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xit-vono
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There are now only a few undone maps in requiem, mm2, mm, and av. Let's discuss which ones are likely to be possible and some possible strategies for them

Requiem lv14 : I believe this to be possible, but it would be the most difficult map I have done on nightmare.

Memento Mori lv09: I remember doing a TAS and being unsure if it was possible, but there's likely good methods to make it more reliable. This one definitely needs to be researched and will probably be possible.

Memento Mori lv28: I remember thinking this would be too hard. I never got around to making a TAS because I knew it wouldn't be a natural looking demo. There are many possibilities for this map, but it should still be extremely difficult.

MM2 lv10: Really difficult without SSG. I looked at this and decided it will likely remain undone.

MM2 lv14: I did a TAS demo, and it seemed like it might be possible. What do you think about this one?

MM2 lv19: I also did a TAS demo here, and it seemed to be pretty hard too, but likely possible.

MM2 lv22: I haven't really looked at this one.

MM2 lv25: I did a TAS and thought it would be extremely difficult, but maybe possible. SAV88 believes it's somewhat easier than my judgement.

MM2 lv28: I tried the beginning with savegames, and it should be possible to get out with the key. I haven't looked at the rest of the
map though.

MM2 lv29: I haven't really looked at this one.

Alien Vendetta lv13: I haven't really looked at this one.

Alien Vendetta lv14: With lots of health/armor on this map, it may well be possible. I would need to do some research here.

Alien Vendetta lv16: I briefly looked at this one, and haven't done enough to decide if it's possible.

Alien Vendetta lv27,lv28,lv29: I haven't really looked at this one.

I don't have any comments to make on hr/class ep.

Old Post 01-23-11 22:09 #
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vdgg
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Well, I'm almost an "anti-expert" when it comes to NM demos, but I know some maps well, especially from MM2, so this is what I can tell:

MAP10 - UV -fast was already pretty challenging. The part to the YK - only if you have luck with no cacos resurrecting, don't know what next? I always judged this one as "impossible", but...

MAP14 - agreed with your judgement in your TAS txt file

MAP19 - should be the easiest one from the undone ones!

MAP22 - the beginning should be really hard, but *if* you can make it to the megasphere, it should be possible due to plasma and BFG

MAP28 - impossible because of monsters resurrecting near the central lift, entering the lift and blocking it at certain floors. Even -respawn looks impossible for me.


Of course, I may be well wrong, as I was with "almost impossible" m215 which scared the shit out of me on plain UV Speed :-P

Old Post 01-23-11 22:27 #
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SAV88
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Like Xit Vono, I'm also addicted to record Nightmare demos for PWADs, and I played many of the mentioned levels with savegames in the near and far past. Here are my comments for some of them:

Requiem MAP14 -- already many years ago I felt it's by far the hardest NM level in Requiem, and vastly superior in difficulty to TN09 or HN13. But still, desperate work and clever strategies allow a human perform this super-monstrosity of a Nightmare run. I watched your failed attempt, and it showed me that with enough motivation you'll finish this grand challenge sooner or later.

MM MAP28 -- the hardest level in the wad (especially on NM), and Heretic's shortcuts from his 30MM2707 won't help you in a real demo. But I earned some experience in playing this map with "turbo monsters" when doing my 13:39 UV-Fast demo, so I might try it on NM in the future. It seems more pleasant to play than RN14, with more health and freedom.

MM2 MAP28 -- one of my beloved levels, and next time I'll look how it plays on skill 5. I feel it's possible in one or another way.

As for Hell Revealed, there are also quite a lot of holes left. I'm sure that levels 5, 6, 9 can be humanly done faster than in Peo's ancient TAS demos. They should be easier than my HN13, HN14, HN16. And MAP12 is feasible in under ONE FOURTH of Peo's TAS time.

The start of MAP18 is a big shame. Due do the specialities of monster reaction on NM, the cyberdemon doesn't teleport out (unlike on UV-Fast), and instantly kills you, making the level almost physically impossible on NM. The rest of the level is relatively easy, and HR18 is very possible to finish in "alternate Nightmare" mode (UV with -Respawn + -Fast) (even though it won't give you double ammo).

