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Rizera
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Hi guys!

Damn, it's been one week without playing Doom now, and I'll only be able to play it again next week! So anyways...what are your plans regarding Doom speed demos?

Mine are:
Will surely record in an upcoming future:
HR2Final.wad MAP15 UV-Max in less than 10 minutes
Beat Plutonia MAP26 UV-Max record
Beat Plutonia MAP29 UV-Max record
Beat Alien Vendetta MAP25 UV-Max record

Dream demos:
Beating Okuplok's Sunder MAP14
Beating stx-vile's Doom2.wad MAP29

See ya!

__________________
You are very welcome to watch my Doom speed demos: http://www.youtube.com/user/1ntru

Last edited by Rizera on 01-15-12 at 19:04

Old Post 04-16-11 04:45 #
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Ironically, Daiyu issued a "challenge" to me a few days ago regarding p229, asking if I could bring the Max record down below 15 minutes. I wasn't sure if that was possible, especially considering you had already improved upon the original time by a large amount; but, once I get back to recording again, I suppose that it will be my first priority.

Otherwise, before I stopped playing over a month ago, I was in the process of improving upon every single Max record for Speed of Doom. I was up to MAP06, having improved each of Tatsurd's records by specific half minute time brackets. In other words, if the current record is 2:00, I would be satisfied by doing a 1:59. If the current time is 1:59 however, I would have to record a 1:29 at least. The methodology was a way to combat my obsessive compulsion in regards to demo perfectionism, as I would set a goal in the next lower time bracket, and stop recording if I reached that goal, no matter if the time could be improved further or not.

Old Post 04-16-11 05:16 #
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Grazza
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I tried to improve upon my old tv10-037.lmp (TVR! map10 UV Speed). I couldn't even get the trick to work once, and now have a sore finger.

I might try some more, but will need to study how the hell I got the trick to work in the first place.

Beyond that, no plans.

Old Post 04-16-11 07:14 #
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Memfis
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I was impressed by 1996 wad 'Back To Hell', and now I want to record UV-Max demo for every its map. Currently I'm studying E3M3 - big city map with a lot of useless buildings to visit.

Also, I am waiting for the final releases of 'Plutonia Revisited' and '1994 Tune-Up Challenge'. For PR I want to record on MAP09, and for Tune-Up - MAP18, MAP19, maybe something else.

Old Post 04-16-11 08:11 #
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dew
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todo list, all maxes:
dbimpact m4, m6 - both are greatly non-linear and i think i've built good routes
prcp map13, 17, then maybe 26

long term projects:
sod map17 and 27 uv-speeds, had some progress in both, but it's rough
rjspace9f uv-max with exit time around 21:30
pl2e2 speed movie, got to map18 once already, but that one's a massive roadblock

Old Post 04-16-11 10:52 #
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vdgg
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dew said:
pl2e2 speed movie

No big surprise for me, still nice to hear my hunches are confirmed.

I had that project of recording demos on good, forgotten WADs from the past. Started with 1994 WADs, I finished with 1997.
I don't know if the 1998 bundle will ever be released... real-life, less motivation than before, etc.
Initially it would contain some of the following: insrtion, inf-lutz, phobos, end2, ros, maybe the chord series and some more. At least inf-lutz was done as a community project and end2 has many demos recorded by didierbertrand, so I may consider it partially done :)

Old Post 04-16-11 13:54 #
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Rizera
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Added new stuff.

Old Post 04-17-11 07:19 #
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J4's new demo for h225 reminded me of Belial's old demo for HR MAP24. I remember Belial commenting in the text file that the time could easily go below 8 minutes. I don't suppose if any of you would like to try?

:)

Old Post 04-19-11 05:33 #
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SAV88
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1ntru said:
Will surely record in an upcoming future:
TNT.wad MAP29
d2reload.wad MAP29
SODfinal.wad MAP28
HR2Final.wad MAP15 UV-Max in less than 11 minutes
Pl2.wad MAP29 in less than 20 minutes (less than 15 minutes is basically impossible, I think...maybe even if TASing)



Great plan! All these long, thrilling levels belong to my favorites, and I'm looking forward to watch your fascinating demos on them. Same for dew's and Memfis' PRCP stuff.

But I have to disagree about the "time limit" on PL2 map29. These large, action-filled maps always have a large margin for increasing the monster killing efficiency, especially when there is a BFG (because a thorough maximization of the BFG damage is a radical time saver). I think a TAS demo for this map (if played as tightly as jongo's PL01-123 or Andy Olivera's ET11-539) will be under TEN minutes.


