Compet-N: incoming and discussion, part 1 [please post in part 2 instead]

I opened this ACE archive using WinRAR.

Andy Johnsen said:

Nice to see theres still people submitting demos to this thread, altho I cant say I'm able to enjoy Kimo's recordbeaters since they might as well be cheated as far as I'm conserned. When a player openly admits to cheating, there should be alot of skeptics involved when short "optimized" runs occour down the road, regardless. Not great...

How would admitting to cheating make one more suspicious to cheating?
Is it because I knew how to make the demos not look suspicious? At the time I also made double checks to be 'sure' no one would suspect them.


I'll defend myself.
I was only 15 at in 2009/07, this could be a reason for the rather strange behavior. I only know one doom speedrunner who's younger than me and that's Archy.
Some of the below stuff were notes I wrote shortly after I admitted cheating. Good thing they're recorded because I realised now I don't remember some of it as clearly.

I was fighting with myself like this "It's ok as it is, people will be dissapointed if I admit cheating, I could've made these times I'm sure, but I just cheated at the end. Then I say to myself: Why cheat when I mess up at the end and not the middle or beginning? Of course I can't change the run from the middle, it would desync. beginning is too advantageous to start from a saved good run that it's a joke. I just only changed the end parts because they dissapointed me when I had a good run upto that point and I screw it up :/ contrary to other runs where I did the end fine, I cheated once, repeated it a few times, and was tempted to do it a few times but didn't do, then I saw that I always hated it so I decided I'm not going to cheat again but still leave the 6 runs I cheated. But still it kept me concerned most of the time, after nearly a year and after discussing it with a few people irl I concluded as myself that the only thing that would make me feel rested is to admit cheating.
I also said: Why did I cheat if I could make it? Many people of that skill could say he can make it. After all the only one true point of demos is that the player once played like how you see, doesn't matter skill or luck. My cheated demos aren't like this, I always know inside when I watched them they weren't played like this. I needed to admit I cheated which was because I just wanted the records which was wrong and naive.
Since I still wanted that ep3 record especially, I played it at the time I decided that I will admit, and decided to play less per day for the nerves and that it's a fact that I always get more luck at for a particular run in the first 2 hours of trying or so of the day.
It took 8 hours over 3 days vs 35-40 hours over 4 days last time for the best time of 3:53.

Here's some evidences of skill
I did this run of Heretic in the 2nd of January, imo my best movement demo yet, it beats my 0:26 which I did in 2010, you could be not familiar with the game, but the straferunning is just like doom. Demo Youtube
I also have videos of myself speedrunning Wolf3D for SDA with camera
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?006cno7c431khx3 E1L1 Successful run at 3:55
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?c9md4l73cwggm7b E3L9 Successful run at 9:50
E5L1 5 videos getting 0:20, 1 2 3 4 5 the run that I'd use in SDA had the same time but 100 health and wasn't recorded on camera sadly
And I played online several times.

Coincidentally I ran Map05 Pacifist 3 days ago

pa05-025.zip

Not trying to be an asshole Kimo, theres worse sins in this world by a little notch or two.

Unfortunately I cant get myselfe to enjoy your runs because of this, but hey...as long as your having fun with the game, who cares?

SAV88 said:

Well, already in 2003 there were some Doom Gods strong enough to break the 5:00 mark in theory, but at that time they didn't know many of the modern optimization methods (which are needed for getting such low times).

One should exercize great caution in posting statements like this.

Another poster already established that the maxkill attempt in question did not, in actual fact, contain any techniques unknown to the speedrunning community 10 years ago.

If you really do maintain that this run contains new tech that wasn't known a decade back, please do enlighten me. Inactive as I may be, my interest in doom gameplay remains.

I have not followed this thread regularly at all, but the picture I'm getting is that we have 2 players of notable talent contributing actively -- good old stx-Vile and this new prospect who calls himself Paska. Things were better for speedrunning 10 years ago. Firstly, we had Compet-N, which motivated players much more than a solitary Doomworld thread. I might myself feel more inclined to upload the records I have lying around if there were more left of Compet-N's magnificent splendor than this thread. Secondly, even if we restrict ourselves just to capable maxkillers, stx-Vile, Adam Hegyi, Henning Skogstø, myself, Anders Johnsen, and Vincent Catalaa were all active back then, and definitely capable of improving upon nearly any maxkill of this length.

