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termrork

How far should source port differences go?

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First of all a little story:

Maybe you remember me by doing the ty30-037-run,
a TAS speedrun in which I completed doom2's map30 in UV Tyson mode.
Well... I made it in TAS because I weren't/aren't able to complete it without,
so I wanted to show you how to complete this lvl in UV Tyson, that other
people can try it for yourself, I was looking forward to see such a demo.

Yesterday I checked the doomedsda.us for new Updates, I became very happy when
I saw that there is a UV Tyson map30 run :D...
but while I watched it I became really really sad, angry and especially
disappointed...
Reason: the run was made with the source port Legacy v1.42.
You may ask yourself where is the problem? But for someone like me, who studied
UV Tyson in map30 very well, see the difference between doing this map in Tyson
mode via Legacy, or with doom2.exe prboom doom95.

In legacy you hit John Romero almost each time you shoot...
In doom2.exe, prboom, doom95, you don't
In zdoom it is even not possible to hit him

and that is the point, all the dozens and dozens of hours I spend for trying
UV tyson in this map with doom2.exe and the hours I put into the TAS run,
would have been done in not more than an hour with legacy...
But I didn't want to do this run with a young source port so you can say:
"Oh wow, he made it with an different source port... what an achievment,
with the original doom2.exe he couldn't also do it"

Another thing makes it easier to run this with legacy:
The fact that you can walk over monsters and the fact that
the revenant can't attack you in legacy

so in my opinion the 1:45 run of Looper who ever this guy is? I doupt this is
his first run... is ridiculous
and it makes my ty30-037 also ridiculous

I am very satisfied with my run...

So I ask you, there is a huge difference in this run between
doom2.exe and legacy, so how can both count as a official speedrun?

You could creat a own source port, in which "idclip" is allowed and doable
with a button, going through the walls to romero, killing him and you can
say, wohay, I made this map in 10 seconds.

So where is the limit ?

Before I wrote this I thought some would think I am just saying stuff and
I wouldn't be able to do such a run for myself...
Thats why I tried it for myself

About the 10th run was succesful (2nd run with an Arch-Vile):
Time: 1:28 it is rather bad played, sorry, I am not used to play with
this port

you find it in the attachment

There is also another important aspect for me:

Talented speedrunner would get demotivated to do a map30 Tyson run which is
probably slower than 1:45 because someone else already did it even faster
with legacy..., because being better than 1:45 with doom2.exe or prboom is
very hard.

So what do you think?
Do I overreact?
Am I right?
Should a legacy run in this map count?

Sorry for my bad english, I hope you can understand what I want to say
and also a bit my opinion.

P.S. what made me even more angry was what Looper wrote in the txt:
"Too bad it's on legacy :)"
With each other source port he wouldn't have done it!
I don't want to call him names... but it would be in my opinion fair
of him if he apologize and if he say who he is / why he even made this run...
TO MAKE ME ANGRY ?!

Edit:
the attachment didn't work:
http://www.file-upload.net/download-2851535/ty30128.lmp.html

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1. No attachment...

2. Do you understand the sentence "Too bad it's on legacy :)" when you said before English is not your strong point?

3. Personally I didn't watch Looper's demo (I thought it wouldn't be interesting enough to download Legacy, etc.), but he has, and everyone has, right to record stuff they want to record. You may call a demo ridiculous, yet another person may like it.

4. At DSDA the demos are ordered by time (from fastest to slowest). TAS with non-TAS, Zdoom with Eternity with Doom2 together. When I record a demo in 21:00 in PrBoom+ and the other entry was 30:00 in ZDoom, I don't say I have "beaten" the other time. BUT, if the other entry had been in Doom2.exe, Chocolate Doom, Doom95 and if I had used -complevel 2, I could have claimed my demo was better. Still, not everyone would agree, Henning Skogsto for example does not "recognize" source port demos for classic WADs as records, even if they can be played back with doom2.exe v 1.9.

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termrork said:

So I ask you, there is a huge difference in this run between
doom2.exe and legacy, so how can both count as a official speedrun?

