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Andy Olivera
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102 demos this week, all new, including the ones that weren't in last week's update.

TGH: Got it. Thanks!

myk: I forgot to fix those this time, but it will definitely be done by next week. Thanks!

Old Post 03-22-10 06:06 #
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The Green Herring
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Okay... the placement of my demos for dethflow got totally screwed up. My 5:31 UV max demo (DFLW-531.ZIP) was placed in the section for dfield, and my 1:54 UV speed demo (DFLW-154.ZIP) was put in the section for d1bip0_9. I know updating can be hard, but jeez! ;)

For my diamond demos, you should note for each demo: "Plays back with DIAMOND1.WAD." This is so it's clear which one is required to play them, as the WAD package comes with two WADs which are different only in the size of the pillars.

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Old Post 03-22-10 06:10 #
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vdgg
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We obviously didn't make thing easy last week: lots of demos for hell lots of WADs. Two things I noticed were:
- xepop's stroller for MAP16 is there while his older entry for MAP01 is not,
- DoomHero85's 8:01 UV Max belongs to vv, not vv2.

Old Post 03-22-10 09:01 #
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xepop
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Graim's Scythe D2EP1 also

Old Post 03-22-10 14:14 #
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Andy Olivera
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See, this is what happens when I update while I should be sleeping.:-)

TGH: Weird. I'm not sure how I managed to add both demos(to different WADs) without adding the one it actually belongs to. Fixed, and notes to diamond.wad added. Thanks!

vdgg & xepop: DoomHero85's demo is now under vv where it belongs. xepop's MAP01 stroller and Graim's episode run will be up next week. Thanks!

BTW, just so nobody thinks something isn't working, the stats for the WADs(specifically, dethflow and vv) are going to be wrong(both show no demos) until the next update.

Old Post 03-23-10 05:55 #
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Revved
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For the next update can you label the following Scythe demos as Pacifist:

Erik Alm's 0:37 Pacifist on Map 13
Radek Pecka's 0:34 Pacifist on Map 13
Kristian Ronge's 0:24 Pacifist on Map 13

Also, I would like you to remove my 1:29 Pacifist in Map 13 of Scythe mainly because I was simply disappointed in myself and I don't want people to make the same mistake I did.

Old Post 03-26-10 02:48 #
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dew
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Revved said:
Also, I would like you to remove my 1:29 Pacifist in Map 13 of Scythe mainly because I was simply disappointed in myself and I don't want people to make the same mistake I did.

please don't... the demo is interesting exactly because it doesn't use the key bump. the route might not be the shortest one, but i enjoyed it's difficulty based on different features than the luck-driven bump.

Old Post 03-26-10 03:11 #
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vdgg
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@Revved: What you may consider is change your txt file description. Like "This was recorded because of some misunderstanding. If you think this demo sucks, blame dew who wanted me to keep it in the archives". ;-) Anyway, it's up to you, BTW there's also one demo hidden here at DW forums which I also DON'T want @DSDA (but I have some reasonable counter arguments ha ha).

Old Post 03-26-10 09:57 #
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Andy Olivera
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75 demos this week, including the backlog from the ksutra thread. Thanks to both Kimo Xvirus and Gusta for sending these.

myk: I've fixed the comments on your pendragon demo.

Revved: Demo categories fixed. I've left your 1:29 up, but added a comment denoting the alternate route. I think it has value because you didn't use the keygrab. It's like a separate category.:-)

Last edited by Andy Olivera on 03-31-10 at 02:28

Old Post 03-29-10 08:38 #
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dew
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red-xiii's p207-047 is an uv-speed despite his text file stating it's max... red used a wrong template :)

Old Post 03-29-10 09:21 #
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Andy Olivera
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dew: Fixed. Thanks!