No max run of 5 minutes is ever optimal, and this particular run still has a bit of slack in it. Usually, in my experience, the only way a run of this type ever gets squeezed down to a time where it's really bitchy to beat (while still not being optimal, as that is simply not possible in runs of this length) is after a long and bitter back-and-forth battle over the record, or after someone of exceptional talent spends an exceptional amount of time on it (as in the case of PL32).

So I'd just like to comment that any insinuation that the current bunch of active players is somehow superior to the ones that battled for points on Compet-N, unless backed by heavy proof, runs the risk of really rubbing people the wrong way.

ocelot said:

So I'd just like to comment that any insinuation that the current bunch of active players is somehow superior to the ones that battled for points on Compet-N, unless backed by heavy proof, runs the risk of really rubbing people the wrong way.

Umm what? The fact is that the majority of current records on Compet-N wads are from the 2001 to 2003 era, so I really don't think that was meant by anything that was said. I think great caution should be exercised when well-respected players return only to post condescending remarks towards the modern community. Really runs the risk of rubbing people the wrong way, ya know?

ocelot

Despite how you may feel about the Compet-N doomworld thread: it's the players who post new records in this thread that keep Compet-N-style speedrunning alive, along with Andy who updates the doomedsda site with all the new demos. All of the records are there for everybody to see, to watch, to compete against. The original Compet-N might be dead, but all the hard work and achievements are still there and won't be forgotten. If someone searches for "Doom world records" and the information they find isn't even accurate, who's fault is that? It's our duty to share our records and maintain a complete database of awesomeness for the best game evar. Could you please post your records? :)

</epic movie speech>

ocelot said:

So I'd just like to comment that any insinuation that the current bunch of active players is somehow superior to the ones that battled for points on Compet-N, unless backed by heavy proof, runs the risk of really rubbing people the wrong way.

I didn't mean that either generation of world-class doomers is "inferior" or "superior" to the whole other generation. There is no point in "chronocentrism".

I just wanted to say that Doom speedrunning science is continuing its evolution, and new players are periodically inventing and/or utilizing new tactical approaches which weren't well known and/or well practised back then.

10 years ago many levels with "traditional" gameplay (in Doom and Doom2) were brought to a similar or greater level of optimization to Paska's AV29FAIL.LMP, but "heavier" levels (such as slaughtermaps) were played in a less polished way, without delving too much into subtleties of timehunt. For example, Radek's AV29 record was 9:15. Many of Vile's times on such maps got big improvements by modern players. Though with enough effort Vile can certainly take these records back, judging by his current skill and knowledge (like he did on Scythe MAP23).

I second what ToD said:

Could you please post your records? :)

Also, I would like to see Anders do a max for AV MAP29. He is right that he can beat Paska's time, though it can take him more than just a few hours.

Holy *&%$#@& (what ever that means), I come here to submit a C-N entry, I see Anders Johnsen has returned, I learn that kimo_xvirus once cheated (don't worry, I know your later runs are genuine, and hey, what happened to your youtube account? It's been like a year since you've updated it) and just wow. All that's a lot to take in.

But anyways, Mr. Johnsen, I would just like to say that it's an honer running into you on this forum, as I'm one of your fans. Your demos are very impressive and U4M2-123 is just fantastic. Your levels are also some of the best I've played, yesterday I was playing Crimson Tide from Alien Vendetta over an over again. That's one of my favorite "short" maps.

What's funny is before I came to see all these surprises, I surprised my self with another C-N entry which I thought I wouldn't do again, and now I'm even more surprised as I talked about you (Anders Johnsen) in my txt file before I even came here.

Well let's get to the real stuff:
Hell Revealed - Level Six - The Round Crossroads - UV-MAX - 3:50

COMPET-N record was was 3:54 by Anders Johnsen (holy catfish, yet another surprise)

Edit:
@kimo_xvirus, n4m7-gg.LMP has to be one of the funniest things I've seen, mind if I post it on YouTube? I'll give you full credit just as I did Ryback on this video.

hr06-350.zip

ocelot said:

I might myself feel more inclined to upload the records I have lying around if there were more left of Compet-N's magnificent splendor than this thread.