Define "official".

If the DSDA allows any port, they allow any port. If they only allow a few ports, they only allow a few ports. If they only allow the original "vanilla" executable, they only allow the original vanilla executable. It's their decision. It turns out they allow any port, even TAS runs.

termrork said:

Do I overreact?

Yes.

termrork said:

Am I right?

No.

termrork said:

Should a legacy run in this map count?

It counts as a Legacy run.

It is obvious that, through changes ranging from the subtle (different random number generator) to the blatant (allowing jumping/crouching/SR-50 while turning/etc.), a run can be a lot simpler with some ports than with others. Likewise, you could use a dehacked mod to make things easier. Or harder.

As long as you're honest about your run, saying clearly how you did it and what you used, I don't see why there should be any problem. If it's easier with Legacy, then it's simply easier with Legacy. A Legacy run doesn't invalidate a run done with something else; just like a TAS run doesn't invalidate a run done directly.

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I do see what you mean. The legacy run would make other people think that somehow thats more impressive than your hard worked TAS run. But ain't much you can really do about it, everyone here knows your run would be better anyway. Just the randomers who are incredibly new with doom may think different.

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Sorry termrork. I didn't know that you don't like source ports. Your tactic was cool so I tried it and it worked (in legacy).

In doomedsda legacy is allowed source port so I thought that it might be good idea to send it there, since there was none non-TAS runs done with tyson. I didn't mean to disappoint you.

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Csonicgo said:

HULK ANGRY AT LEGACY! HULK... make bad post!

Whoa sir, your post was 100% useless! How do you do that?

I understand termrork your frustration, but you surely are overreacting. Comment "Too bad it's on legacy :)" means he acknowledges it's easier in legacy than in vanilla.

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termrork said:

There is also another important aspect for me:

Talented speedrunner would get demotivated to do a map30 Tyson run which is
probably slower than 1:45 because someone else already did it even faster
with legacy..., because being better than 1:45 with doom2.exe or prboom is
very hard.

So what do you think?
Do I overreact?
Am I right?
Should a legacy run in this map count?

Sorry for my bad english, I hope you can understand what I want to say
and also a bit my opinion.

P.S. what made me even more angry was what Looper wrote in the txt:
"Too bad it's on legacy :)"
With each other source port he wouldn't have done it!
I don't want to call him names... but it would be in my opinion fair
of him if he apologize and if he say who he is / why he even made this run...
TO MAKE ME ANGRY ?!


I hope you're not trolling, but I'll take the bait.

You obviously have a right to your opinion, but since you're asking for other's opinions, here's mine (a rather insignificant one in the demo community, I might add):

Doom demo competition, even when C-N was still alive, has always been a friendly and easy-going affair. Some people over the years might have taken it more seriously than others, but the overall environment of the community (I've been a long time lurker), to me, has always been a rather happily insouciant atmosphere.

When C-N was still alive, the competition was obviously more fierce and the rules more stringent, but never draconian (compared to other "professional" gaming competitions, where monetary gain is actually involved). Now that C-N is mostly dead, and people here follow a set of even more casual and lax rules for demo recording (i.e. as long as you don't commit some egregious TAS violation, anything goes), I really don't see what you have to be upset about.

No one is giving you any tangible benefits, points, or anything else for being first on the list in DSDA or for having recorded in Doom2.exe, and I hope nobody's epeen is growing from achieving a perceived "Doomgod" status amongst other players either. For me at least, I record demos for fun (it's addicting as hell), and if people happen to enjoy my demos, all the better. Although I do strive to beat timetables if I can, it's just a secondary goal that I have, not some overriding deciding factor in the reason why I even record demos. It seems from your post that being upset and consequently demanding an apology from the guy who did it in a non-TAS fashion is YOUR first priority. It was your original mindset, the fact that you didn't want others to think that you couldn't do it in Doom2.exe, that forced you to eventually do TAS in the first place.