Old Post 03-29-10 09:23 #
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kimo_xvirus
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Andy, I was the one who sent the ksutra demos :D
Also my runs for mm2, m201-021 and m205-055 are UV Speed, the txts are wrong :)
Thanks

Old Post 03-30-10 22:24 #
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Gusta
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kimo: I was the one who sent them too ... :-)

Old Post 03-30-10 23:08 #
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Andy Olivera
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Kimo: Oops, sorry! Typo fixed in previous post, and categories corrected at DSDA.:-)

Old Post 03-31-10 05:33 #
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vdgg
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Continuing the pacifist/speed category topic: Adam Hegyi's rq20-010 is Pacifist (am I right, Kimo?), may be moved to Pacifist category if DSDA policy is to give "priority" to Pacifist.
Edit: Xit Vono's rn23-602 is definitely NM100, as 50% secrets is considered max

I'm still not ready with the Miscellaneous Demos thread. But what about cchest3? Should I prepare the list of the demos for you, Andy or you have already done this?

Last edited by vdgg on 04-03-10 at 00:46

Old Post 04-03-10 00:34 #
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tatsurd-cacocaco
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About DoomHero85's demo for scythe map 20, certainly this is "a pseudo-Pacifist demo" because he harm the Romero's head by telefrag, but this telefrag is unavoidable completely, like sc10 and hr04. Of course, the situation would be changed if someone find the way to avoid it. However, this should be as "Pacifist" now.


By the way, Kristian's sc17-010 includes Pacifist. He avoid killing an arch-vile by telefrag.

Old Post 04-03-10 03:14 #
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Andy Olivera
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vdgg: Both fixed. And the whole Speed/Pacifist distinction is dicey, as I'm trying to avoid duplicate entries. My choosing to favor Pacifist is simply because it's the harder of the two categories.

tatsurd: Ah, I was under the impression that he actually killed it. Fixed. As for Kristian's Scythe run, I'll assume you meant sc27-010. Also fixed.:-)

Old Post 04-03-10 07:40 #
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myk
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Andy Olivera said:
My choosing to favor Pacifist is simply because it's the harder of the two categories.
It's sensible because pacifist is speed-inclusive. Any pacifist record that doesn't have a correspondingly faster speed demo to beat it is also a speed record. The only exception is two demos, where someone records a speed demo and then someone equals the time with a pacifist. In that case, each demo holds the "record" for its own category because the newer pacifist didn't beat the speed demo as such.

One thing that might make readability easier is to list the categories according to their type, placing pacifist after speed, NM-100 after nightmare, and Tyson after max, using bold type for the root categories and normal type for the subcategories. Probably in this order: speed, max, fast, respawn. This is because the subcategories can sometimes be the record for the root category. Tyson only when the player also gets all secrets, which isn't a requirement for the category, so those cases usually need a note. (I recall that, for example, the DOOM E2M2 Tyson was also the max record at COMPET-N at some point.)

Old Post 04-04-10 00:57 #
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vdgg
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myk said:
One thing that might make readability easier is to list the categories according to their type, placing pacifist after speed, NM-100 after nightmare, and Tyson after max, using bold type for the root categories and normal type for the subcategories. Probably in this order: speed, max, fast, respawn. This is because the subcategories can sometimes be the record for the root category. Tyson only when the player also gets all secrets, which isn't a requirement for the category, so those cases usually need a note. (I recall that, for example, the DOOM E2M2 Tyson was also the max record at COMPET-N at some point.)

Just to say I really like Max being in the first place (this is easily my personal preference, but I'd support it as Max is kind of a "central" category, it is the most widespread and the most popular, as you'll probably agree that in these forums Max Demos have more views than all the other categories). Putting Speeds near Pacifists and Nightmares together (the latter already are) is a good idea. The cases when Max and Tyson coincide are so rare I wouldn't bother and I like listing Tyson as last before Other.

Maybe (not sure) bold/normal font could be used to distinguish SP from Co-op. I know co-op players do tremendous job, but unfortunately, their demos are not very popular, so giving them a normal font seems reasonable to me.

Old Post 04-04-10 06:44 #
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tatsurd-cacocaco
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Andy Olivera said:
tatsurd: Ah, I was under the impression that he actually killed it. Fixed. As for Kristian's Scythe run, I'll assume you meant sc27-010. Also fixed.:-)
Thanks! and I apologize for my mistake.

