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drav35
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okay i played every wad this week

The single player levels were good and the deathmatch levels were bad.

Old Post 12-08-02 15:19 #
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Enjay
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Zort was indeed cool, but it took me a while to find all those tunnels in the underwater dark. Mind you, once I knew that was a theme of the map, I started looking for them and it became a lot easier.

The use of the translation stuff in Zdoom was cool. I thought the dark grey and gold demons looked especially good.

And the trippy hippy imps dancing round the 'shroom - pure class.

I noticed at the start, you get a brief flash of the player's POV before cutting to the moving camera. This can be avoided if you put a regular camera at exactly the same position as the moving camera's first view node, change to the regular camera in your open script, and then from that view change to the moving camera.

Was the Cybies body supposed to keep teleporting after it died? An odd effect indeed.

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Old Post 12-08-02 16:39 #
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Hyena
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Rez: You're generalizing and exaggerating. You make it sound like none of the reviewers have anything nice to say about beginner or lower quality wads.
I think all of us, at the very least, say what we don't like about it and what parts of it were half-way decent.

Name for me one review where it only said, "It sucks," and doesn't explain.

Old Post 12-08-02 16:44 #
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Rellik
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Yes it is a reviewers job to critique levels but to say:


The detailing is once again disgusting and some cheapass job.


is not only way out of line, it goes a long way to showing the maturity level of the reviewer. If this is the only way deathzor can communicate his interpretation of the wad, he needs to be replaced. All he's doing is turning the 'Chronicals into a joke. I strongly suggest not letting him review any more mods, he's obviously not up to the job.

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Old Post 12-08-02 17:36 #
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DOOM Anomaly
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Personally, i like deathz0r's approach on reviewing, I know its a bit crutal but, hey, its just his opinion, and yes I know "but he's reviewing it for all of us" well yeah, what you dont want his honest opinion? you want him to call it a über-1337 wad yet when its as horrible and bug-0-lisous like my wad? Perhaps he could tone down the harshness a bit, and not call things "crap, ugly horrible, waste of time" unless the truly are...Like my wad. Sure his reviews may only insult many wads, but then give it a try and see for your self, perhaps hes right to do such brutal reviews, and you cant expect him ot give tips on each wad on how to improve it do you??? he may have a life to live you know.

I dont mean to get anyone on the bad side of the lake here, but thats just some on how I feel. Now if you excuse me, I have a needle to take.

heh, I just want to see how bad my craptastic wad would be reviewed by Deathz0r.......Soo.........Te-mpting......GAHHHH..

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Old Post 12-08-02 17:36 #
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Nanami
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DOOM Anomaly said:
and you cant expect him ot give tips on each wad on how to improve it do you??? he may have a life to live you know.


If he's too busy to help newbies make better levels next time they upload them, he shouldn't be reviewing. Instead of telling people they can't make levels, a reviewer should comment on the good parts of the level (like when I uploaded UAC.wad. I admit, it was horrible, and got a bad review, but I got a good comment on the crate placement) and tell them what could be improved, changed, added, or removed.

If you just say "Well, the map is ugly and there's too many monsters," it discourages new mapmakers. INSTEAD, say things like "the architecture in the red room could be changed a bit match the scheme from the previous two rooms, and the mapmaker could improve on their lighting effects some," and "the placement of the Spider Mastermind was bad--it could have been removed or changed to an Arachnotron." Just saying "the map is ugly" doesn't tell ANYONE anything about the map.

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Old Post 12-08-02 18:12 #
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Julian


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Nanami said:
If he's too busy to help newbies make better levels next time they upload them, he shouldn't be reviewing. Instead of telling people they can't make levels, a reviewer should comment on the good parts of the level (like when I uploaded UAC.wad. I admit, it was horrible, and got a bad review, but I got a good comment on the crate placement) and tell them what could be improved, changed, added, or removed.

