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entryway
Senior Member

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jongo said:
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/*

Socket Error

10-05-07 08:13 #

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entryway
Senior Member

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The movie is really really cool except map07 (using of "-trace_thingshealth x y z" will help) Don't stop and do full movie. And please, consult about possible tricks with Grazza. The newest complete movie of Hell Revialed must be born.

http://prboom-plus.sourceforge.net/hr04-13.zip

10-05-07 10:28 #

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Kristian Ronge
Senior Member

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I agree; great to see these maps done this way. Lots of close calls with single-digit health.

jongo said (in the .txt):
I myself suck with performing glides and it really stops all my initiations in making a complete movie (i.e. map02 is truly impossible :/)

The map 2 glide is easy if you enable vertical sensitivity and just slightly move the mouse forward while facing the opening completely straight.

10-05-07 12:13 #

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Gusta
Member

Posts: 472
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Yes it is easy ... hmm I still have some 0:12? demo for it somewhere :-)
btw. jongo, don't you play Elastomania too? :-))) (I suppose that you are the same ANpDaD as here http://www.moposite.com/records.php...ld+Top100&dd=TT)
I really liked map03, great lift-catch. But maybe before red key you could get all 3 SGguys with one shot?

Last edited by Gusta on 10-05-07 at 13:32

10-05-07 13:08 #

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Grazza
Quaerere Verum

Posts: 9745
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BTW, regarding the double-archie exit jump in map14, I recall Cameron Prosser mentioned this possibility some years back. But he wanted to do it with the two archies from the small room with the shotgun, just north from the exit - potentially very quick. He described this as "possible but rather tricky". See hrtricks.txt inside hr_tascp.zip.

To make glides easier, I suggest making vertical sensitivity low, using a moderate degree of acceleration, and to be walking. And either be recording, or if practicing, to use the -shorttics option (this makes it less likely for accidental mouse turning to knock you out of alignment).

10-05-07 15:18 #

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jongo
Green Marine

Posts: 46
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btw. jongo, don't you play Elastomania too? :-))) (I suppose that you are the same ANpDaD as here http://www.moposite.com/records.php...ld+Top100&dd=TT)

Yeah, it's me :) I used to play it for 5 years, and the first two years i had spent playing around 10 hours each day. Got tired, and i'm not active last time, but still look for the things going on with the scene. I guess my last cool run is this one (in case you have the game):
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/anpdad/mc15anp.zip

BTW, regarding the double-archie exit jump in map14, I recall Cameron Prosser mentioned this possibility some years back.

Yep, i've tried it. Was close on performing the trick on NM, but still it seems too tricky. If i ever start a complete run, i'd do it of course :)

The movie is really really cool except map07 (using of "-trace_thingshealth x y z" will help)

Hey, thanks :) Though this movie is "raw" and more demonstrational & experimental and all the times will be improved if i ever find guts to start a full run.

I'm practicing glides at the moment, and already got the idea of low vertical sensitivity (practiced Revolution! maps. Particularly, succeded tv07p016 and tv12p013), but thanks for the help anyway :)

Here are hr24 NM and UV speed TAS runs using different routes. Both can be implemented in any skill though.
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/hr/hn24-010.zip
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/hr/hr24-010.zip

And i utilized another AV jump, this time at map29:
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/hr/hr29-051.zip

10-07-07 12:47 #

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evocalvin
Warming Up

Posts: 23
Registered: 06-07

All of the demos are great :) Jongo
glad to see the new route in level 24 NM skill
i like this route more than UV skill demo
the AV jump is awesome in level 29

Any plans on making a Full Built HR-UV Speed movie? :)

10-07-07 15:25 #

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entryway
Senior Member

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jongo said:
And i utilized another AV jump, this time at map29:
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/hr/hr29-051.zip

It is the longest jump in doom which I saw. I recommend to use <10% of speed and freecam to observe this super jump

10-07-07 17:37 #

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Kristian Ronge
Senior Member

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Near-perfect timing in the run-up, as well as near-perfect timing of the two blasts (i.e., the blast from AV number 2 takes effect almost exactly as the player is at the top of the jump resulting from the blast from AV number 1). This makes for a most impressive display! :-)