Btw, Method's demo for sc15(secret exit) is "Nightmare Speed"

Old Post 04-04-10 19:35 #
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myk
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The tables are noting the engine used but not the version of each demo recorded, which is arguably more important because it's what one needs to know to play them back and is crucial for time-comparison purposes. The way its written, people may think they'll require PrBoom for a bunch of the vanilla, limit removing and Boom demos, but they can watch the stuff in Doom, Doom+, Chocolate Doom or Boom just fine. The compatibility level should be listed after the Prboom/+ version, or you could split it into "engine" and "demo version", which may be a better idea.


vdgg said:
Maybe (not sure) bold/normal font could be used to distinguish SP from Co-op. I know co-op players do tremendous job, but unfortunately, their demos are not very popular, so giving them a normal font seems reasonable to me.
I think vdgg's demos should use a tiny font because they're not as fast as some other players'!

Actually, single player and coop demos are not the same thing, so they can be separate, as if on different categories. In this sense they can be "normal text" because they would not be the root category. The "solo-net" demos would appear with coop demos, as they are effectively 1-player coop demos.

Old Post 04-04-10 23:20 #
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Joshy
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Hmm, SoD archive needs a little fixing up.

Old version is still up, here's the final version: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=16040

The file name is renamed as sodfinal, so it can be distinguishable.


Also the following demos that are in the archive desyncs with the final version:
    -Gusta's Map08 (both speed and max)
    -Anima Zero and Gusta's UV speed on Map14 (all 3 of them)
    -Kimoxvirus' Map29 UV Speed
    -Okuplok's Map31's Max


Also, Map09 by Okuplok with a time of 33.08 is actually for Sunder, as the Max time for SoD's Map09 would be around 5 minutes instead. :P

Old Post 04-05-10 08:14 #
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Andy Olivera
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127 demos this week, including some of the FDA backlog from TimeOfDeath and Skepticist.

Tatsurd: No problem! I was able to figure it out fairly easily. Also, Method's sc15 demo is fixed. Thanks!

vdgg & myk: The current category order was chosen largely by popularity. I'm open to moving them about slightly, as in putting Pacifist under UV Speed. However, resolving the problem of overlapping categories(UV/Pacifist, NM/100) could really only be done by either duplicate entries(this would screw up the site statistics) or integrating them and using a marker to denote the subcategories(as with C-N or TAS). The latter method would be acceptable to me if people think it would make things easier to read.

Regarding Co-op, I kept them integrated for a couple reasons: primarily, I want to keep the categories to as few as possible; and to a lesser extent, I think it's an interesting contrast, looking at them in relation to the SP times. If there were more of them, I would consider giving them seperate categories, as they occasionally have more monsters, but they really aren't common enough to warrant that. This is the same reason I put Solo-Net demos in the Other category: they're more of an oddity.

And finally, the display of the engine used for recording is simply to show what port is guaranteed to play back the demo. The DSDA exists to compile all the demos into one place so they're easy to find and view. It's up to the viewer to determine what's 'comparable', the 'real' record, etc.

Joshy: I've been waiting for someone to tell me where the incompatibilities in the versions were.:-) However, putting together a WAD file with the old versions will have to wait until a later date, as it's already WAY past my bedtime. Also, Okuplok's demo is now under the correct WAD. Thanks!

Old Post 04-05-10 08:33 #
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Phml
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integrating them and using a marker to denote the subcategories(as with C-N or TAS). The latter method would be acceptable to me if people think it would make things easier to read.


I've often been fooled into thinking the fastest time for a given demo was a relatively slow UV Speed simply because I didn't notice a much faster pacifist below, I think it'd make things easier if it was done using the quoted method.

