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Springy
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I'm working on a TAS episode run and I was wondering if the area map can be used in the run, the area is rather dark and quite confusing. Also, does an episode run have to include the secret map?

Old Post 03-12-13 13:54 #
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vdgg
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????

More details, pls, how does the map help with the darkness I don't understand.

Why not watch a single UV Run, like Plutonia's? (or Doom ep.4 if you mean "episode" literally) You'll see that secret maps are optional, usually they slow you down.

Old Post 03-12-13 14:04 #
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Springy
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vdgg said:
????

More details, pls, how does the map help with the darkness I don't understand.

Why not watch a single UV Run, like Plutonia's? (or Doom ep.4 if you mean "episode" literally) You'll see that secret maps are optional, usually they slow you down.


I mean that the level has a distinct lack of light making it difficult too see and in order to progress, one has to trigger linedef's in order to open up another section of the map and so forth. If the secret map doesn't usually get done, then I can just pass it and don't have to worry about the auto map. Thanks for clearing that up.

Old Post 03-12-13 14:11 #
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Creaphis
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Demos don't record when you turn the automap on and off. You can use it as much as you want and your audience will never know.

Old Post 03-15-13 23:17 #
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Grazza
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As far as I know there has never been any objection to using the automap as much as you like when recording, including "playing in it". The one thing that would be considered cheating is using the IDDT cheat code (and especially IDDT-IDDT).

Old Post 03-15-13 23:53 #
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Springy
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Grazza said:
The one thing that would be considered cheating is using the IDDT cheat code (and especially IDDT-IDDT).

I can understand the use of cheat codes being classed as unacceptable. I thought to ask this because, well, it could help a person to see linedefs and some secrets (if a mapper hasn't made them obvious on the automap). If that makes any sense.

Old Post 03-16-13 00:01 #
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Memfis
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Ok, confession time... In my Invasion II map12 uv-max I used double IDDT to remember where the last two secrets are but in the readme I lied and said that I just looked at the alternative HUD. I just totally didn't feel like redoing that run since I get very nervous when recording long demos, but I also didn't want to admit that I used cheats. Very childish, I know. :\

Old Post 03-16-13 00:11 #
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Grazza
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Actually, I almost half-considered doing that on 1337.wad map15, but never released the demo. In that case, a single IDDT would be a rather severe cheat.

Old Post 03-16-13 00:20 #
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blob1024
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Grazza said:
As far as I know there has never been any objection to using the automap as much as you like when recording, including "playing in it". The one thing that would be considered cheating is using the IDDT cheat code (and especially IDDT-IDDT).

now this sounds totally new to me
why should IDDT count as a cheat? does using it invalid demos? since any port with advanced HUD helps too knowing enemies alive after all
is there an ufficial statement about this somewhere?

Old Post 03-16-13 17:39 #
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j4rio
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More fun facts - if you are fast typer, idbeholdl during wipe screen can give you free light goggles, demo won't desync and audience will never know.

I usually just quit recording if I'm missing something. I wouldn't stand demo where I search for monster.

Old Post 03-16-13 17:58 #
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xit-vono
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Henning used IDDT in pn08, which he admitted to using in the txt file. His demo was invalidated by Adam Hegyi because IDDT is a cheat code. The demo was however kept as a misc run, because it was still an achievement as the level had not yet been completed in nightmare.

Old Post 03-16-13 18:00 #
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blob1024
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xit-vono said:
Henning used IDDT in pn08, which he admitted to using in the txt file. His demo was invalidated by Adam Hegyi because IDDT is a cheat code. The demo was however kept as a misc run, because it was still an achievement as the level had not yet been completed in nightmare.

since i've always used pr+ i got to ask this:
was this iddt the only way to track down leftover monsters? does the original dos exe have any hud status displaying monsters? if not, thats probably why it was considered a cheat for CN, while it would be kinda weird with the newer ports.

Old Post 03-16-13 18:17 #
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j4rio
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That's kinda stupid, iddt won't help you a tint in nightmare. Unless you suck, in which case you shouldn't be demo-ing. I see no harm coming from it, other than additional motivating timewaste coming from staring at map.

Then again, there were some ridiculous Hegyi quotes. Did he really brag about his demos being beaten by usage of legitimate sr50?