Here's the main point: I don't give a shit what others think of my skill. Hell, I OPENLY declare that I suck. So what?

I don't particularly agree either with some opinions of Doom Legends on this matter like Henning, but I respect it. Maybe my opinion doesn't really count, because I've never competed in C-N, will never care to, or had my demo beaten in a situation like yours. Either way, just my opinion that you are overreacting.

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I don't know what's more disappointing, the OP having the nerve to ask for someone to apology for daring to share something with others, or for that someone to show up and actually apologise. Some people have such twisted values in this community I'd be ashamed to be part of it if it wasn't for people like vdgg, Qaatar, etc..

Makes me wish there was one "classic" DSDA layout showing only doom2.exe times (or doom2.exe + boom.exe + prboom.exe, or whatever standard the "DEMOS ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS" guys can agree on) and the current layout as optional, so the bitching would finally stop. It is obvious DSDA is just seen as a hi-score list to some, and taking steps to acknowledge that might calm down some angry troopers.

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Qatar said:
It was your original mindset, the fact that you didn't want others to think that you couldn't do it in Doom2.exe, that forced you to eventually do TAS in the first place.

I don't think so. He did it as a TAS run to show it is technically possible in Doom2, to see if someone could do it, not to prove what he could or couldn't do. Had he wanted to make people think he could do it in vanilla himself, he would have cheated, using TAS but pretending it was legit.

termrork said:
Talented speedrunner would get demotivated to do a map30 Tyson run which is probably slower than 1:45 because someone else already did it even faster with legacy..., because being better than 1:45 with doom2.exe or prboom is very hard.

Not true. A talented speed runner knows that different engine features mean that resulting demos are not comparable or less comparable to each other.

Do I overreact?

Yeah, and more importantly, as others have noted, you misinterpreted the guy's comment, where he implied he understood that a Legacy demo is not the same as a vanilla demo.

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myk said:

I don't think so. He did it in TAS to show it is technically possible in Doom2, to see if someone could do it, not to prove what he could or couldn't do. Had he wanted to make people think he could do it in vanilla himself, he would have cheated, using TAS but pretending it was legit.


Perhaps I misinterpreted him as his English is not particularly strong, but my original statement is exactly how I would respond to this:

termrork said:
But I didn't want to do this run with a young source port so you can say:
"Oh wow, he made it with an different source port... what an achievment,
with the original doom2.exe he couldn't also do it"


Seems to me that if he thought that way, it logically follows that he more or less wanted people to see that HE could do it in vanilla himself. Yeah, sure, Doom2.exe is much more difficult, but if the trick was possible and he could not do it himself (without TAS), then why NOT use some "young source port" as he says and just add an addendum: "A more skilled player with more effort can definitely do this in doom2.exe, as you can only hit Romero some of the time." That's enough if all he wanted was to show the trick. Why the hell would he care at all that someone else did it with Legacy? Not only that, but to come onto Doomworld and complain and demand an apology? Ridiculous.

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Qaatar said:
Perhaps I misinterpreted him as his English is not particularly strong, but my original statement is exactly how I would respond to this:

I wouldn't, in the context as a whole, including the bad English. He does value vanilla demos more (I don't object to that as I tend to agree) and a non-vanilla port would not show whether it's possible in Doom, prompting people to say it's not even possible.

Yeah, sure, Doom2.exe is much more difficult, but if the trick was possible and he could not do it himself (without TAS), then why NOT use some "young source port" as he says and just add an addendum: "A more skilled player with more effort can definitely do this in doom2.exe, as you can only hit Romero some of the time."

Using a port, except Chocolate or PrBoom at vanilla compatibility, would not serve those purposes. I see no reason to use Chocolate or PrBoom for a Compet-n demo, in any case.

Why the hell would he care at all that someone else did it with Legacy? Not only that, but to come onto Doomworld and complain and demand an apology? Ridiculous.

