Teaming up - Inferno by Chris Lutz [done!!!]

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vdgg
MM2 maniac

Posts: 1165
Registered: 08-07

Some time ago I started a "nostalgia tour" - recording demos on old WADs which I consider great and which have little demo activity.
Starting from 1994 (Galaxia, Invade 2...) I reached 1997 so far. As for 1998, I decided to record, among others, Inferno (inf-lutz) E3M2 and E3M5 UV Max demos. Then this very thing occured to me:

We are (and I am) very individuals here at the demos forum. A few years ago demopacks recorded by teams were common, now they are extremely rare. I don't know how to join/form a team, but sure I would like to experience this sort of thing. Mutual advice, competition, a team product.

My first proposal is to join me and record more Inferno demos (Max and Speed in particular). Anyone?

Second, maybe someone else wants to do the same with their favourite WADs, but the task looks to huge for them to do it on their own? Make your teammaking proposals below, then :) Edit: or start a new thread

code:
        UV Speed                        UV Max                         Pacifist

-----------------------------   ---------------------------   E3M1 0:16 - xepop
E3M2 1:17 - The Green Herring   E3M2  6:58 - SAV88            E3M2 6:55 - xepop
E3M3 1:28 - dew                 E3M3  6:56 - Never_Again      E3M3 1:43 - dew
E3M4 2:57 - didierbertrand      E3M4 18:08 - didierbertrand   E3M4 6:05 - xepop
E3M5 1:39 - Paska               E3M5 13:35 - vdgg             E3M5  7:07 - Paska
E3M6 1:04 - dew                 E3M6  6:19 - dew              E3M6 1:04 - dew
E3M6s 1:52 - didierbertrand     ---------------------------   E3M6s 3:36 - dew
E3M7 1:01 - dew                 E3M7  6:57 - SAV88            E3M7 1:16 - xepop
E3M8 2:47 - Never_Again         E3M8 29:56 - Paska            E3M8 3:11 - SAV88
E3M9 2:54 - dew                 E3M9  8:28 - tatsurd-cacocaco E3M9 3:27 - xepop

        NM Speed                        NM 100

E3M2 1:18 - SAV88               E3M2  3:17 - SAV88
E3M3 1:49 - Never_Again         E3M3  2:55 - Never_Again
E3M4                            E3M4  2:58 - SAV88
E3M5 4:11 - Paska               E3M5
E3M6                            E3M6  2:39 - didierbertrand
E3M7 1:25 - Donce               E3M7  3:03 - dew
E3M8 2:17 - SAV88               E3M8  2:17 - SAV88
E3M9                            E3M9  3:29 - tatsurd-cacocaco

Other categories:
NM Speed + Pacifist E3M3 - 1:56 Never_Again

Final version: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?3ssj11bfr76o7x3

Last edited by vdgg on 02-04-11 at 07:23

12-25-10 21:50 #

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Grazza
Inventor of "Y Y" to quit

Posts: 11784
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Mostly these things were done fairly informally. There would be some demo interest on a wad, or a new wad would appear that was clearly very demo friendly. Someone would propose making a full demopack, and offer to organize and package the thing, and keep track of progress. If people were interested, then they would get involved and the thing would be completed. There wasn't really any question of "joining a team" - people would just contribute if they wished. It would be viewed as the project of whoever started and coordinated the effort, but generally would be a friendly and collaborative venture.

So I would suggest making your proposals for a demopack (including a rough timetable and any rules you'd like people to adhere to) and getting on with it. You've proved yourself to be a reliable kind of guy would does what he says, so if the project interests people, then it should happen.

12-25-10 22:05 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 2220
Registered: 05-08

i'm interested, count me in. i might try anything, but of course you'll get the best out of me if you point me to sr50 or trick heavy runs, or short, grindey maxes.

i'll take a look at inferno, although i can't promise anything worthwhile. :p

12-25-10 22:44 #

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vdgg
MM2 maniac

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In order to get the things going, I'll write down very basic rules and an initial schedule. I changed the thread title from "Teaming up" to "Teaming up - Inferno by Chris Lutz".

The WAD's main asset is the visuals, to be honest, and a complete lack of demos is only a bit surprising: the maps are massive, at least at first sight. Still, after seeing Hitherto's Ruinbros Maxes and after recording my own Ruinbros Maxes I got convinced there's no such thing as "demo unfriendly" WAD if it's a good-looking one and there's more than one weapon to choose from. In inf-lutz I think E3M2 and E3M5 are particularly cool thanks to frequent berserk fist usage if you want to get a good time.