Old Post 03-16-13 18:20 #
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Grazza
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Henning actually put in his text-file:

First things first, I used "iddt" in the bluekey room to lure out the cacos etc, so I understand if you don't wanna accept as a fully worthy entry Adam. That's up to you, but it's fine by me if it gets in the misc cat. Or you could just delete it =)
He clearly didn't feel it was entirely legit, and AdamH's decision didn't come as a surprise to anyone, and I don't recall any controversy over it. Henning's main interest appeared to be showing that this previously undone task was achievable, albeit with a little more luck and/or planning than he had managed up to that point.

j4rio said:
That's kinda stupid, iddt won't help you a tint in nightmare. Unless you suck
That seems an odd claim. The converse might be true: if you suck, then it probably won't help, but then nothing will.

But in this specific instance, it was in a chaotic NM run, where the player is liable to have very little health (so any bad hit will kill him), and has no way of knowing which side of him the monsters will be when he runs through an area. Knowing which side of him they are (via the automap cheat) may very well make the difference between life and death.

j4rio said:
Did he really brag about his demos being beaten by usage of legitimate sr50?
Back in the old days, there were some fairly widespread views about strafe-50 usage that just seem odd to us nowadays. This wasn't restricted to AdamH. I recall Ocelot and Henning also making comments to the effect that it was somehow wrong for a demo recorded without strafe-50 to be beaten using it. That slowly fell away with time. I guess the idea was that a beautiful demo shouldn't be beaten by an uglier-looking one; it took some time for players to adopt strafe-50 smoothly into their running.

Old Post 03-16-13 19:36 #
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Archy
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blob1024 said:
was this iddt the only way to track down leftover monsters? does the original dos exe have any hud status displaying monsters?

Just in case Grazza didn't answer your question, there is no such HUD in Vanilla Doom that displays, kills, secrets, items, or time.

Old Post 03-16-13 20:01 #
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Grazza
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Yeah, the live monster counter was a feature first introduced in Tasdoom, as far as I am aware.

Old Post 03-16-13 20:15 #
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j4rio
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Grazza said:
That seems an odd claim. The converse might be true: if you suck, then it probably won't help, but then nothing will.

Yeah, something like that.

What's the stance of SDA on ingame cheat codes? I suppose either entirely rejected or separate category. Doom just happens to be capable of near worthless effects during recording from cheat codes, which most likely in no cases save time. So, whatever.

Grazza said:
But in this specific instance, it was in a chaotic NM run, where the player is liable to have very little health (so any bad hit will kill him), and has no way of knowing which side of him the monsters will be when he runs through an area. Knowing which side of him they are (via the automap cheat) may very well make the difference between life and death.

I think that just works in theory. By the time you stop checking automap, monsters move somewhere else. Or you die while staring at map.

Even in case of confusing layout, there's no way to benefit from using it. Memorizing layout will be always vastly superior time-wise.

Old Post 03-16-13 21:15 #
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Archy
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idbeholdL isn't worthless, nor even close to worthless on some maps.

Old Post 03-16-13 21:20 #
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j4rio
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Maybe, but typing it is annoying and gamma 4 has usually been enough to see stuff, even in vanilla. It might be of benefit in light 0 maps, but those are rare. It's still possible to learn them to the point that you get no time hinder from it (vf14).

Old Post 03-16-13 21:23 #
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blob1024
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btw the fact those can be used while demorecording while iddqd or idfa dont should be quite self explanatory, isnt it

personally, beside monster count- i use every now and then iddt to be sure every monster with slow teleporting actually spawned already. Still- u can count the amount of enemies u are waiting in the map builder otherwise, or count them while u kill in normal practice runs, sure sometimes it *does* help. but turning a demo invalid for that... ummmmmmh. Also those iddt and idbeholdl arent trackable in any way? cant something to recognize their use be added in the new ports?


major respect for all the CN entries and demos recorded under old vanilla, without any time or advanced hud status anyway. but thats why the archive shows the engine used for all the demos archived I'd say

Old Post 03-16-13 21:36 #
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vdgg
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I'd say port is not enough; what you just said "i use every now and then iddt to be sure every monster with slow teleporting actually spawned already" I'd like to see in the txt files. I like SAV's texts as an example, also this one by Anima:

"I won't lie, I did have to use a tiny bit of IDDT here, but sometimes its necessary because there's almost always one caco that's a royal prick and refuses to come up to a point where you can shoot it unless you manipulate it into a pillar or something where it can do that. As I found out later, the IDDT'ing wasn't needed since the caco that usually forces my hand in that matter came up without me having to worry about it." (cd09-5114).