10-07-07 21:58 #

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Gusta
Member

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jongo said:

Yeah, it's me :) I used to play it for 5 years, and the first two years i had spent playing around 10 hours each day. Got tired, and i'm not active last time, but still look for the things going on with the scene. I guess my last cool run is this one (in case you have the game):
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/anpdad/mc15anp.zip

Yeah I have this game and I have even already seen this yours great run! I am checking Mopolauta quite often :-) I have never contributed anything though ... my total time 50:45,51 is not so respectable :-)

And back to the thread: Somebody knows how/where to wath those demos without red screens after the AV jumps? Pls. tell me it :-)
Very nice demos on hr24, I expected 2 almost same demos using UV route (because I am noob and haven't read your notes about them before watching) so I was more then pleasantly surprised.:-)
Oh and I would love to see full HR TAS run too :-) (suppose that nobody can handle this crazyness with normal play)

10-08-07 09:21 #

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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep

Posts: 10441
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Gusta said:
And back to the thread: Somebody knows how/where to wath those demos without red screens after the AV jumps?

code:PrBoom+ menu
 Options
  General
 Common render
  Change palette on pain: No

10-08-07 09:37 #

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Gusta
Member

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Thank you :-)

10-09-07 09:04 #

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jongo
Green Marine

Posts: 46
Registered: 07-07

Not so much time needed for me to gather myself and start making a movie :)
I've made 5 maps so far:
map01 - 0:06
map02 - 0:09
map03 - 0:36
map04 - 0:24
map05 - 1:05

I've never heard of map02 switch trick before, that allows to skip 2nd glide (the fastest demo i've seen is hr02p015 by cack_handed). But probably it's known already :)

This is more or less optimized now:
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/hr/hr-run.zip

10-10-07 01:44 #

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xit-vono
Member

Posts: 424
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Very nice. Maps 1-4 looked like they are pretty much optimized. Map 5 had some good parts but I have to wonder if you can get past the hell knight without killing him. If you don't manage that, you may consider taking the berzerk instead as you can kill him relatively quickly with 3 punches(I did this regularly when I did my Requiem movie). One more thing, since hr is somewhat less known for speedrunning, there are bound to be new tricks or strategies that may come up, so it may make sense to focus on individual level runs.

10-10-07 03:23 #

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Grazza
Quaerere Verum

Posts: 9745
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jongo said:
I've never heard of map02 switch trick before, that allows to skip 2nd glide (the fastest demo i've seen is hr02p015 by cack_handed). But probably it's known already :)

Yes. Gusta pointed out this possibility.

10-10-07 03:45 #

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entryway
Senior Member

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:-(
it's built

10-10-07 08:20 #

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jongo
Green Marine

Posts: 46
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Map 5 had some good parts but I have to wonder if you can get past the hell knight without killing him. If you don't manage that, you may consider taking the berzerk instead as you can kill him relatively quickly with 3 punches(I did this regularly when I did my Requiem movie).

I would have lost a second taking a berserk, and another one punching a hell knight. Or not? Using RL seems the fastest way to me.

:-(
it's built

Only the first two maps. I'm the one who never turns smooth demo playback off, so the demo looks ok to me. And i was sure that vast majority uses prboom-plus for viewing, that's the reason why i didnt pay much attention to smoothening my mouse movements (and even added two completely built demos). Though i agree that the movie looks
awfully shaky in vanilla doom and other compatible ports. So, the question: should i rerecord it trying to make it more pleasant looking?

I've made two more maps - map06 in 0:40 and map07 in 1:29. And will not record more yet before the issue is decided, because it seems quite important now.

The link is the same:
http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/hr/hr-run.zip

10-12-07 02:18 #

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Grazza
Quaerere Verum

Posts: 9745
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I always have smooth demo playback turned off (it's a neat feature, but personally I prefer to see the movement as it actually is - warts and all).

I don't find the jerkiness and sudden turns a problem, but rather a product of the optimization of the route. In this discipline, faster is better, even if it creates a visual oddity.

Besides, even compet-n allows mouse spinning utilities, so the ultimate in sharp turns (180 degree) could appear in them. Fortunately, I don't recall any compet-n players making use of this possibility.