Goal #1
There are 8 potential UV Speeds and 8 UV Maxes there, plus a Speed-Pacifist-Nomo-Max on E3M1. Let's fill up as many gaps as we can with quality stuff.

Initial Schedule:
By 12/27/2010
I'll have PM'ed 3 people with invitations. These are guys who, AFAIK, record demos on Ultimate Doom WADs quite frequently and may find this fun. If you're not among them, but you like the WAD and would like to contribute something, just write a post in this thread.

I'll make a new post with my initial maxes on E3M2 and (perhaps) E3M5. (I have no access right now to the computer the .lmps were recorded) in order to get more people interested and (hopefully) involved.

By 1/02/2011
By that day we'll know how many people participate and whether it is going to be a small project with little demos or something bigger (if it gets crowded, you may expect some friendly competition on certain map slots).

1/31/2011 is the deadline for submitting demos. It shouldn't take more than three days then to write the commentary :)

Rules:
Accepted demos: PrBoom, PrBoom plus with -complevel 3, Chocolate Doom, Vanilla. UV Speed and UV Max categories. Other categories: yes, if you convince us it would be cool to include your demo for some reason.

A person X decides to join and says: "I'm going to record a max on E3M4". Then the person X has 7 days to show something (may be a first exit or even a failed run if a map is tricky and they play aggressively, with low success rate). Other people send their feedback via PMs.

It is generally advised to take empty slots first. If you feel a certain demo is weak, tell it to the recorder, give them a chance to improve first :)

-----------------

Cool to see your post, dew. I'd love to see your demos and have mine reviewed by you, I only fear the WAD is the exact opposite of the ones you like to record demos on... but scroll down to a possible suggestion. Maxes? E3M2 will take 8 minutes at least and it's a short one. Tricks? I played this whole thing casually so far, I'll let you know if I find any (but I'm sure if there are you could spot them, too). So yeah, just take a look at those.
Suggestion: E3M2 Speed - looks like there's no unintended shortcut, but a Speed demo should be fun (about 1:30, my initial guess), mainly running and avoiding monsters - easy stuff.

12-26-10 01:58 #

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SAV88
Member

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Currently I took a half-month break from serious dooming. I'll continue recording demos after January 7, when I'll travel back to Germany and return to my most native Doom computer, with a more comfortable monitor, keyboard and chair.

I have many other difficult projects on my to-do list (first of all, redoing AV20 the "right" way, in 15:XX), but still it would be great fun for me to join you on Christopher Lutz's Inferno. I might do some maxes and/or speedruns for it. But usually I'm too lazy to work out a maxkill strategy on an unfamiliar map which doesn't have a demonstration demo (as I'm much more used to improve already existing demos/routes), so I'll only try some of these maps after there will already be first-entries for them.

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12-26-10 10:21 #

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didierbertrand
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Last edited by didierbertrand on 10-29-12 at 09:05

12-26-10 13:07 #

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vdgg
MM2 maniac

Posts: 1165
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SAV88 said:
Currently I took a half-month break from serious dooming. I'll continue recording demos after January 7, when I'll travel back to Germany and return to my most native Doom computer, with a more comfortable monitor, keyboard and chair.
I have many other difficult projects on my to-do list (first of all, redoing AV20 the "right" way, in 15:XX), but still it would be great fun for me to join you on Christopher Lutz's Inferno. I might do some maxes and/or speedruns for it. But usually I'm too lazy to work out a maxkill strategy on an unfamiliar map which doesn't have a demonstration demo (as I'm much more used to improve already existing demos/routes), so I'll only try some of these maps after there will already be first-entries for them.

Haha, it's the opposite for me, as I *love* being the first to record a demo on an "unfamiliar" map. We will see at what stage the project will be after January 7th. I may collaborate in such a way I may be the one to record a "demostration demo" if no-one dares to touch certain map (but it's hard to tell right now). Still, if - before January 7th - you have time just to watch the demos in progress, feel free to PM me (and others) sending your feedback.

didierbertrand said:
hi everybody
i've started speedrunning and sending demo to dsda since september
i think taking part to a demo team can be interesting, so For me it's OK.
let me know what you think.