Reading his post in its entirety, I think he's confused, possibly due to language barriers. I presume he feels someone may reach poor conclusions about what it means to "beat a time" without seeing the technical differences. It makes no sense otherwise for him to be annoyed specifically at a comment more or less acknowledging his own position (differences between ports). Often, people post demos or videos of demos and viewers go "ooh" without understanding the circumstances. In this case, it's kind of ironic, though, because the main culprit behind such misconceptions is TAS. Advanced ports usually make it obvious that there's a difference. If the player jumps, uses mouse look or shows rocket trails, it surely isn't a vanilla record and most people can tell immediately.

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myk said:

I wouldn't, in the context as a whole, including the bad English. He does value vanilla demos more (I don't object to that as I tend to agree) and a non-vanilla port would not show whether it's possible in Doom, prompting people to say it's not even possible.


I agree with the possible fact that he's confused, but without knowing that as the definite cause, the entire context, and this situation as a whole, is exactly why I made my conclusions earlier. If he's confused and taking in account of the language barrier, I wouldn't say anything further. However if he's not, then the statements about demanding an apology and being upset as a whole makes me irritated.

Valuing vanilla demos more is not the problem here. If his ONLY motivation was to show the trick, then it follows that it would not matter what source port is used. Anyone who is familiar with demos in general probably understands the basic engine mechanics of doom2.exe compared to source ports, and such a demo as this, I'm assuming, is geared towards that demographic. These people would certainly NOT say that it's "not possible," since the fact that bullets would only hit the sprite some of the time is probably common knowledge. And if it isn't, with Sedlo demos abound, I don't see how anyone can say things "aren't possible" in this day and age.

Now, if he also cared about outsiders watching this, then we come back to the issue of epeen and everything I more or less pontificated on above. So...you can see why I'm having some issues here.

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You should definitely not draw too many conclusions from ESL posts, especially highly negative ones.

Qaatar said:
Now, if he also cared about outsiders watching this, then we come back to the issue of epeen and everything I more or less pontificated on above.

Most people putting effort into something, be it level design, coding, participating in tourneys or speed running, do care about whether what they produce is appreciated, and "epeen," which is the derogatory term for a sense of pride in skill-based achievements, is perfectly valid in itself here. Delusions or misconceptions about "epeen" may suck, but "merited epeen" does not. The reason we recommend a laid back or friendly attitude is because of the possibility of cheating and the lack of final judges, and not because competitiveness is bad or detrimental. On the contrary, it's a prime motor for speed running.

If his ONLY motivation was to show the trick, then it follows that it would not matter what source port is used.

To anyone interested in Compet-n, it would be a huge waste to use a port and then fortuitously find oneself with what would otherwise have been a one-in-a-thousand Compet-n record.

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myk said:

You should definitely not draw too many conclusions from ESL posts, especially highly negative ones.

Most people putting effort into something, be it level design, coding, participating in tourneys or speed running, do care about whether what they produce is appreciated, and "epeen," which is the derogatory term for a sense of pride in skill-based achievements, is perfectly valid in itself here. Delusions or misconceptions about "epeen" may suck, but "merited epeen" does not. The reason we recommend a laid back or friendly attitude is because of the possibility of cheating and the lack of final judges, and not because competitiveness is bad or detrimental. On the contrary, it's a prime motor for speed running.

To anyone interested in Compet-n, it would be a huge waste to use a port and then fortuitously find oneself with what would otherwise have been a one-in-a-thousand Compet-n record.


The delineation between what is merited pride in achievement, and when it becomes conceit and self-aggrandizement, is unclear unless we take it into context. I never portrayed pride in a negative light, but when taken into THIS specific situation, then I feel validated. In this specific instance, the fact remains that HE came onto Doomworld, made a thread complaining about someone else who made a demo "naturally" in a different source port that is more conducive to the task. Not only that, but also demanded an apology. ESL or not, I don't think the thought to demand an apology and the overall negative tone of his post changes meaning in any culture or language.

