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RjY
anARCHy

Posts: 802
Registered: 05-02

Phml said:
Anyway, here's another UV speed for map15 in 1:38.

Beautiful!

Obvious question: why no SR50? Keyboard that doesn't like it when you press that many keys at once perhaps?

11-07-10 14:44 #

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Phml
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As dumb as it might sound, I've read the information and tried it many times and never got it to work (or maybe it is that I don't notice the speed difference and think it doesn't work). I also have indeed a cheap keyboard with wired keys so that might be the issue.

11-07-10 15:23 #

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dew
Feral Kid

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Phml said:
I've read the information and tried it many times and never got it to work (or maybe it is that I don't notice the speed difference and think it doesn't work). I also have indeed a cheap keyboard with wired keys so that might be the issue.

try the mouse sr50 then. i have strafe on binded to the right mouse button so i press just 2 keys like with regular sr40. when i press the rmb the mouselook locks and then moving the mouse in accordance to the sr40 direction -> sr50. the speed change is subtle but noticeable with longer straight lines in the run.

11-08-10 00:43 #

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Qaatar
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Phml said:
(or maybe it is that I don't notice the speed difference and think it doesn't work).

I have the same problem in that I never notice the difference in speed either, but I use it as much as I can anyways. Hell, I rarely even notice the difference between regular running and SR-40, and SR-40 is actually 28% faster, compared to the 13% between SR-40 and SR-50.

In my opinion, the easiest way to notice a difference is in the control. I have to angle my Doomguy slightly more to run in a straight line when I'm switching from SR40 to SR50, and that always tells me that I'm doing it correctly.

Edit: I suppose technically, the difference in speed between SR40 and SR50 is only slightly over 10%.

Last edited by Qaatar on 11-08-10 at 01:45

11-08-10 01:40 #

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Phml
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Mouse SR50 sounds good. I tried it on a test map and I can manage to jump over 192 pixels every once in a while, which is impossible with SR40, right ?

Still having a bit of trouble to manage it in actual gameplay. I actually go slower with it than without it on NG15, as I'm not accurate enough with my movement to set on the correct trajectory at one glance...

11-08-10 01:43 #

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Qaatar
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Phml said:

Still having a bit of trouble to manage it in actual gameplay. I actually go slower with it than without it on NG15, as I'm not accurate enough with my movement to set on the correct trajectory at one glance...

SR50 requires a lot of practice to use well. I personally rarely use it unless I know that I'll be running in a straight line for a sizable distance.

I know (and dew has mentioned this before) that some DM players bind the stafe-on and both turn left/turn right keys to one key, so all you need to do is press 3 keys (and some take it to even more extremes to press only 2). The problem with this is that turning accuracy is greatly hampered, so I wouldn't recommend it.

11-08-10 01:54 #

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Qaatar
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Phml said:
Is there a way to easily check if one is currently SR50ing or SR40ing ?

Not sure. The Doomguy looks the same on chasecam, so that's out. I know Hegyi made a utility (http://www.doom2.net/doom2/utilities/lmpdet3.zip) that analyzed the movements of players in lmps made from vanilla Doom and Final Doom, but doesn't recognize Boom lmps.

It singles out all movements made from SR40-SR49, and subsequently SR50, so if you have a decent % (over 5-10%), then you can be sure that you used SR50 intentionally. Some people have mice or mouse drivers that send SR41-50 signals when you're actually only using SR40, but those are usually lower than 5% of your total movement.

11-08-10 02:01 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

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Can you guys explain what SRXX means? I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

11-08-10 02:20 #

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Phml
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@Qaatar - tried the utility, but as you can tell from a guy who can't figure out how to SR50 by himself, I can't figure out how to run the thing either :) textfile just says "lmpdet.exe nameoflmp.lmp" so I assume it's some command line thing which has been explained to me a hundred times but I never quite get it. Drag-and-dropping a Doom 2 compatible lmp onto the executable gives me a MS-DOS window with some basic information, prompting me to press spacebar for more stats, but pressing spacebar closes the window.