So I'd say leave it as it is.

The thing I do find ugly is strafe-50 during turns, but this has been discussed before.

10-12-07 03:12 #

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xit-vono
Member

Posts: 424
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I say don't worry too much about visual quality and focus more on time. It looks ok as it is.

10-12-07 07:52 #

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entryway
Senior Member

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jongo said:
And will not record more yet before the issue is decided, because it seems quite important now

Я бы переделал. Тем более со стороны кажется, что тебе настойчивости не занимать. Неужели самому не приятно будет осознавать, что твою демку можно будет смотреть без рвотных порывов в ванили? Глянь мою e1uv-345.lmp - используемые маршруты исполнены почти идеально и ... абсолютно плавно. И заметь, я переписал свою же дёрганую демку e1uv-404.lmp в большинстве своём теми же самыми маршрутами, но быстрее и плавнее. Это сложнее, но это стоит того. Придётся взять на вооружение несколько техник: уменьшить чувствительность мыши; по возможности не делать поворотов вообще (движения задом); корректировать уже выполненные повороты напрямую в демке в hex режиме (я использую hiew) или с помощь dre, ну и конечно же набраться терпения, настойчивости и желания переигрывать те же самые моменты 100 раз подряд только ради достижения бОльшей плавности. Херетик, например, в своём кино Memento Mori не поленился и переписал сначала, после того, как увидел как оно все дёргается в ванили (тоже где-то с 7-го уровня) и финальная его демка вообще не выглядит как tas. Я считаю, что лучше пожертвовать несколькими секундами, чем получить то, что ты получил, тем более, что при грамотной работе, потери будут либо минимальны либо их не будет вообще. Местные советчики в стиле "все нормально", "продолжай в этом же духе" - это всего лишь вежливость, а выключение стрейфов50 на поворотах скорее было бы исключением, так как все известные мне tas демки записанные в прбум+ используют это. Это была моя ошибка при реализации этой фичи, но уже поздно что-то менять.

10-12-07 09:37 #

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Schneelocke
Forum Regular

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jongo said:
I've made two more maps - map06 in 0:40 and map07 in 1:29. And will not record more yet before the issue is decided, because it seems quite important now.

I'd say it ultimately depends on whether you personally are happy with it or not. If yes, don't rerecord just because what others might think; if not, scrap what you've got and redo it until you yourself are happy with it.

My own opinion would be that looks are definitely second to speed in TAS movies; if something looks shaky or otherwise non-smooth and if it's obvious that it's a TAS movie, then that's fine as long as it's faster that way. Well, at least if you're going purely for speed: if you're trying to do what might be called a playaround rather than a timeattack where you try to demonstrate superhuman skills, reflexes and aim, perfect luck etc. in a demo that arguably *could* have been done by a regular non-TASing player (in theory!), then that's a different story.

But still, I'd say what matters is what you think and whether you're happy with things the way they are or not.

10-12-07 10:05 #

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Kristian Ronge
Senior Member

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entryway said:
Russian

Please, PM.

My $0.02: The motivation behind making a demo should be personal enjoyment, i.e. you should be doing the demo, first and foremost, for yourself to enjoy. Always keep that in mind when considering these things. The opinions of everyone else (yes, even super-smooth-advocate Andrey ;-D) are a distant second. Some people prefer smoothness, some people don't care. So, it's basically an echo of Schneelocke's advice.

10-12-07 13:07 #

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jongo
Green Marine

Posts: 46
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Well, i really like it this way. So i'll just leave a suggestion to turn smooth demo playback on in a txt.
I'll utilize your hints next time for more vieweing pleasure, be sure Andrey :)

And sorry for being stupid about this hell knight thing, Xit. Now i get what you meant. Tried it a bit more, and yes - he can be avoided without killing. I saved almost 4secs with this and most likely will rerecord everything since map05. Thanks for mentioning ^_^
EDIT: got 0:59 here. Will be uploaded later.