Quite an odd thing to say considering the last few times proposals for a Compet-N revival popped up most active players said it should be left alone as a historic archive as this forum works fine for day to day recording purposes.

Dreaming of past glory days won't bring them back. Sorry we're not living up to your expectations.

Ocelot miss compet-n, I can see where thats comming from. Without putting words in his mouth tho, I dare to bet he's happy theres still a place with some activity left, this forum is way better than nothing at all - but lets face it, losing Compet-N and Adam Hegyi was a big blow to alot of players, and there still a hole left from that. I dont think he's belitteling the players who chose to hang here, merely stating the obvious; thers not the same kind of activity now as there were back in the haydays of CN. Perhaps a natural thing this many years down the road?

I'm very pleased to see that theres still runs being done, and because its impossible to be unbiased, I'm extra happy to see my old runs beaten - and records broken over Alien Vendetta.

I too took some offense in what SAV88 was stating, as its simply not true. The statement about av29fail not being doable in 2003 is just redicolous for us who were around then and saw players do the same kinda things. At a certain skill-level its simply a question of patience before one get these times over a given map.

Sure, theres always been an evolution timewise over some maps - plutonia map32 is a good example, but what you have there is the same top level player refining it over and over again, more so than the gameplay of doomplayers being elevated. When thats said, I'm sure stx improved since 2003.

Its a false fact to say that there were no slaughtermaps brought to the level of av29fail in 2003. Plutonia map32 had a similary good time at the point in time, so did HR22 and 32 and AV map32. Theres nothing new with good times over slaughter maps - and theres certainly a whole bunch of records from those days much more optimized than this. Pecas run for av29 was a rather slow and sloppy playthrough, I'm sure he would agree, if pushed he was capable of far faster times than that, but that is how he approached the AV demopack.

So yes, stating this:

"Well, already in 2003 there were some Doom Gods strong enough to break the 5:00 mark in theory, but at that time they didn't know many of the modern optimization methods (which are needed for getting such low times)."

...is simply bollocks, and I can understand why Ocelot takes insult, as its pretty much belitteling every "hard working gamer" of that area. We're not talking about the nintees. I would like you to point out specific optimization methods used in av29fail that can not be spotted in demos from several years ago. I cant see it, and I've seen a few runs through the years. This is not to take anything away from Paskal - this guy would be right up there with the best players of any era, and I'm thrilled to see him beat old records.

I think Ocelots post is a natural response from someone bulked as an improbable candidate to do runs of the caliber we're discussing. Instead of getting cought up in his disappointment with having no Compet-N around, try to read the arguments hes presenting.

Archy: congratulations on beating Crossroads, I cant belive that one was still standing after all these years, thats a fun map : ) I'll check out the recording, and thank you for the kind words, I'm happy to hear your enjoying AV05 - you should go for the max record there, still room for improvement, altho its a solid one.

I see no point in writing long, cumbersome counterarguments. I'll just briefly comment the following sentence.

Andy Johnsen said:

Its a false fact to say that there were no slaughtermaps brought to the level of av29fail in 2003. Plutonia map32 had a similary good time at the point in time, so did HR22 and 32 and AV map32.

I explored HR22 with savegames a few times, and I can say that if someone would play it at the same general level of aggression and weapon usage efficiency as Paska played in his AV29FAIL, the time would be 5:XX or 4:XX instead of 8:03. That's what the best modern players (or Vile at his current skill) can get.

I'm not asking for a long, cumbersome argument, I'm merely looking for the facts to back up said statement; not too much to ask for given the boldness of it.

Hr22 is improvable for sure. Stx coulda beaten it then and he can beat it now. So could / can I, Henning SKogstø or any other top level player with interest and enthusiasem for it. Theres no magical wall stopping the former recordholder at the time from improving it further, but lack of interest and competition probably did it.

What other modern players besides stx (who is hardly a modern player per say) and Paskal are you talking about btw?