Also, I miss Qaatar and his rants :)

Old Post 03-16-13 21:56 #
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Grazza
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j4rio said:
I think that just works in theory. By the time you stop checking automap, monsters move somewhere else. Or you die while staring at map.
You say this despite having a counterexample staring you in the face. Henning, arguably the greatest NM player in Doom history, found that this cheat code enabled him to achieve something that he had been unable to achieve without it, despite (clearly) a great deal of effort.

Regarding monster counters, views differ greatly on this. I consider it clearly a TAS feature and would never use it in a "normal" demo. But others clearly feel differently, with some players using it routinely without thinking anything is amiss. So people are strongly encouraged to mention in their txt if they used any such features, and everyone can view this in whatever way they see fit.


vdgg said:
I'd say port is not enough
Or indeed, not the most relevant information. I always found it odd and a little frustrating that for DSDA Opulent would go to some trouble to specify the exact version of the port, but give no mention of whether it was a Boom demo, or vanilla or something else. When Andy took over the demo archive, it's understandable that he didn't revamp this, given the amount of work involved.

Regarding advanced HUD use, etc., perhaps there could be a "declaration" thread here, where people could declare any such matters that affect all of their demos, even including things like resolution.

Old Post 03-16-13 22:24 #
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j4rio
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It's prboom which disables iddqd, etc. They work in vanilla, just demo desyncs when you finish recording. Those two cheats just happen not to interfere with playback.


You say this despite having a counterexample staring you in the face. Henning, arguably the greatest NM player in Doom history, found this cheat code enabled him to achieve something that he had been unable to achieve without it, despite (clearly) a great deal of effort.


But my point that he still wasted time staring at map, while he could have just used that time hoping to live through instead stands. It will be an abusable factor by challenger of the record.

... and a moment I took to look at plutonia tables just assured my theory.

Last edited by j4rio on 03-16-13 at 22:43

Old Post 03-16-13 22:25 #
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Grazza
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I'd love to see one of these desynching demos recorded in vanilla where IDDQD was used. :p

Old Post 03-16-13 22:32 #
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Archy
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Lol, the first time a user does this, they're probably like "WTF the demo's broken!!"

Old Post 03-16-13 22:35 #
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blob1024
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vdgg said:
I'd say port is not enough; what you just said "i use every now and then iddt to be sure every monster with slow teleporting actually spawned already" I'd like to see in the txt files.


okay I see the point anyway, so I will write it in txt in case

btw - just to clarify - i was talking about the (way too short in my case lol) practice session before the demorecording. thinking about it, the only demo I used iddt actively is exactly the last one, the bbb.wad uv max, with all the dozen monsters caged and teleporting. I used it because I was too lazy to count or open the level and check precisely how many they were. but infact, i lost time instead of gaining any, like j4rio explained. (funny thing is also the previous demo of bbb.wad from the author himself right in the wad- clearly uses the hud or the iddt for a check right before entering the exit area)

Old Post 03-16-13 22:37 #
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Looper
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Just because you lost time using IDDT doesn't make it useless. I thought people mention when they use advanced HUD in their demos.

Old Post 03-16-13 22:49 #
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j4rio
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Maybe not as much useless as not worth it.

Old Post 03-16-13 22:58 #
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Archy
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Looper said:
I thought people mention when they use advanced HUD in their demos.

Well they should but there has been many cases where they don't. Too tired to dig through DSDA though. Even when it is mention in the TXT (which it is most of the time), it is often not stated below the demo in comments section of DSDA.

Old Post 03-16-13 23:11 #
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j4rio
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Well you can dig out a few hundreds of my demos. Actually, it might as well be prboom users who don't use HUD to write it in txt. They are the minority.

Old Post 03-16-13 23:36 #
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