1ntru said:
Dream demos:
Beating Belial's Deus Vult MAP02
Beating Never_Again's TNT MAP21
Beating Okuplok's Sunder MAP14
Beating stx-vile's Doom2.wad MAP29



Yep, I have always considered Vile's MAP29 demo to be spectacular even for his masterful ability. Strange that his LV29-405 and Anders' LV25-129 haven't been nominated for Cyber Award 2003.

But while his run is really smartly played, there are still possibilities to bring it down to 3:XX. For example, you can kill the mancubus near the last lift with SSG (without losing neither time nor cells), and use plasma on both of the final two barons.

Belial's and Okuplok's demos (for DV02 and SU14) are also excellent, but they have more margin for improvement. And EV211156 shouldn't be that hard for you to beat by 2 minutes or so.

________________

As for me, my near-future plan is realizing some of my "dream demos" -- optimizing some UV Max, UV-Fast, Nightmare runs on various difficult epic levels. First of all, MM2 MAP28 -- yes, still busy with it, as I'm aiming for a MUCH better time than 11:XX (which I have originally planned). I completely recalculated my sequence of relocations, my ammo management, etc. After returning to Germany (on May 1.), I'll be more free than before, and will work on it more actively.

But in-between spending hard work on "dream demos", I may keep producing some short, spontaneous, lazy, "easy-fun" runs :-)

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My Doom speed demos, old and new

Old Post 04-19-11 09:55 #
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j4rio
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Qaatar said:
J4's new demo for h225 reminded me of Belial's old demo for HR MAP24. I remember Belial commenting in the text file that the time could easily go below 8 minutes. I don't suppose if any of you would like to try?

:)



Wanna know something funny?

I have never played hr, just watched a bunch of demos and saw Radeg's improvable 19. Besides that, I know exactly no other map. I also don't know totally any map of doom (1) and maybe over half of doom2. I've always played only plutonia since forever, and then later, much much MUCH later (summer last year) tnt, but that's about it.

Old Post 04-19-11 13:51 #
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Rizera
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SAV88 said:


Great plan! All these long, thrilling levels belong to my favorites, and I'm looking forward to watch your fascinating demos on them. Same for dew's and Memfis' PRCP stuff.

But I have to disagree about the "time limit" on PL2 map29. These large, action-filled maps always have a large margin for increasing the monster killing efficiency, especially when there is a BFG (because a thorough maximization of the BFG damage is a radical time saver). I think a TAS demo for this map (if played as tightly as jongo's PL01-123 or Andy Olivera's ET11-539) will be under TEN minutes.
]


You certainly do know how to keep someone going. :)

Anyways, I'm basically sure that under TEN minutes, even if a perfect TAS is made, is not possible. If you consider that PL29 tas by Peo was almost 6 minutes. P229 is a level which is really low on ammo and you have to deal with 8 cybies, 2 spidermasterminds (this I know by mind) countless revenants, pain elementals, barons and arch-viles (one of which is really hard to hit). Still, you have to backtrack a lot of times. Not only that, the "actors are infinitely tall" will get on your way a lot in this level. I'd have to see a TAS demo to believe it but you certainly know speedrunning better than I do.


I'm not sure if you watched my P229 demo but my BFG usage there, especially against the cybies, was imho pretty good. I might try to get it somewhere near 15 minutes but damn, it will be hard. Regarding the other demos, will. I just wish I had time to try them more. Last time I was able to play Doom was 10 days ago. :(
________________



SAV88 said:
But in-between spending hard work on "dream demos", I may keep producing some short, spontaneous, lazy, "easy-fun" runs :-)


Just like my last demo, Manor.wad (-:

Old Post 04-20-11 01:45 #
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SAV88
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Peo's PL29-544 is far from a "perfect TAS" -- his movement and damage distribution are inefficient for today's standards. Many of his TASes (including UV Maxes) got beaten by various human players.

Modern tool-assisted optimization can reach a time far below a "humanly possible" result. For example, Anima's 1:48 max for MAP01 of Deus Vult II looks near perfect, but Alexander's TAS record is 1:03.

On long maps with BFG (like PL2-29 and not PL1-29), the difference between "human optimum" and "true optimum" is particularly great, because the tool-assisted luck-manipulation allows to produce long, humanly unfeasible sequences of extremely powerful BFG shots (as one fully effective blast can kill a whole spiderdemon, or 3 barons, or 5 mancubi).