I follow closely your 2002ADO demos, since it's one of my favourite WADs. As Grazza said, it is a bit informal, so you may first just play the maps randomly. Then you may pick for example "E3M6 Speed" - please report it here you're going to record such a demo. Don't forget to check your PM box regularly. And PM me if you have any more questions.

----------------------------------------
A note for potential Max recorders: if you're using kills/secrets HUD, please inform about it.

------------------------------------------

Here's my first maxes for E3M2 and E3M5. Recorded on my old computer, some old engine (no extended demo format - yikes!). They are rusty, pretty much like FDAs...

E3M2 - at the start some missions may be completed in any order - I mean red key / soulsphere / blue armor / chaingun. I still don't know which should be first for best speed results. I guess getting berserk ASAP would be a better idea than in the demo - shotgunning barons is boring to the watcher. Total time: 10:52, will try to get below 9 minutes.

E3M5 - this is a *very* initial stage max, like "erm... so, what am I supposed to do now?". Very slow. A shortcut to the BFG or at least plasma would be handy. Also, I don't know how to kill fast the imps surrounding an elevator (about 10 minutes into the demo) - any ideas? I have absolutely no idea what a good time should be - 16 minutes?? It's 22:11 right now.

Attachment: firstdemos.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

12-26-10 18:05 #

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didierbertrand
Loser

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Last edited by didierbertrand on 10-29-12 at 09:06

12-27-10 14:44 #

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Never_Again
knows his birth month

Posts: 917
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vdgg said:
I'll have PM'ed 3 people with invitations. These are guys who, AFAIK, record demos on Ultimate Doom WADs quite frequently

I have a pretty good idea who two of these might be. Don't tell me you got Maikl off the wagon! ;)

Thank you for the PM. Put me down for E3M3 in all categories, please. I already got a few demos for it, recorded yesterday - a NM, a NM100S, a Pacifist and a UV Speed. The last one is so trivial it might be a good idea to replace it with the Pacifist for the purpose of this demopak. The first two could be released separately if they don't fit in with this project's goals.

Funny that you should pick inf-lutz. A few weeks ago I was trying to FDA it, spent about 18 minutes wandering lost on E3M1 looking for something to kill then gave up in disgust. At that time I wasn't aware that it was what our Czech friends call a "tourist map". :P E3M3 is a lot of fun, though, so this project should be interesting.

One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is the filenaming scheme. I see you decided on i3nxmmss where x is the level number. You may want to add that to the rules, although I'd prefer longer descriptive filenames, e.g. "inf-lutz-3-sp-156", and named my files that way - but the issue is up to you to decide.

I didn't bother with a TXT since there will be a combined TXT for the final demos, here's the relevant info:

Recording setup:
engine: prBoom-plus v2.5.0.9-test
complevel: 3
renderer: software
res: 320x200 (scaled up 3X)
extended demo format: yes
no HUD, no kills/secrets counter, no uncapped framerate

For those wondering, about 95% of my prB+ demos are recorded this way.

Demos:
UV Speed - ~~1:56~~ 1:43
Pacifist - 2:17
NM Speed - 1:49
NM100S - 2:55

Comments:
A fine level. There are some annoyances, though, like the starting walkway (a bitch to speed through), lots of inescapable death pits, secret areas without the secret special ... I'll borrow a line from vdgg's comments to his D2R32 Max and say that the fact that the map's author argues with me and I still like the map proves there's something good in it. And I think I know what: it's the shit-headed Imp guarding the lift to the long hallway leading to the yellow key. He won't budge from his post and there's no way around him. That's what makes a Pacifist run here much more fun than any other category.
The Pacifist is the fourth exit (first being at 3:04), the others are all third exits. I spent a couple hours trying a NM Pacifist but kept dying at the lift with the Caco and two Imps. Even playing from a savegame with 200% health (an unlikely number in practice) and 200% armor I could only clear that hurdle about once in five attempts. Hmm, perhaps that's just something to try later.

edit: The UV Speed is certainly far from optimal (slower than the NM Speed even) but I must admit Pacifism monopolized my attention on this map. Once it starts to wear off I'll do a Max here.

edit2: the attachment still won't show up, perhaps Grazza and myk are still nursing Xmas hangover. Here is the ZIP with the demos, including an improved UV Speed.

Last edited by Never_Again on 12-27-10 at 19:37

12-27-10 16:38 #

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vdgg
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The first post modified, E3M4 is being recorded by didier (Max only), E3M3 by N_A. The latter even provided some exit times, but I don't see any demos to prove them :D

I wouldn't discard the possibility of including NM demos, so please share them as well. Pacifist is fine of course, I don't know these maps so well to tell whether Pacifists are trivial or impossible.