Last edited by jongo on 10-13-07 at 14:33

10-13-07 02:27 #

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jongo
Green Marine

Posts: 46
Registered: 07-07

I got a bit tired of making this movie, so i'll stop for now. Though i will finish it later, probably even before 2008 steps in our houses.
23 maps are finished so far, and i'm pleased with results (mostly).
But watch with smooth demo playback please, it's really how i planned it to be watched. At least for the first time =)
The times are:

Map | Time | hrdq |
-----|--------|--------|
01 | 0:06 | 0:09 |
02 | 0:09 | 0:59 |
03 | 0:36 | 1:02 |
04 | 0:24 | 0:37 |
05 | 0:59 | 1:33 |
06 | 0:40 | 0:51 |
07 | 1:28 | 1:46 |
08 | 0:16 | 0:32 |
09 | 0:23 | 1:26 |
10 | 0:27 | 0:36 |
11 | 1:15 | 1:54 |
12 | 0:42 | 0:51 |
13 | 0:40 | 0:51 |
14 | 0:09 | 1:54 |
15 | 0:17 | 0:53 |
16 | 0:21 | 1:18 |
17 | 0:12 | 0:46 |
18 | 1:04 | 1:35 |
19 | 0:20 | 0:25 |
20 | 0:35 | 0:44 |
21 | 0:21 | 0:25 |
22 | 0:52 | 1:30 |
23 | 1:33 | 1:51 |

Here's the link:

http://webdrive.reborn.ru/jongo/hr/hr-movie.zip

Server goes down from time to time, and it doesnt like most download managers, so i'll attach as well.
Enjoy!

Attachment: hr-movie.zip
This has been downloaded 47 time(s).

11-17-07 15:49 #

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entryway
Senior Member

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O-h m-y G-o-d! This demo is amazing and full of action and aggression. Sometimes I could not understand what happens there. Level 18 after 13-th second as an example. Level7 is really fast and masterful. I think it is the hardest and most interesting work of the year in a demo-scene.

11-17-07 18:47 #

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Vile
The man made of sticks

Posts: 1197
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Not bad, but there are many places where it could be improved blah blah blah...

Just kidding, that was quite fun to watch. :) The only real flaw I can see is that it's not an hr30, yet. ;)

Those glides are so amusing... eventually we'll find engine bugs that let the Doom guy break down any wall he wishes and speedruns will become obsolete.

11-17-07 19:13 #

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Marco
Mini-Member

Posts: 81
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Phenomenal performance to say the least jongo! I was amazed how long you were at 4 health on map 7 without biting it. I would be surprised to see anybody top the runs on most, if not all, of those levels.

11-17-07 23:39 #

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jongo
Green Marine

Posts: 46
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thanks!
By the way, i would really like to listen to some explanations about what happens in the end of map18 - why does this linedef stops working. I noticed it accidentaly, used it, but dont have any technical explanation about it.

Those glides are so amusing... eventually we'll find engine bugs that let the Doom guy break down any wall he wishes

Heh, these words remind me of some Blood behaviour. But you dont break down walls in Blood, the walls break you down instead :) I tried to do some glides there and always was squished for no good reason!

11-18-07 04:26 #

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Grazza
Quaerere Verum

Posts: 9745
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Great work indeed. Sorry for not replying to your earlier e-mail, Jongo, but I didn't really have anything insightful to add. I think the tricks in maps 16 and 18 are your own to claim. Probably someone had noticed the 32-unit gaps in map16, but I don't recall anyone actually recording anything using them.

And yes, let's hope there are new categories of tricks that let us smash maps apart in new and unexpected ways! That brings to mind this Quake-related discussion, btw. Seems they're still finding/understanding new and bizarre stuff too.

11-18-07 04:47 #

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Gusta
Member

Posts: 472
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jongo said:
thanks!
By the way, i would really like to listen to some explanations about what happens in the end of map18 - why does this linedef stops working. I noticed it accidentaly, used it, but dont have any technical explanation about it.

For me this is a typical doom engine bug when exactly north-south or east-west trigger linedefs simply doesn't work while player is strafing over them. I have no better explanation for this :-/
Oh I have to say it too: excellent run! In map07 I was saying to myself: "damn this is not possible to survive!" Map22 was diabolique! And the others too! :-)

11-18-07 08:35 #

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