Altho his map29 fail attempt is good, it suffers somewhat half way through from less polished weapon usage and strategy. Possible suggestions for improvement would be:

- Ignore one or both pain elements in the hallway with the rocket ammo, and kill them with a lucky BFG blast together with the spawning archviles.
- Ignore revenant and cacos after picking up sphere and releasing cyber - utilize cyber as a killing machine and kill him after picking up bluekey
- Use rockets to kill hanging imps instead of plasma
- One could experiment with leaving the blue-armour chaingunner mountain for infights until right before the exit, that might kill off all the mancubus and save yet another BFG shot.

One bfg shot can also be saved in the revenant cave. Its also possible to kill everyone at the SSG with one blast, saving time that is now spent SSG'ing the hellknight. One might consider picking up the berserker pack in the start in order to save rockets on the skulls in the narrow river post yellowkey. Imps in the mouth-cave can be killed with one less SSG blast.

IDDQD playthrough suggest at least 4:30 as within reach with a few improvements over the route. How long would it take me to get below 5 minutes? More hours today than it would in 2003, thats for sure, but I'd stand a better chanse at doing that than improving my own AV06 maxkill.

I noticed the same weaknesses in Paska's route (as well as slowly draining the imp hordes with SSG), and ~4:30 is indeed within reach for you. But if you explore AV06 in a similar way, you also can bring it down to 4:30 or lower (with a more aggressive and balanced strategy). You just don't have the motivation for it, as you remember that your work for 4:54 was annoying and unpleasant back then.

It makes me happy to see some new demos and some posting from some of the players I could only read about untill now. I wasn't in speedrunning back then years ago sadly. I hope you all will more or less actively re-appear with some magic runs of yours :)

I dont see how I could do av map06 more agressive than it already is approached - but its certainly improvable to the extent you mention with enough luck. I'm sure theres also several routeimprovements that could be made.

That is the thing with these slaughtermaps more so than any level of skill; you need good oldfashioned luck with the infights. That becomes tiresome after a while, in that respect its more fruitfull to work on shorter maps in a compet-n context.

I had few attempts with 600 cells after picking +100 after 4 arch-viles, but my aim was 4:49 so it doesn't matter that much, so 520 was the minimum amount I continued with. IMO it's best idea to use SSG to the 2 pain elementals because it takes only 4 shots. That time it went bad and the imps too.
20 plasma cells can be shot freely as it doesn't cost BFG shots, so IMO it's better to use plasma to the hanging imps.

I'm rather surprised to see that much talk going around that failed attempt. I did spend many hours on it, but it was basically my first real max attempt as my 3 previous maxes were not that "max" (2 survivals and one short map). I had to learn how to use BFG, where to use it, where to use rocket launcher and so on. I just had no experience of maxing.

What comes to the shooting imps with SSG, it's easy to say, but hard to optimize. Usually I had no rockets to spare, no BFG shots to spare and so on. My aim was 4:49 so the weapon usage sucks and so on. Please, don't over analyze this crap :) I only used tactic which in my opinion had the best expected value to get 4:49 in reasonable time, which isn't the most time-wise tactic. I'm sure sub 4:30 is possible. 4:20 :smoke: would be tough barrier to beat.

Edit: Hey, btw ocelot, have you made no1820xx with S40 only? :p

Please post your demos ocelot, it just wouldn't make sense if somebody wasted hours trying to beat a record just to find out someday that it has been done maybe even faster long time ago before (s)he started to try, just because author decided not to post it.

Interesting discussion, but I think I'll keep off. The best demos of all time were IMO not even done with original executable. (Which means they were all obviously cheated and I should be laughed at. :p)

Paska said:
I'm rather surprised to see that much talk going around that failed attempt. I did spend many hours on it, but it was basically my first real max attempt as my 3 previous maxes were not that "max" (2 survivals and one short map). I had to learn how to use BFG, where to use it, where to use rocket launcher and so on. I just had no experience of maxing.

Right, the run in question just became a topic because of the confronted statement from SAV88, which is an opinion not backed up by anything susbstantial, and thus rather annoying from my perspective. I get what your saying, and it just underlines what I've been saying too.

Yes, the topic itself is very interesting, but I feel more pressure because the hurdle which I should clear is higher and higher.