@Use3D - thanks man. :)

@DoomHero85 - it's short for Straferunning 40 (the basic everyday straferunning) and Straferunning 50. Straferunning 50 uses more keys and doesn't let you move the camera around but it's slightly faster.

11-08-10 02:28 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

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how do you do SR50?

11-08-10 02:29 #

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Use3D
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DoomHero, this should help explain the move in detail:

http://doomwiki.org/wiki/SR50

11-08-10 02:31 #

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Phml
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As far as I understand it, you have to press strafe left (or right), forward, strafe on and turn left (or right) simultaneously (and run if you don't use autorun).

11-08-10 02:32 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

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i think i get it, so if I want to go left it's forward + strafe left + strafe on + turn left?

11-08-10 02:34 #

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Qaatar
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DoomHero85 said:
how do you do SR50?

Man...if I searched on google "straferunning"...three out of the first 10 sites go to Doom-specific websites that explain, with precision, how to use various straferunning techniques.

Alright...enough of me being an asshole. You press run (if you don't use autorun), forward, strafe left or right, turn left or right, and strafe-on.

For most people, it would be shift (if you don't use autorun), W, A or D, the left or right key, and Alt. Obviously, unless you are a keyboard-only player or have hands bigger than Wilt Chamberlain's, you're not going to be able to press all of that once. This means rebinding the turn left or turn right key to another key near WASD, or use what dew mentioned above and SR50 with the mouse.

Edit: This is all assuming that the player is right-handed, of course. I have no clue what left-handed players use.

Last edited by Qaatar on 11-08-10 at 02:47

11-08-10 02:35 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

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thanks.

11-08-10 02:36 #

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Qaatar
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Phml said:
@Qaatar - tried the utility, but as you can tell from a guy who can't figure out how to SR50 by himself, I can't figure out how to run the thing either :) textfile just says "lmpdet.exe nameoflmp.lmp" so I assume it's some command line thing which has been explained to me a hundred times but I never quite get it. Drag-and-dropping a Doom 2 compatible lmp onto the executable gives me a MS-DOS window with some basic information, prompting me to press spacebar for more stats, but pressing spacebar closes the window.

Are you using Dosbox?...and I think this thread should probably be split.

11-08-10 02:40 #

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z0diac
Green Marine

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Excellent discussion on strafe running. Gives yet another example of why using a mouse is superior to anything else.
I agree that the discussion should have its own thread, because this doesn't really fall under the topic of "misc. demos".

11-08-10 03:37 #

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dew
Feral Kid

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Phml said:
Is there a way to easily check if one is currently SR50ing or SR40ing ?

ingame? no, nothing that'd slap you in the face. it's not hard once you get used to it, so there's no reason i shouldn't believe i'm sr50'ing when i'm sr50'ing. :) a few giveaways: switching between sr40/50 makes you change direction a bit. if you run in a straight line, losing the sr50 lock will derail you by a small angle. in the mouse config this happens when you stop moving mouse and lose the turning addition. if you untap strafe, you start turning during sr40 of course.

this is why optimizing speedruns is so painful. changing directions suddenly isn't a continuous process, it's a quick jerk of the mouse to face a new course, then you lock into straight line movement again. the course corrections for this are also a good sign you actually do use sr50. you don't get the angle quite right, so you make a correction, but that's not quite right either, etc. you move in short lines, zig-zaging around the right course until you get it right, not unlike dampening oscillations. :) annoying human imperfection, but i'm sure many speedrunners know what i'm talking about.

as for analysing.. adamh's utility or girlich's lmpc can translate the playerdata into readable text, but apparently they don't recognize boom demos. read the matrix code then, neo. open your demo in hexa editor and look for these tics: 0032 3200 (forward right sr50) or 0032 CE00 (forward left sr50). the first double zero can be a different number if also shooting or using or switching weapons, but the last two zeros will always be zeros, that is turning. having a nonzero value there is a dead giveaway of tas. optimal sr50 parts should look extremely clean, consisting of long series of such tics without "artifacts".