HN25 is pretty easy for a Hell Revealed Nightmare run. And even MAP11 is also more or less feasible. MAP17 seems way too brutal on NM to play humanly (even compared to RN14!), and I think it only can be done with the glide past the red bar (plus the red key grab, preferably). Hopefully there's someone who can do both of these tricks easily (I can't).

And I would say that 7 and 23 are the "most impossible" ones :-)

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Last edited by SAV88 on 01-24-11 at 15:49

Old Post 01-23-11 23:20 #
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j4rio
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whole plutonia run in nightmare

haha

Old Post 01-24-11 00:06 #
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Looper
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I will try MM2 LV14. Seems to be more easy if you don't go for secrets (watched the TAS). With yellow key glide I would say it is "easy" but I can't do the glide to the other way (well, I can but who wants to watch 1 hour of someone trying to glide?).

Definitely atleast possible.

Old Post 01-24-11 01:28 #
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xit-vono
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Ok, I have looked at hr05, and I believe it to be fairly simple, so I will try to complete it soon.

Old Post 01-24-11 07:09 #
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vdgg
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I forgot one thing about m222 which makes it actually worth a try. The exit is blocked by a yellow key bar, I've never seen a glide there but if there is one, it would make the run 20 x easier (I just realized normally you'd have to cross the baron/revenant ledge 3 times and cell ammo is not conveniently placed, so normal route is probably pure hell despite heavy weapons at your disposal).

m228 - my judgement was based on a simple fact that on skill 4 if I don't kill imps/cacos on platforms leading to four towers, the following things occur:
- cacos enter the lift, when you lower it and enter it, they attack you from above and you don't even see them
- imps stand on the edge between their floor and the lift and the lift cannot rise
and on skill 5 these monsters will surely appear and behave the same way (only faster)

Old Post 01-24-11 09:35 #
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SAV88
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xit-vono said:
Ok, I have looked at hr05, and I believe it to be fairly simple, so I will try to complete it soon.


Good luck! BTW, if MAP25 can interest you, here's an old and slow HN25 demonstration in 1:00. I did it in a REALLY far past (when I was a child), and the demo is so unskillful that I don't even attach a textfile to it. Should not be uploaded to DSDA. Easily beatable for you.

Attachment: hn25-100.zip
This has been downloaded 15 time(s).

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Old Post 01-24-11 09:55 #
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SAV88
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I just finished MM2 MAP28 on NM with savegames (playing in a "humanly", non-TAS way, concentrating on defense more than on speed), in 7:02. And I realized it's indeed possible, while still really tough. I think it's harder than TN09, but most likely easier than RN14. The main ideas are combining defensive and aggressive approaches wisely, as well as not forgetting to pick up rockets and cells on your way.


vdgg said:
and on skill 5 these monsters will surely appear and behave the same way (only faster)


No, the monsters around the lift actually aren't a huge disaster on NM. They are faster in attack, but slower in movement. After visiting four towers, all you need is to pick up health/ammo powerups in the secret room, go to the red key (the safest way to pick it up is to run straight to it and then back to the lift) and then ascend to the top. With some luck, cacos and revenants won't block the lift more than 0-2 times.

The end is manageable if you have well over 100% health and some blue armor after entering the final teleporter.

EDIT: A potentially slower but somewhat easier strategy would be saving the invulnerability for rushing through the final room. To reach the exit before running out of invuln, you must lower the top teleporter beforehand, then run back down to the fourth tower, pick up the green sphere, and quickly run to the end. Normally, this way you'll have *just* enough time to get into the exit pit, dead or alive :-) But if you are lucky, the baddies on edges will keep the lift opened for you when you go back to the top. In this case, just clean up these edges and rise on the lift. And if nothing wrong happens, you still will be invulnerable when entering the exit.

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Last edited by SAV88 on 01-24-11 at 17:35

Old Post 01-24-11 11:48 #
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xit-vono
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On m228, what weapons should I take from the beginning area. I think plasma should be pretty easy to get, but SSG and rockets may be a problem. Are they necessary for the second part?