I'm not here trying to engage in a fruitless exercise of psycho-analysis with you. I don't want to judge him too harshly, but without any further explanations from him, I also have to feel that his post is ridiculous in every way possible. You and I can argue about the specifics and nit-pick fastidiously about every single connotation in each other's posts, but the conclusion we all reached is that he overreacted. That does not change, no matter what other conclusions we have rightfully or wrongfully drawn. See the last sentence of my first post.

Edit: Pretty sure your original objection to my original post was that I misinterpreted his intentions. You explained that perhaps his original intention was just to show that the trick is possible in Doom2.exe, where it is more difficult. My position is that if he just wanted to show that the trick is possible, then ports do not matter. It does not have to be Doom2.exe, but in another port with an explanation that it IS possible in Doom2.exe.

If it does have to be Doom2.exe, then it follows that the only reason why he wanted to do it himself, TAS or not, is to show that HE can do it. Whether that's merited pride or not is irrelevant, your objection to my original post no longer exists. His motivations are no longer what you stated, no matter what we may think of his other motivations. I realize now that I'm just pettily expostulating with you, but you seem to enjoy doing the same.

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Qaatar said:
My position is that if he just wanted to show that the trick is possible, then ports do not matter.

That's not the case; he's evidently interested in competitive demos and Compet-n, so speculating in that sense (as per your very long post) is off context.

You and I can argue about the specifics and nit-pick fastidiously about every single connotation in each other's posts, but the conclusion we all reached is that he overreacted.

He did react badly, but I have posted to say others did the same thing, misinterpreting his post and getting on a ranting podium with that, without even having the bad English excuse.

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myk said:

He did react badly, but I have posted to say others did the same thing, misinterpreting his post and getting on a ranting podium with that, without even having the bad English excuse.


I'm not exactly sure where I misinterpreted his post, other than perhaps his entire meaning as a whole? If you are pointing to the fact that he did not understand what the statement "Too bad it's on legacy :)" means, then perhaps I did not make my original position clear. I just assumed that this is obvious, but apparently not: it does not matter HOW he misinterpreted that statement, the fact that he had to come onto Doomworld to make a thread about it, and have the gall to demand an apology, is atrocious behavior. Unless of course, he took the "too bad it's on legacy" statement as some direct affront towards his manhood or family members, I fail to see where an apology would be needed.

Ranting podium? Heh...pot calling the kettle black, sir (not in this thread though). :)

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Wow, I think we may have witnessed a rare sighting of the stereotype that is "the classic doom nazi" - one who doesn't respect port demos and refuses to adapt. It is unknown how many of them are left. ;)

But to termrork's credit, he did actually record a faster run himself with legacy, instead of just complaining. :)

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Qaatar said:
I'm not exactly sure where I misinterpreted his post, other than perhaps his entire meaning as a whole? If you are pointing to the fact that he did not understand what the statement "Too bad it's on legacy :)" means, then perhaps I did not make my original position clear.

I pointed to the misinterpretations in posts where I said "I don't think so," "I wouldn't," and "that's not the case" and I agree there's no point in him asking for apologies, but that is just silly rather than something that may cause irritation, because we all know that a Legacy demo is too different from a vanilla demo to compare them for speed running purposes. Let alone that TAS and regular runs aren't comparable either. With this in mind, getting annoyed at his annoyance is, much like termrork being annoyed at the incongruent Legacy demo, to make a cyberdemon out of an imp.

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First of all, thank you Paska, I hope you could understand my attitude even
a bit. Don't get demotivated by me doing speedruns, that's not what I wanted.
Don't take it personally, you surly didn't know what the run would mean to me.



myk and Qaatar before you analye my whole psychological problem I might answer
some questions, which could make it for you more understandable:


-------Why did I made the ty30-037 TAS run?

Well, I discovered the possiblility of uv tyson in this map about 2 years ago,
since then I tried to make it without tas, in my best months I made 300 runs
a week... So it was a lot of work trying this run
But after more than 1,5 years without succes I decided to do it with TAS.
Reasons:
1. I wasn't/aren't able to do this run without tas (only with legacy ;))
2. I wanted to show people how a UV Tyson run would theoretical work, so they can try it theirself
3. I thought a TAS run would get more attention than just saying to the community how it would work
4. I wanted to be the first who do a UV-Tyson map30 run

Epeen how you call it Qaatar (I had to look it up, I also don't know what ESL
should be) was never be a motivation for me doing speedruns, and especially not
this one.