Old Post 04-05-10 11:36 #
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Revved
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All right, my Speed of Doom Map 1 Tyson in 4:29 is incorrectly labeled under Sunder, and not Speed of Doom. Besides, doing a Tyson on that level is basically impossible. :)

Old Post 04-05-10 12:25 #
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Gusta
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Andy: that KS25 UV Speed in 0:00 is actually NM Speed (according to its file name and txt info)

Old Post 04-05-10 15:56 #
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Andy Olivera
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phml: I agree. I would rename the categories to include both, so there wouldn't be any confusion as to where the other demos went. Then Pacifist and NM100 demos, being subcategories of sorts, would be denoted by a P or S next to the time. Any other opinions on whether UV/Pacifist and NM/100 should be intermixed?

Revved: Fixed. Thanks!

Gusta: Fixed. I can tell from the inclusion of the 'Also Pacifist.' comment that I intended to put it in the NM category from the start. Thanks!

Old Post 04-06-10 02:54 #
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vdgg
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In order to play back MAP29 UV Max demo by DoomHero85 an update is needed. I believe replacing current DSDA wos.wad (19 sep) with the last wos.wad (7 dec) is sufficient. Now all the demos will play back correctly, I believe, except three: MAP02 UV Max, MAP02 UV Speed and MAP19 UV Max. All of these three need the wos_old.wad patch, so an appropriate note ("plays back with wos_old.wad") would be nice. I wish I could write it in a less complicated way...

Old Post 04-08-10 19:00 #
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dew
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my sd01p034 is speed of doom demo, not sunder. i don't understand why okuplok abbreviated sunder as 'sd', phml wisely named his demos suXY-abc, praise his foresight. also the exit time in my sd03-142 is not 0:59, but (wait for it...) 1:42! sorry, my forgetfulness when rewriting a different sod text file. armouredblood's sd01-040 is uv-speed, not max.

and symmetrically to what vdgg described, some sod demos were recorded on the first public release (sod.wad) and desync when replayed using the final release (sodfinal.wad). it's:
kimo's sd01-031 uv speed, doomhero's sd02-711 uv max, both current gusta's sd08 demos, all current sd14 uv speed demos (maxes are okay!), kimo's sd29-033 uv speed and okuplok's sd31-806 uv max.
i see you already included sod_old.wad into the pack, so making a note for the demos requiring it should be all that's needed.

Old Post 04-08-10 19:45 #
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myk
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Andy Olivera said:
And finally, the display of the engine used for recording is simply to show what port is guaranteed to play back the demo. The DSDA exists to compile all the demos into one place so they're easy to find and view. It's up to the viewer to determine what's 'comparable', the 'real' record, etc.
It's not easy to find vanilla or Boom demos (99% of all Prboom/+ demos, for a good reason) when the lists don't mention the demo version and the player can't tell what's comparable from the version of the engine in PrBoom's case because PrBoom is "many engines in one".

So PrBoom is the problem in the list, because all other engines are straightforward in this respect (except maybe Boom's Doom compatibility could also be noted, although I'm not sure if any demos use it... a mere note will do there). Opulent started the DSDA before PrBoom came to the scene and he was listing the compatibility level of the demos, although only in the descriptions below, probably because the mention was a late addition. As far as I'm concerned, a "PrBoom-plus v2.5.0.7 demo" is a demo recorded with that engine's default compatibility, not one of the lower compatibility levels, such as 2 or 9.

Compare the Scythe pages from the old and new DSDA; a bunch of data that was at the bottom was eliminated and not fully integrated into the list.

For the lists to be complete, they need the compatibility level for any PrBoom/+ demos. If you think this data may somehow clutter the lists, you could even note it in a systematic and non-intrusive way. For example, "PrBoom-plus 2.5.0.7/9" could mean "PrBoom-plus version 2.5.0.7 -complevel 9". You could explain this somewhere, such as at the bottom of the lists or on the info page. If you explain it on the info page, you could note what each compatibility level means for each group of PrBoom versions, as it changed through the years. Boom compatibility was initially 3, then 5, and is now 9, for example.

On the Info page you have links to various source ports. It would be wise to have a link to the PrBoom+ site there, instead of some older version (you have 2.5.0.3 there, which is kind of old already and may have Boom compatibility bugs), to encourage people to use the latest stable version. The same could be done for all the regularly maintained ports.

Old Post 04-11-10 10:35 #
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