Old Post 01-24-11 17:50 #
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SAV88
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xit-vono said:
On m228, what weapons should I take from the beginning area. I think plasma should be pretty easy to get, but SSG and rockets may be a problem. Are they necessary for the second part?


There are not enough cells to blast through everything with plasma rifle, and many heavy monster groups later in the map are only practical to kill with rocket launcher. And without SSG you'll run out of rockets and cells. Moreover, the somewhat dangerous SSG room also holds the necessary armor. But the heavy weapon dudes in that room can definitely be shot down with clever maneuvering, careful aiming and some luck. Getting RL is not much of a problem: just hide behind a corner after releasing the hellknight, finish him with SSG, take the RL and blast monsters on the other side.

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Old Post 01-24-11 18:05 #
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xit-vono
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I can now do both glides for m214, so I will be looking at a nightmare demo for that one. Nightmare secrets should be possible too, although that will probably be for another day. My problems are that it's really tough to get the blue armor, and that doing the glide with monsters around is annoying. I will consider doing it without armor, or finding a better way to get the armor.

Old Post 01-26-11 16:21 #
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Looper
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xit-vono said:
I can now do both glides for m214, so I will be looking at a nightmare demo for that one. Nightmare secrets should be possible too, although that will probably be for another day. My problems are that it's really tough to get the blue armor, and that doing the glide with monsters around is annoying. I will consider doing it without armor, or finding a better way to get the armor.


I'm working on it... yesterday made it to the exit room

Wohoo, made it :)

Last edited by Looper on 01-26-11 at 17:01

Old Post 01-26-11 16:25 #
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xit-vono
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I've looked at an14 and I think I'm going to mark this one as impossible. I think there's too many respawning monsters and it's impossible to keep things cleaned up.

Old Post 01-28-11 01:38 #
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xit-vono
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Hi, I have decided to take another look at mm2 map10, and I think this one may have some hope. I just realized that there is a secret where one can hide, while using the door as a shield to kill all the cacodemons. I will continue to research this one and hopefully make a TAS demo. SAV88, how are things going on map28? It may be helpful for you to make a TAS demo to show us the methods that you would use to beat this map. In the meantime my first priority will be rn14, which I believe I have made some progress on.

Old Post 02-10-11 04:14 #
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xit-vono
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I completed the TAS demo. Does anyone want to give this a try? I hate this map.

Attachment: m210nmx.zip
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

Old Post 02-10-11 05:09 #
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SAV88
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xit-vono said:
SAV88, how are things going on map28? It may be helpful for you to make a TAS demo to show us the methods that you would use to beat this map. In the meantime my first priority will be rn14, which I believe I have made some progress on.


Well, I'm currently unused to record TAS demos, and at the moment I'm busy with just another hardworked UV Max, but it was really fun to perform your request. Demo is not TAS-quality, but it wasn't meant to be optimized. It's just a proof that this map can be humanly finished on skill 5 in under 10 minutes. It demonstrates my second strategy, and shows that the end is possible even with bad luck. But maybe we can find some reliable way to make the lift opened during the invulnerability.

58 segments;
No slowmotion;
No auto-strafe50.
Time: 7:27.

Attachment: m228nmx.zip
This has been downloaded 26 time(s).

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Last edited by SAV88 on 02-10-11 at 10:51

Old Post 02-10-11 10:35 #
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Rizera
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Just for the record, were most of Hell Revealed 2 deemed as impossible on NM? I see a lot of late maps as undone on Doomedsda like HR2 MAP15 and MAPS21 and on...A lot of them, especially MAP24 and MAP15 look amazingly hard to me.

Old Post 03-24-11 01:13 #
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Hock
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Im pretty sure that hr map 18 is impossible on nightmare

Old Post 03-24-11 02:43 #
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SAV88
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Currently, only two HR2 levels are done on Nightmare -- 1 and 30. But I would say that most of the remaining ones are doable, though not many players yet are interested in conquering long unconventional levels on skill 5.

MAP24 might be insanely hard, but 15 seems fair enough for me. I also finished level 17 with savegames, and I'm convinced it's definitely possible in a real demo (even without Xepop's shortcut glide).

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Last edited by SAV88 on 03-24-11 at 09:34

Old Post 03-24-11 09:27 #
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