looking at your ng15-135 it's easy to find those long free runs to keys/teleports. a lot of leftbound sr50 there, although not very clean. :) you can spot where you lost the sr50 lock and went to sr40 (32D8) or had to let it go for a directional change. almost no rightbound sr50, not your favourite strafing direction, eh? also a little freak accident happened...
0032D800
0032D800
00323200
0032D8FC
0032D8FE
i wtf'd, that's a rightbound sr50 tic in the middle of sr40'ing left. did you get a microspasm or what? :)

anyways, sorry for using you as a lab rat in this experiment. it was for greater good. :)

11-08-10 10:19 #

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Phml
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i wtf'd, that's a rightbound sr50 tic in the middle of sr40'ing left. did you get a microspasm or what? :)

So far what I've done is sliding the mouse left then raising it up quickly to put it back in middle (so it doesn't drop off the table!), so I keep moving the mouse left-right, left-right, and I know at some point I kept moving it right for half a second after putting it back to its original spot, and saw my doomguy strafing right.

... Reading through that mess of a paragraph I feel my english fails to depict the situation accurately, but anyway that is why my SR50 is inconsistent. Short 3-4 seconds bursts of sliding the mouse left then half a second spent moving the mouse back to its original spot.

Well, good to know I *was* using SR50 in that demo. Thanks for your help, dew. It all seems a bit complicated (to me) for such a slight speed boost, but it's interesting to learn.

11-08-10 11:53 #

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dew
Feral Kid

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Phml said:
So far what I've done is sliding the mouse left then raising it up quickly to put it back in middle (so it doesn't drop off the table!)

yes, that is the downfall of mousing sr50. on the other hand it isn't dependant on speed of your mouse movement, sr50 is either on or off. so slide slow, conserve your mousepad/table space. :)

11-08-10 11:59 #

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Phml
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I've tried to slide it way slower in a test map, but looking in a hex editor my SR50 is constantly broken. My mouse sensivity might be too low to do it that way.

11-08-10 12:11 #

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TimeOfDeath
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This has probably been thought of many times, but what about binding a turn key to the right mouse button? Then you wouldn't need to slide the mouse, and you could use a free finger on your left hand to activate 'strafe on' (I use alt with my thumb).

11-08-10 19:31 #

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Phml
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This has probably been thought of many times, but what about binding a turn key to the right mouse button?

PrBoom+ doesn't seem to want to let me bind a mouse button to anything save for fire, forward and strafe, from the menu options ingame. I suppose I could do it the other way around by binding alt to turn left (or right) and keep strafe on on mouse2. Will try, thanks.

Edit : yeah, I've bound turn left to alt (thumb) and turn right to shift (pinkie) and it seems to work alright. Gonna experiment with that setup for a while.

Last edited by Phml on 11-08-10 at 20:53

11-08-10 20:47 #

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Qaatar
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What I do is bind the right turn key to Q, and the left turn key to E. When I'm transitioning from SR40 to the right (W+D) into SR50 to the right, my middle finger presses W, my index finger presses D, my fourth/ring finger presses Q, and my thumb presses Alt. It's relatively ergonomic for me, but that could just be my own preference.

The same goes the other way (W+A); middle presses W, ring/fourth presses A, index presses E, and thumb presses Alt. I use autorun, but the pinky can easily press Shift in both situations.

I was never comfortable with using the mouse for SR50, so this might be a decent alternative.

11-08-10 20:53 #

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Phml
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What I do is bind the right turn key to Q, and the left turn key to E. When I'm transitioning from SR40 to the right (W+D) into SR50 to the right, my middle finger presses W, my index finger presses D, my fourth/ring finger presses Q, and my thumb presses Alt. It's relatively ergonomic for me, but that could just be my own preference.

It's probably the smartest way to do it.

Cheap keyboard with wired keys makes it impossible to work though (just saying for anyone that might be trying SR50 that way and find it not working, as I've been there and done just that :P ).