Filenames: name your demos as you wish. i3nxmmss is the way I would have named the demos if I had presented them as stand alone demos. I think the final demopack will have something like inf35max, inf33spd, following the good example of pluvdemo and many others (plxx-uv...).

12-27-10 16:59 #

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xepop
Junior Member

Posts: 202
Registered: 10-09

Yesterday I tried to come up with some idea for pacifist in e3m2. The imp that blocks the button in the berserk room is the problem. It is possible to maneuvre spectre/caco so that the imp angers them but it is a bit hard. I haven't looked other maps at all so if they feature similar rage inducing "mapper being jerk" areas, I might try all the pacifists or none. I can't promise anything but e3m2 should eventually fall in this battle :p (and I have 17s for e3m1 just for the sake of completeness)

12-27-10 17:15 #

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Never_Again
knows his birth month

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Posted the ZIP on my web page (link in my first post above). dew and xepop - glide alert on E3M3 (the bars by the yellow key).

12-27-10 19:40 #

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The Green Herring
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Right now, I will do E3M2 UV speed. In fact, I've already done so. I recorded this using vanilla Ultimate Doom v1.9. Details, of course, can be found in the text file.

I3N2-120.ZIP - E3M2 UV speed in 1:20

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12-28-10 07:05 #

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vdgg
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The Green Herring said:
...to which I was apparently not invited, despite actively participating in an Ultimate Doom demo-recording campaign. Oh well.

There's nothing against you participating, on the contrary! I somehow convinced myself your involvement would be absolotely unrealistic due to time constraints. My apologies.

------------------------------

I will post my specs later here, as well as my progress with maxes.
This post will be modified probably many times.

Recording setup (N_A's template)
engine: prBoom-plus v2.5.0.8
complevel: 3 (of course)
renderer: ?
res: 640x480
extended demo format: yes
no HUD, no kills/secrets counter, uncapped framerate

E3M2 Max - ~~9:21~~ / ~~8:51~~ / 8:38
E3M5 Max - ~~16:19~~ / 15:10

Attachment: vdgg-in5.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

Last edited by vdgg on 12-29-10 at 21:11

12-28-10 07:58 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 2220
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e3m2 uv-speed in 1:18

to quote my own textfile:
"This is a jaggedy run, but showcases a trick Eric missed, so I beat his time despite bumping every other obstacle in the way. I'd rather if he went back to the map and claimed it back using the SR50 jump, because adding this to the collection would be... uh, not a great start, heh."

i believe this is the only trick reasonably achievable. i experimented with a wiggleboost sr50 jump from the invis sphere platform with no success and some sort of trick to beat the final river without raising the bridge seems even less probable. so polishing this run should be safe. :)

12-28-10 11:24 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 2220
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ugh... forgot to attach the demo -_-

(also a small hint: keeping one or two imps alive in the trickjump trench can actually help you get a nice wiggle boost)

edit: reuploading the attachment, it had 0 bytes

Attachment: i3n2-118.zip
This has been downloaded 13 time(s).

Last edited by dew on 12-28-10 at 12:18

12-28-10 11:26 #

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didierbertrand
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Last edited by didierbertrand on 10-29-12 at 09:06

12-28-10 12:58 #

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vdgg
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Posts: 1165
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dew said:
reuploading the attachment, it had 0 bytes

Is it just me, or it still has 0? Don't say you're that fast on that map!

didierbertrand said:
here is my first exit for e3m4 uvmax, don't expect something spectacular!

A cool moment at 9:23 :) Yeah, these maps can take a lot of time to learn.

demo recorded with prboom+ v2.5.0.7, complevel 9( if i'm wrong with complevel please tell me )

As I wrote somewhere in the rules, -complevel 3, please! for your next demos. Just out of curiosity, I checked your -fast demo on 2002ado, E1M1, and it plays back fine with Chocolate-Doom. These inferno demos should play back the same way.

12-28-10 13:44 #

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dew
Feral Kid

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vdgg said:
Is it just me, or it still has 0? Don't say you're that fast on that map!

huh.. i can download it just fine. try this if it doesn't work for you.