Paska said:

I'm rather surprised to see that much talk going around that failed attempt. I did spend many hours on it, but it was basically my first real max attempt as my 3 previous maxes were not that "max" (2 survivals and one short map). I had to learn how to use BFG, where to use it, where to use rocket launcher and so on. I just had no experience of maxing.

However, it's really, really impressive. I can't believe that it's your first attempt. Probably, no one can stand watching my first max attempts. After a lot of terrible max demos, I managed to get this skill, but it's still very far from a excellent player like you.

Paska said:

Edit: Hey, btw ocelot, have you made no1820xx with S40 only? :p

You a Finn? That'd be pretty cool. =P

No, my last "serious" map18 nomo contribution was the s40 run from 2001. Man, 2001 was eleven (11) years ago. :/ I guess the time was 21.22?

A couple of years later I played a bit of nomo with s50 and did a some 20-second exits. It might have been as a warmup for my lv18-021, not sure now. Anyways, I think DANG was already dead by then, and those runs weren't as hard worked as the s40 one either, so I never uploaded them.

Andy Johnsen said:

I agree, and when that trust is breached through cheating (discovered or admitted whats the difference...) there should be zero tolerance in regards to accepting new runs as records from the given player, in my opinion. Anything else is a slap in the face to someone who spent 50 hours on the "beaten" record.

Between discovered and admitted cheating, I see all of the difference in the world. A discovered cheater is someone who wants maximum recognition for minimum effort, and who oversteps the limits of plausibly human play as he attempts to gain a crescendoing chorus of "oohs" and "ahs" from the audience. He would never admit to cheating on any of his prior efforts as he doesn't want to draw any suspicion towards himself, even after the jury has already judged him guilty. Admitting to cheating simply doesn't fit with that character type. An admitted cheater is someone who starts out with good intentions, compromises with his principles when the going gets tough, but then feels guilty for taking the easy way out, and is compelled to apologize out of respect for himself and the victimized community. This cheater may then either disappear from the limelight, or will work to redeem himself, as Kimo has done.

That said, could a cheater try to garner trust by admitting to past cheating? Potentially, yes. Are any cheaters that clever? Historically, no.

A "zero tolerance" policy against accepting demos from admitted former cheaters would accomplish nothing but to discourage cheaters from coming clean.

Andy Johnsen said:

Unfortunately I cant get myselfe to enjoy your runs because of this,

That is unfortunate. They're really good!

ocelot said:

I have not followed this thread regularly at all, but the picture I'm getting is that we have 2 players of notable talent contributing actively -- good old stx-Vile and this new prospect who calls himself Paska. Things were better for speedrunning 10 years ago. Firstly, we had Compet-N, which motivated players much more than a solitary Doomworld thread. I might myself feel more inclined to upload the records I have lying around if there were more left of Compet-N's magnificent splendor than this thread. Secondly, even if we restrict ourselves just to capable maxkillers, stx-Vile, Adam Hegyi, Henning Skogstø, myself, Anders Johnsen, and Vincent Catalaa were all active back then, and definitely capable of improving upon nearly any maxkill of this length.

Noobbait has already pointed out how this post could "rub someone the wrong way," so there's no need for me to repeat that. Instead, I'll make a simple proposal. Instead of uploading your record-breaking demos, just post a list of your record times. We will match or beat them. That will reduce the status of your demos from "cutting edge" to "historical artifacts," which should also free you from this dilemma you seem to have - deciding whether or not Doomworld is worthy.

In times when theres not much to go by but trust when it comes to verifying demos, I dont think it sends the right message to "forgive and forget" someones breach of that trust unconditionally - how will that be anything but "a free pass for cheating as long as you come clean about it...down the road". I think the only preventive effect comes through not accepting demos from players who went down that road. That dosnt mean said person cant upload whatever demos he feels like, but as far as putting them on the record sheet, that makes me skeptical.

That said, I dont want to blow this out of proportion. From what he writes, and how it looks theres a pretty good chanse his shady stint was just what he says it was. I think its unfortunate that his work now leaves an aftertaste for me, but I'm positive theres enough other players around to keep him motivated. I agree that its an uncharacteristic cheaters trade to stick around and apologize after such an event, and I give him credit for that.