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Old Post 04-20-11 07:14 #
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Rizera
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You are basically always right when it comes to timing but I would have to see this to believe it. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever happen. So few people record TASes of the quality we mentioned above...

Last edited by Rizera on 04-26-11 at 07:28

Old Post 04-26-11 02:39 #
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I think the amount of work a TAS Max demo of that quality entails is mind-boggling. I'm too lazy to even learn how to do segmentation on pr+, and that's pretty much the easiest TAS one can pull off outside of pressing "+" and "-" or turning on perm SR50 -- I can't even fathom what kind of effort is required to build a quality demo using a replay editor. It's why they are so rare - VERY few people have the time and energy to spend on such endeavors (monster manipulation and weapon usage optimization are by far the hardest to perfect in demo recording), especially considering the fact that TAS demos, by nature, are less prestigious than regular ones - no matter the quality. As much as we'd like to think otherwise, we record demos, at least partially or subliminally, for that very factor.

Until someone can conjure up a demo recording program or editor that can eliminate the pseudo-RNG damage factor in Doom, and thus guarantees maximum damage per shot, I don't think we'll ever see many TAS Maxes. TAS Speeds are much more simple, since we don't have to control that pesky factor of damage that essentially increases the amount of tedium exponentially.

As for p229...under 10 minutes is certainly possible if left in the hands of Andy or Jongo. I fully agree with SAV here.

Old Post 04-29-11 13:13 #
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Okuplok
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sorry for bump

future demos

nochance uv-max
hr2 map32 uv-max under 10 mins
holyhell map05 uv-max
sunder map12 nightmare
doom64 d2all using doom64ex


dream demos

holyhell map05 reality

beating my sunder demo shouldnt be a problem for you 1ntru, you are a strong doomer :)

Old Post 09-03-11 00:29 #
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
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And here's my future plans:

Hell Revealed 2 map26, 07, 20, 21
Hell Revealed map12, 15, 16
Speed of Doom map02, 11, 13
Plutonia 2 map17 and 21
Kama Sutra map18
TNT map13 UV-Fast

etc.

Also my dream demos:

Redone of TNT map18 and 09
Redone to make a valid UV Max run of TNT map17
Redone of Speed of Doom map31 and 12
Redone of Vile Flesh map07
Redone of Plutonia 2 map31
Redone of Scythe 2 map14
Redone of 2002ADO E4M1

etc.

Old Post 09-03-11 03:07 #
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xit-vono
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My current plan is to work on rn14 some more. If I get bored of that I may do some stuff for TNT such as extending my 02tn, or nightmare secrets for episodes 2 and 3. I could also try plutonia movies.

Old Post 09-03-11 03:23 #
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Ancalagon
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newgothic map11 max (beating j4rio's time), map14 in under 20 mins and map15 in 11:xx
sod map32 max (beating tadsurd)
cc3 map29 max (beating blob)

not a long list

Old Post 09-03-11 05:38 #
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
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Ancalagon said:
newgothic map11 max (beating j4rio's time), map14 in under 20 mins and map15 in 11:xx
sod map32 max (beating tadsurd)
cc3 map29 max (beating blob)

not a long list



Wow, all are hardest maps here! Anyway good luck for that! You can actually try on SOD map28 too!

Old Post 09-03-11 06:49 #
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cannonball
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Well these are the maps I will try and do
2002 A Doom Odyssey E4M2*, E3M6, E3M8, E4M3 (I'm sorry I've been so slow on E4M2 I don't know why I'm so slow on that map)
2002 A Doom Odyssey Episode 1 uv max - Got 35:04 on my first attempt ages ago, only 4 seconds off the record, got to do it really.
Vile Flesh Map25 - The record can be brought down by a couple of minutes I think with being more aggressive in the red key room (2 cybies) being key to this.
Perhaps some other untouched vile maps (I think 24, 27, 28 and 29 have not been improved)

Last edited by cannonball on 09-03-11 at 10:11

Old Post 09-03-11 08:36 #
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dew
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guess i should try that pl2 ep2 movie i promised, eh? :)

Old Post 09-03-11 09:13 #
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j4rio
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Nothing. NG is boring me already and most of stuff I wanted to do was just floostreiting. Might do rest of HH except map 5 (the whole damn thing).

That ng11 is quite old anyway, should be easy to beat. ;)

Old Post 09-03-11 09:25 #
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vdgg
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cannonball said:
Vile Flesh Map25 - The record can be brought down by a couple of minutes I think with being more aggressive in the red key room (2 cybies) being key to this.

