change anything. Good job driving a great runner away from the community, guys.

Last edited by Phml on 03-29-10 at 03:16

03-29-10 03:10 #

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VinceDSS
Senior Member

Posts: 1281
Registered: 11-02

Leaving a game you love on such a thing is utterly silly. Unless you have something to regret or conceal.

His reaction is very ambiguous and leaves place to a lot of contradicting interpretations.

03-29-10 05:33 #

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Gusta
Member

Posts: 640
Registered: 02-04

After reading the whole discussion I have to agree, the way Okuplok left is just the play on people�s feelings, which disappoints me :-/
When he play so good and flawless that makes people think his demos use TAS, that should be a honor for him! Damn, that�s one of my dreams that somebody will ever consider my whatever demo as cheated!!! :-) He always could come and say: "Hey, people, none of my runs is TAS!" ... I would have no problem with that. But he rather removed all his videos and disappeared, this reaction is stupid and somehow childish and made him kind of untrustable. I really liked his runs so I am quite disappointed by this thing now.
Particularly, I watched that famous sd20 not-taking-a-single-hit flawless maxrun and ... well ... even with godlike doom tallent you cannot pretend everything that happens outside your view angle, but it seemed that Okuplok always perfectly knew the whole situation around him without checking it, hesitating during the play or whatever. That makes that run unbelievable.

03-29-10 08:05 #

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Joshy
Member

Posts: 532
Registered: 07-08

It's rather a pity. I admire contributions of most speedrunners, and I liked watching his demos, they were quite daring and he managed to do Map33 of SoD rather nicely with stategies that slightly deviated from my expectations (but I guess that's normal for most demos, heh) but you could tell he did put a lot of time into it.

Just to clear the air, I'm rather confused with the demo naming between Sd and Sod as Sd can be either sunder or speed of doom, so, I'm assuming apparently I've missed his demo of not being hit once on Map20's Path to Hell? That's a let down. :-(

Besides, TAS or not, there is no shame in making a contribution. I rather enjoy watching TAS demos as well, it is still 'human' in its own right and it gives you ideas of how further optimised a speedrun can be. I think I might be stating the obvious but just my two cents.

03-30-10 02:36 #

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Revved
Member

Posts: 303
Registered: 09-08

Dimensions of Time
UV Max
Map 19 in 1:50

Attachment: dt19-150.zip
This has been downloaded 11 time(s).

03-31-10 01:46 #

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vdgg
Moderator

Posts: 791
Registered: 08-07

Nothing new, just 3 UV Max demos for Obituary which are about 30% faster than my demos recorded last year.
MAP01 in 3:40, MAP04 in 5:32 and MAP09 in 5:16

Attachment: obticmax.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

03-31-10 16:26 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

DoomHero85 said:
-complevel 9 Enjoy!

Use 2 (DOOM II) or 3 (The ultimate DOOM) for vanilla or limit removing levels like Scythe and Scythe 2. Use 9 for "Boom compatible" WADs.

04-01-10 23:08 #

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TimeOfDeath
Forum Regular

Posts: 1235
Registered: 06-06

Sorry for bumping this discussion, but I moved away and my stuff was in boxes, etc.

I agree with Gusta in that I wish people thought I cheated. Then I could have fun and make a proof video with a webcam or digital camera showing me playing live and recording a demo, or just do a zdoom demo or something. If it were me, I'd do whatever I could to prove myself because I care a lot about Doom and my reputation as a player. Sure, everyone's different, and I'm not saying I think Okuplok cheated. He just left, so I don't know what to think.

Edit: I think it could also help to learn more about Okuplok's background/history in Doom.

Last edited by TimeOfDeath on 04-02-10 at 16:04

04-02-10 15:51 #

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VinceDSS
Senior Member

Posts: 1281
Registered: 11-02

his reaction about our questions was not straightforward (as he could have done what you said and defend himself).

That leads me to think he was not honest with his demos ...

Thats kinda like driving under the influence, if you refuse to take the test, there is a very strong possibility that you are guilty. The cops take it as such.

04-02-10 17:08 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 1552
Registered: 05-08

TimeOfDeath said:
I agree with Gusta in that I wish people thought I cheated.

i've been saying that for YEARS. you cheated your rocket jumping demos with your BIONIC HANDS. :) you're right that a similarly skilled zdoom demo would've proven us wrong easily.

04-02-10 17:49 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

vdgg said:
Four UV Max demos for One Bloody Night by Erik Alm.

Map05 has a short REJECT lump. I vaguely remember this being talked about when the WAD was fresh and it probably explains why there were no demos for the level till now. The short lump is all zeros, so to get the demo to run with Doom2 all one needs to do is run ZenNode with -rz on Map05.

The Green Herring said:
DIESCUM.WAD with a rebuilt REJECT; required for playback

In these cases I recommend a REJECT with all zeros. See also this post for short non-zero REJECTs. The advantage of these methods is that PrBoom+ users don't need the fix (as the engine does it for them) and that if someone inadvertently and independently records with Prboom+, our patched level will be the same as what Prboom+ generates on the fly.

04-03-10 00:11 #

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Andy Olivera
Member

Posts: 278
Registered: 12-02

myk said:
In these cases I recommend a REJECT with all zeros. See also this post for short non-zero REJECTs. The advantage of these methods is that PrBoom+ users don't need the fix (as the engine does it for them) and that if someone inadvertently and independently records with Prboom+, our patched level will be the same as what Prboom+ generates on the fly. [/B]

I think PRBoom pads the Reject with zeroes, rather than zeroing the whole thing. This would mean that, unless the WADs existing Reject Map is all zeroes, a fixed WAD will still be necessary.

04-03-10 07:15 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

Posts: 1781
Registered: 01-10

Here's a UV-max Tyson of dwspd001.wad map 08 in 1:25
Was really hard to do.

EDIT: btw, -clvl 9

Attachment: ds00108t.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

Last edited by General Rainbow Bacon on 04-03-10 at 15:49

04-03-10 15:37 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

Posts: 1781
Registered: 01-10

Here's a demo of how to stick it to an archvile the REAL man's way.
sbspd007.wad map 03 -clvl 9

Attachment: ss00703t.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

04-03-10 19:58 #

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Coldfusio
Member

Posts: 431
Registered: 09-02

DoomHero85 said:
Here's a demo of how to stick it to an archvile the REAL man's way.
sbspd007.wad map 03 -clvl 9

Warning: Time 3:27
With plain health you always survive an archvile attack.

Btw: I tried it myself, I'm no speedrunner but I think chaingunners are hell in pacific mode. I noticed that you can position the sargeants so that you can pass by and activate the chaingunners. But I gave up after 10 runs. No 20 runs, speedrunning is fun I know that but so frustrating.

Last edited by Coldfusio on 04-03-10 at 21:05

04-03-10 20:28 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

Posts: 1781
Registered: 01-10

yeah, it took a while without berserk. I just though punching an AV to death is fun.

EDIT: Yeah, those chaingunners gave me the most trouble in the first demo. No lie, I got it on my 4th run recording, but after about 35 tries not recording. And I did try it your way by bypassing the sargeants and activating the chaingunners, but after a couple of tries that way it was clear that wouldn't work.

Last edited by General Rainbow Bacon on 04-03-10 at 21:29

04-03-10 20:32 #

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