In ocelots defense (not that he isnt capable of responding himself) I think you need to realize its not about hating on this forum and its purpose. If he wanna sit on these records and wait for a compet-n resurection down the road, thats his choice. With no real organized analysis of demos that come in, one run the risk of having a record beaten by unfair play, and generally accepted as the real thing by the audience. A compet-n environment is safer, in that respect. At least it was, when one could actually detect cheating to some degree -and had a firm moderator maintaining the database.

Creaphis said:

Instead of uploading your record-breaking demos, just post a list of your record times. We will match or beat them. That will reduce the status of your demos from "cutting edge" to "historical artifacts," which should also free you from this dilemma you seem to have - deciding whether or not Doomworld is worthy.

Trying to gauge back at him with comments of this type is not constructive. Stop rubbing each other, or someone will accidentally combust :}

While I don't understand Ocelot's reasoning in holding back his demos, I have to admit that he doesn't owe it to anyone to show them. One can only hope Compet-N gets revived someday so we get to see his smooth, stylish demos once again :(

As for the whole "modern speedrunning methods" debate, I don't think the huge improvements on maps like AV26 or HR24 were a result of techniques that arose recently, but more that the pwads did not receive nearly as much competition as the iwad demos in CN. Obviously certain pwad maps were very well-optimized during that early time period, but I agree with Ocelot that this was a result of either back-and-forth competition or of a single player's extensive efforts on that particular map. It's kind of funny that PL32 gets mentioned, as I'm not sure you two (Ocelot at least didn't seem to know) are aware that Drew actually improved that run recently by a whopping 31 seconds. Link. There were quite a few players both now and then capable of improving on many of these runs mentioned.

Nevertheless, it's cool that you guys still pay attention to the game somewhat. There's been quite a bit of demoing action on non-CN wads, such as Scythe/Scythe 2, Plutonia 2, HR2, and so forth from great players. Feel free to tease us with a demo or two down the line :)

"I have records, you'll have to trust me."

Yes, times have changed. These days it's easy to make vanilla-compatible cheat demos with prboom-plus. But, players still make legit Compet-N demos with doom2.exe and share them with everybody. Where would demo recording be without people sharing and competing against each other? I'm sure ocelot has watched other players' demos and learned from them. We might not be legally obligated to share our demos, but we definitely have a moral obligation. As far as I'm concerned, keeping legit record demos private is bad etiquette. All I see from ocelot is someone claiming to have records without showing proof.

If someone honestly thinks a demo is cheated, they should say something on the forum and try to get it sorted out. There are ways for players to prove themselves. And, considering the prboom-plus era we live in, players have to accept the potential questions about their skills.

ocelot said:

You a Finn? That'd be pretty cool. =P

Joo.

There are more finns too. Personally I know only one (xepop) or two if I count a guy who has never sent a demo :p

I'm a Finn too, though I don't really do speedruns. I think I might have the skills needed to do relatively easy runs at least, I just don't have the patience and I suck at remembering complex routes or planning them. Anyway, Paska's username and how it is casually used without people knowing what it means repeatedly gives me chuckles :D

Aside from its Finnish meaning, the word "Paska" also has some completely different meanings in some other languages. It's "Easter bread" in Russian and Ukrainian, and there's also a municipality called "Paska" in my second native land (Germany).

Heh, that probably explains origins of the finnish "paska". :p

Creaphis said:

Instead of uploading your record-breaking demos, just post a list of your record times. We will match or beat them. That will reduce the status of your demos from "cutting edge" to "historical artifacts," which should also free you from this dilemma you seem to have - deciding whether or not Doomworld is worthy.

Posting times without demos of the runs themselves would be like test-tube-impregnating your wife. It gets the job done if you need offspring, but the best part is missing. To me, demos were always more than just vehicles of competition. They were displays of skill and works of art, both of which elements would be missing if I were only to post the times.

Also, people may be forgetting that I am taking a risk by not uploading those things. Someone else could accomplish the same things while I procrastinated and then s/he'd get all the glory. You all should bear that in mind. The risk DOES exist.