Good luck to you. I didn't try the whole map yet, because I didn't learn it, but I remember trying this particular area with saves about 2 months ago. Shoot BFG at close range to the first cyber as soon as the door opens, then escape to the bottom, this is what I tried. The survival rate was extremely low for me, though, 10%?


vile map 24

DeDo wasn't particularly happy with his 11:28 demo and one can see a few inaccuracies there, but... his time seems unbeatable for me after quite a number of tries. I just got one legal exit (12:37) and maybe 8 times I didn't have 100% kills. Interestingly, he didn't grab the blue armor, which costs maybe 1 second and is extremely useful. A very lucky and very efficient demo by DeDo, I would say.

Both maps 24 and 25 are fantastic and really worth trying, I didn't mean to discourage you :)

Old Post 09-03-11 10:17 #
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xepop
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map03 18s (easy if got time and interest (19.2x came pretty quick months ago (let's put another pair of brackets to make it harder to read (lisp anyone?)))) and undone pacifists (don't hold your breath.)

Damn you dew and your lazy ass! But really, what's with the dosbox? I think it works pretty straight outta box nowdays, just throw in novert and if you have mouse accel problems then those are easily solvable.

Last edited by xepop on 09-03-11 at 11:47

Old Post 09-03-11 11:34 #
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dew
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xepop said:
map03 18s (easy if got time and interest (19.2x came pretty quick months ago (let's put another pair of brackets to make it harder to read (lisp anyone?)))) and undone pacifists (don't hold your breath.)

i was thinking about lv03-018 sometimes last year, but i'd probably grind my teeth away from the dosbox torture.

Old Post 09-03-11 11:40 #
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cannonball
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vdgg said:

Good luck to you. I didn't try the whole map yet, because I didn't learn it, but I remember trying this particular area with saves about 2 months ago. Shoot BFG at close range to the first cyber as soon as the door opens, then escape to the bottom, this is what I tried. The survival rate was extremely low for me, though, 10%?



I played this with iddqd and first time I 2 shot killed the cybers in the red key area and didn't get hit, maybe it was luck or whatever else. Tommas Kollar's demo had a lot of bfg and rocket waste by being conservative in that room. If you can kill both cybies then well it's bfg/rocket spam the rest of the way. Under 10 minutes should be possible.


vdgg said:

DeDo wasn't particularly happy with his 11:28 demo and one can see a few inaccuracies there, but... his time seems unbeatable for me after quite a number of tries. I just got one legal exit (12:37) and maybe 8 times I didn't have 100% kills. Interestingly, he didn't grab the blue armor, which costs maybe 1 second and is extremely useful. A very lucky and very efficient demo by DeDo, I would say.

Both maps 24 and 25 are fantastic and really worth trying, I didn't mean to discourage you :)



Map24 is a beautiful level, i might do a demo for this anyway, even if I don't get the record :)

Old Post 09-03-11 12:07 #
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Phml
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Seeing as there's a lot of skilled slaughterplayers in there, I was wondering if anyone looked at/was planning on recording maxes on HR map22 and map24? The demos on these two levels aren't bad by any means, but I think there's room for improvement, and that several doomers in this topic have what it takes to pull it off.

Old Post 09-03-11 13:49 #
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SAV88
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cannonball said:
Map24 is a beautiful level, i might do a demo for this anyway, even if I don't get the record :)


I personally don't see much interest in producing non-record demos. You certainly are strong enough to beat DeDo's 11:28, especially if you restrict the plasma rifle usage, because cell ammo can be utilized much more efficiently with BFG. For example, DeDo used a lot of plasma on some puny baddies in the first half. Many of them can be quickly and easily killed with SSG or rockets, and this way you'll gain enough ammo for a number of extra BFG blasts to speed up blowing away some barons, mancubi, etc. in the second half.

Also, VDGG is right about the blue armor. It does not require more time to pick up than the green one :-)

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Old Post 09-03-11 14:13 #
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j4rio
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First holyhell encounter is a hundred or so hitscanners. Good luck with reality. ;)

Old Post 09-03-11 20:27 #
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
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cannonball said:
Map24 is a beautiful level, i might do a demo for this anyway, even if I don't get the record :)


I agree about it, it's one of the most beautiful city based map I ever seen, the reused village music from VF map15 is good too! I am sure you could beat Dedo's record easily since he doesn't play aggressive enough.

Old Post 09-04-11 13:02 #
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