-------What am I angry about?

Well first I was angry about Looper for doing this record, but then I asked myself
this question and I figured out, it wasn't Looper I am angry about, my anger
is because of the fact how everything turned out
The first 3 reasons why I made this run were there to see a ty30 run from
somebody else using a doom2.exe-compatible source port

Maybe you can imagine how much effort it took for me to creat this run,
not only the month in creating the TAS-run, also those thousands of thousands
tries I made only because of the fact I wanted to do it with doom2.exe

Maybe that's the reason why many people here don't understand my attitude,
you don't know how much time and passion I put in this run...
My brother, which saw me from time to time running map30 and writing the
TAS run was wondering how somebody can do this ( the legacy run ) and that it
should be removed imedeatly.

I mean, I made within 10 minutes a completly ty30-run with legacy, which
I havn't made in 1,5 years with doom2.exe


-------Did I understood the sentence "Too bad it's on legacy :)"?

Mh... looking backwards shows me, I didn't understood it completly write,
or I didn't want to understand it. I think I put too much ironic meanings into
this little sentence. I also thought Looper is somebody else who wants to
offend me directly with a different nickname.


Ok, I overreacted (a bit). But my problem which still exists
is that everybody runs with a different source port...
It feels wrong for me to compare speedruns from different source ports,
but it looks like I have to. In my opinion it is unfair for those who ran
in the nineties, maybe you can improve their runs with prboom, but do you also
can improve it with doom2.exe? Improve it with the same conditions they had?
That's why I would never improve a record which is made with doom2.exe
with a different source port.
Usually there isn't a huge gap how hard a lvl is with different sourc ports..
but in this case, there is one... for me about 10000 runs? or even more?

And this ty30-145 run affected myself, so this run brought the barell to
overflow... this run made me even more angry.

So what do you can advise me to do now?
Just take it as it is?
Stop playing doom?
Sending in a rather good ty30 run? (made it in 44s after another 10 mins trying it)

Please tell me

@vdgg
I wanted to express my own opinion, of course there could be people
who like his demo, but it was/is in my eyes ridiculous.

@Gez
Thank you for your sympathy :).
Have you understood my problem in any aspect?

@Fluffles
My problem with the run is how everything turned it out: a legacy run!?

@Csonicgo
true, completly useless

@xepop
I think I understood the sentence right :)

@Qaatar
True, I felt really good when I read the apologie

@Phml
don't take it so serious :), but what about strict barriers?
You can switch on seperatly doom2.exe-compatible demos and those other
source ports

@TimeOfDeath
I am from germany, I won't say anything further to this subject except of that:
Please don't come with this subject!
We are not talking about map31 or 32

Edit:
sorry to all those who had trouble with my attitude...
objective I would also say I overreacted a lot..
but subjective I can only say I reacted correct,
maybe you have to do so much for one run to understand that

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this thread evolved into a discussion about tomatoes, and how you pronounce it.

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It's about tomatoes and potatoes. Some people insist they are the same: t or p, what's the difference. Other say it doesn't matter which one: they taste the same so just eat them, okay? Obviously both of them are wrong.

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termrork - sorry, I did not know you're from Germany. I don't think you are a real nazi. :) I think it's good that you recorded a demo in legacy.

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wohhhhhay :D

I solute you

What a nice run, thank you a lot for doing this :)

it is awsome, also the coop demo with xepop, well done guys!

you rock :D

Congratulations Looper / Paska and xepop

I havn't found the possibility to spawn a Arch-Vile by going
Strafe left and go back :)

You made my day!

Good luck for your next project, and yeah, maybe also a doom2 tyson run :D in coop? Would be a crazy try :D but good luck, now it is officially possible

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