I think part of what caused all these flames was that many people don't realize how passionate people like myself or Andy were/are about speedrunning. I spent a fucked-up amount of time between 1997 and 2008 upon becoming good at this game, in both single and multiplayer. I used a strong expression because in retrospect, I really wish I had invested all that time and energy on something more useful that gaining bragging rights in an fringe internet community. Well, it's done. And with a huge investment like that comes a certain amount of pride. When you've (mis)spent a decade on something, you're inclined to be a bit touchy about having your efforts slighted. That's why the "we are the shit, the old farts couldn't hang if they were here" mindset I read between the lines of Sav88's initial comment rubbed me the wrong way. and I'm pretty sure it did Andy too, though he's way too polite to say it. But let's not get into that anymore, as the flames seem to have died down already and people seem friendly with each other.

I will also note that some of the most freakishly talented players that I've known don't seem to take themselves quite so seriously. Maybe it's because they didn't have to work as hard and are therefore less ego-invested in it all. Vile seems a good example, his learning curve in 2001-2002 was extremely rapid, and I've always found him the most likeable of the great players.

On the topic of cheating, I'll say that I mostly share Andy's sentiments. I will say that I think coming clean about it is better than not doing so, but having crossed that line once still casts a serious shadow of doubt in my mind whenever the player posts something. I think it's a little like steroid use in sports and athletics: if you've used them once, you're NEVER going to be a clean athlete again, ever.

I have felt the temptation myself. Back in 2003 or so, Sedlo had me beat by one (1) gametic in map02 nomo. I think his time was 24.62 and mine 24.65. Granted, it was only nomo, but I had quite a bit of pride invested in that map, and so did he. This had me quite displeased and so I nomoed the map some more. Eventually I had two runs where I reached the exit 0.08s faster than him, in what I think would still today be really good runs. Both times I slightly missed the rather narrow exit switch. All it would have taken to fix this was to adjust the final TurnLeft gametics by just a few units. Who woulda noticed or suspected anything? However, I knew that if I crossed that line, all my work to become a respectable player would amount to nothing. Therefore, I just swallowed the bitter pill of having come up short one step from the finish line.

Another example: One of the most legendary Compet-N players of all time once trusted me with a demo of his attempt at beating one of the most legendary single-level runs of all time. The official record was obviously a high millisecond time, and this attempt was an xx.00, an effort that looked TAS-like, a clear visual improvement on the already very impressive run. One gametic from beating what many probably already considered an unbeatable record. I hacked that demo for shits and giggles, and I moved the final Use command (yes, it's a switch exit) one gametic earlier. There, now the demo looked exactly the same, and now it broke the barrier. Now it was XXminusone.97. Then I deleted the hacked demo. I'm sure it had crossed this player's mind too to simply adjust the ending a bit to get rid of that inconvenient little gametic. He never did it though, and the old record still stands. That's because you don't cross that line. Period. Because if you cross it, you can't uncross it.

You can certainly say it's just a game. So is football. So is soccer. So is tennis. In those games you get a ban for cheating. And if you get caught enough times, it's a lifetime one. This fellow has only gotten caught once, and it was on his own, unprovoked confession. That does count for something. He was only what, 15? So maybe... maybe. But if I am personally to trust his runs again someday, it's gonna take a while. Meanwhile, as Andy said, it's not like there aren't worse crimes in the world, and he's certainly free to enjoy the game like the rest.

While it is amazing to see some of my all-time favorite players coming back from "retirement" as well as posting on this thread, it kinda saddens me to see Andy's and Juho's "prejudice" against non-Vanilla players/new players.

I really did wish I started speedrunning back when Compet-N existed, but I was only an appreciator back in 1997. All I know is that I've been watching Doom speed demos since the 90's but I only started speedrunning in 2011. The reason? I couldn't play without WASD, so I lacked the skill to record Vanilla demos. Though, in 2011 I discovered PrBoom existed and got into recording.

As much as I love this game, playing PrBoom was the solution I found to get into recording, and I find it really sad that the oldschool Doom Gods sees demos recorded by new players and/or on source ports. We kind of try to get what you guys started going and this wonderful game lives on.

Unfortunately Compet-N was discontinued and this is all we have now. It is all about trust. Give the new players some credit, we try hard, work hard, spend a lot of time on the same map, look for new tricks, improve our both movement and monster slaughtering techniques and, from time to time, record some amazing stuff, just as you did. :)