12-28-10 14:06 #

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didierbertrand
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Last edited by didierbertrand on 10-29-12 at 09:06

12-28-10 16:04 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 2220
Registered: 05-08

e3m3 uv-speed in 1:28
e3m3 uv-pacifist in 1:47

sorry n_a, i didn't notice your demos until i recorded these. the speed is just grind until i got lucky with the lava room of death and the pacifist route might interest you. :)

Attachment: i3n3dew.zip
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12-28-10 17:09 #

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Never_Again
knows his birth month

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Even before watching the Pacifist I can tell it's a different route from mine - via the computer map passage, right? Funny, I recorded a 1:50 with that half an hour ago. Well, into the trash bin with that, as well as the new 1:38 UV Speed that was obsolete almost as soon as it was recorded. ;)
The good thing is that I discovered this morning that the lift shortcut to the red key was a delusion on my part and that realization led to a NM Pacifist at last. Second exit in 1:56. On to the Max recording now.

edit: watched it now. Like the way you land so easily next to the Baron without taking any damage, I couldn't manage that jump reliably. The rest was as expected except for the teleporter shortcut back to the wooden walkway - I hadn't thought of that. Good job.
Also fully agree with your UV Speed comments, I also found the winding staircase behind the yellow-key door evil.

Attachment: inf-lutz3-np-156.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

Last edited by Never_Again on 12-28-10 at 18:32

12-28-10 18:22 #

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xepop
Junior Member

Posts: 202
Registered: 10-09

Nomonsters demo just to show couple possible time savers for e3m2 speed.

Edit: Actually just one, as TGH had the latter one in his demo.

Attachment: i3m2nomo.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

12-28-10 19:11 #

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The Green Herring
Community Chest 4 Leader

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vdgg said:
There's nothing against you participating, on the contrary! I somehow convinced myself your involvement would be absolotely unrealistic due to time constraints. My apologies.

It's all right! Even with school and life intervening, I had time to record a few demos. I took a break during December, though, to finish a WAD that I was working on. Plus, some of the demos in my last idgames/ exploration batch were more than a bit frustrating. As you can see, though, I'm now available. :)

dew said:
e3m2 uv-speed in 1:18

to quote my own textfile:
"[...] I'd rather if he went back to the map and claimed it back using the SR50 jump, because adding this to the collection would be... uh, not a great start, heh."

You asked for it, and you got it — even if I got frustrated all over again.

I3N2-117.ZIP - E3M2 UV speed in 1:17

And here are my specs since two other people have given theirs already:

engine: Ultimate doom.exe v1.9
complevel: N/A
renderer: N/A
res: 320�200
extended demo format: N/A
no HUD, no kills/secrets counter, no uncapped framerate, nothing other than pure doom.exe features (and Novert)

Well, that was simple. ;)

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12-28-10 21:59 #

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xepop
Junior Member

Posts: 202
Registered: 10-09

e3m2 pacifist done :)

Attachment: i3p2-655.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

12-28-10 23:31 #

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didierbertrand
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Last edited by didierbertrand on 10-29-12 at 09:07

12-30-10 19:04 #

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didierbertrand
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Last edited by didierbertrand on 10-29-12 at 09:08

12-30-10 20:19 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 2220
Registered: 05-08

e3m5 nomo in 1:22
e3m5 uv-speed in 2:42
e3m5 trickaholic in 3:30 (ehhhhhhhh :p)

well, a bunch of first exits. i got really annoyed recording these, so i'm not really interested in improving them. *insert a tourettes-mode speech*

p.s.: i've inspected e3m6, didier's demo is nice and i hope he retains the spot, but i believe it's possible to glide through the bars leading to the final area cathedral... and then glide between two of the trees into the exit path. both of those are free unguided glides and after e3m5 i had no patience to really test their viability, but i think it's there. probably TAS material. :p

p.p.s.: i don't believe e3m8 is possible to max. fighting ten fucking cybers on a tiny stupid ledge with limited ammo... yeah, no.

Attachment: i3n5dew.zip
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12-31-10 22:47 #

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vdgg
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Wow, these cybers really suck. Although I've seen some seemingly impossible maxes done (Talosian Incident and Anima Zero), this one doesn't look too feasible. The only invuln is too far away. Same with radiation suit - the final few areas can be entered only once if I'm not mistaken.

The options I see here:
- Try to kill as many cybers as possible
- Skip the cybers
- Record UV Speed and call it quits

I watched i3n5 speeds and I can imagine they were painful to execute - ouch! Thanks for the demos, dew.

01-01-11 00:59 #

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