11-08-10 20:58 #

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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point

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I just got SR50 to work, unfortunately I find switching to it hard because of the direction change it causes. I am apparently not so good at lining myself up with an opening far away with SR 50. Learning to SR50 is like trying to play chord progressions on the piano :/

11-08-10 21:45 #

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kimo_xvirus
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Phml said:
Is there a way to easily check if one is currently SR50ing or SR40ing ?

Yes, there is! It's also very easy to check during playing if you play in a 4:3 aspect ratio
In a 4:3 resolution, SR50 moves you to the middle of the border of the screen. Here's screenshots in e2m9 to explain this, the first screenshot is from Sedlo's e2m9-006 demo
Screenshot #1
Screenshot #2
Notice in the 1st shot, the middle of the right border of the screen is nearly pointed at the door, it's the closest point in the door to the starting location if you'll be sr50ing.
The 2nd shot has a true perfect sr50 angle to the door, but actually you'll bump in the wall that's in front of the caco corpse if you keep going. So if you erase a little bit of that wall, that would be a more perfect sr50 angle to the door.

It works like this, try using a 4:3 aspect ratio if you aren't already, and look at your direction in the borders when sr50ing. you would be moving to 3 and 9 o' clock directions during sr50, sr40 would be a little closer to 12 o' clock.
So while sr50 is slightly faster than sr40, it also moves in a slightly different angle than sr40

Last edited by kimo_xvirus on 11-08-10 at 23:03

11-08-10 22:57 #

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Grazza
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I gave the angles and speeds in this post:

The 40 and 50 indicate the speed of sideways motion, in whatever units they are in which running forwards (without strafing) has a speed of 50. Thus:
SR50: 50 forwards + 50 sideways = 50 * SQR (2) at an angle of arctan (1)
SR40: 50 forwards + 40 sideways = 10 * SQR (41) at an angle of arctan (0.8).

i.e.:
SR50: roughly 141.4% of normal running speed at an angle of 45 degrees
SR40: roughly 128.1% of normal running speed at an angle of about 38.7 degrees

kimo's visual method is very useful to remember - I have used the "screen edge" mnemonic for many years when trying to line up a Strafe-50 run/jump. But note that if you are playing with a widescreen monitor with aspect ratio correction, it will be not the edge of the screen, but rather the end of the status bar.

Varying between strafe-40 and strafe-50 is a useful way to make slight changes of direction, though of course if you don't coordinate your actions well enough, you can end up making some absurd manoeuvres. With practice, that can be avoided though.

Don't try to work Strafe-50 into your play too extensively if you are only just starting out with it. Try to use it here and there, particularly when you have a long straight run through open space. Once you are comfortable with your control set-up, you'll find yourself using it to good effect more often, and with greater fluency. You'll probably also find that one direction (SR50 or SL50) feels more natural to you than the other. While being "ambidextrous" in this respect would sometimes be useful, even the best Doomers tend to do it mostly one way or the other.

One more tip: running at full strafe-50 speed makes you more likely to skip linedefs. That's great if you are trying to skip them, but sometimes you definitely want to trigger them (e.g. skipping an exit linedef can ruin an attempt in aggravating fashion). If you drop out of strafe-50 just a moment before reaching the linedef, you are much less likely to skip it.

Just a note about terminology:

SR40, SR50, SL40 and SL50 are from Uwe Girlich's LMPC program, and are the way it represents gametics where the player strafes left or right at these speeds. (e.g. SL40 = strafe left at speed 40; actually it's an acceleration rather than a speed, but let's not be too picky.)
GF50 means running forwards (also from LMPC). Strafe-50 is usually used to refer to running forwards and strafing, that is GF50 plus SR50 or SL50 (with strafe-40 meaning GF50 plus SR40 or SL40). Thus it is a bit of an abuse of language to use SR50 to mean strafe-50, but it generally doesn't cause any real confusion.

11-09-10 03:39 #

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entryway
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DoomHero85 said:
I just got SR50 to work, unfortunately I find switching to it hard

Did you try W + A/D + mouse2(strafe on) + move mouse left/right?

You should not press additional keys in this case. Mouse is already in your hand. Just press mouse2 button and move it slowly in strafing direction.

11-09-10 07:31 #