I'm sorry, but this is a job for a beta-tester not a reviewer. I think death could improve his spelling, other than that he's perfectly entitled to his opinion.
More description? Maybe, but why describe a map if he believes it is not worth downloading. I know I wouldn't. Browse idgames and you'll see what I mean.
You guys and girls are quite the kill-the-messenger type. You argue about death's reviews in such a harsh way I can hardly believe you when you tell (yell?) him things like: "you shouldn't be harsh". Come on, read your own words doomers.
On a side note, I believe that if Ola Bjorling were to upload a map with new textures it would get a good review. It's not like there aren't plenty of awesome maps around here to learn from. Again, death's job is not to take you by the hand and learn you how to map: find good and experienced beta-testers.

Old Post 12-08-02 18:22 #
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DOOM Anomaly
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Nanami said:
If you just say "Well, the map is ugly and there's too many monsters," it discourages new mapmakers. INSTEAD, say things like "the architecture in the red room could be changed a bit match the scheme from the previous two rooms, and the mapmaker could improve on their lighting effects some," and "the placement of the Spider Mastermind was bad--it could have been removed or changed to an Arachnotron." Just saying "the map is ugly" doesn't tell ANYONE anything about the map.
yes indeed, perhaps he does his style cause, by saying "The <Insert Dee-Lee here> was nice but could have been changed" sometimes, some map makers dont notice that it really means "The <Insert Dee-Lee here> needs work on, it doesnt seem right there, a little consideration in how it is used/placed should be revised." Sometimes mappers just see the "The <Insert Dee-Lee here> was nice but could have been changed" way as a suggestion but they dont do it, so they continue to make the misstake, all due to cause the reviewer put it too nicely. Now I know not all mappers would do that, but Im more than sure there are a few in which do do that. No offence to anyone nor anything but sometimes to be harsh is the best way to learn, but thats not always the case. We all have our own opinions, I personally would like my wads reviewed by Deathz0r so I can see all the wrong things with it, the hardest way possible, I like critism to my work, it helps me make them better.

Again, sorry If im angering anyone, I dont intentionally mean to make anyone or anything mad.

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Old Post 12-08-02 18:24 #
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Nanami
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The Reverend Julian said:
I'm sorry, but this is a job for a beta-tester not a reviewer. I think death could improve his spelling, other than that he's perfectly entitled to his opinion.
More description? Maybe, but why describe a map if he believes it is not worth downloading. I know I wouldn't. Browse idgames and you'll see what I mean.



I had about 20 people play and test the Grind2 and Grind2X levels and not one of them had any complaints. I tweaked it and had two sets of four beta testers for the original, and about 5 or 6 people played Grind2X and suggested I upload it. When deathz0r reviewed it, he made it sound like I spent five minutes on the level and just threw things together at random.

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Old Post 12-08-02 18:59 #
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Julian


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Nanami said:
I had about 20 people play and test the Grind2 and Grind2X levels and not one of them had any complaints. I tweaked it and had two sets of four beta testers for the original, and about 5 or 6 people played Grind2X and suggested I upload it. When deathz0r reviewed it, he made it sound like I spent five minutes on the level and just threw things together at random.

I strongly believe I should give up on this but I'll make a last attempt.

I said it earlier but I doubt it got your attention: A REVIEWER STATES HIS OWN OPINION. Whatever the time you spent on your work has been, if he thinks it looks like a bad speedmapping level he has the right, and even more, he must say it. /newstuff is not meant to please mappers but to please players.

So you had like 30 people telling you the map was OK. Not a single complaint? I've worked on quite a lot of projects and I find that hard to believe. In fact, a beta-tester always complains or else he doesn't do his job.

Anyway, that doesn't matter, so like 30 people liked your map and 1 guy named deathz0r didnt. So what? End of the world? If you truly believe your map is good why do you keep on whining? If you can't stand harsh critics for a work of yourse you made public, I suggest you stop making any of your work public asap.

Funny fact, if you're seeking for fame, given the focus your little flame put on this level, it is most likely that a lot of people have already downloaded it.

One last word: next time you make a level why not ask deathz0r to beta-test it? This would prevent the whole community to witness your vexation.

Old Post 12-08-02 19:28 #
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Grazza
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A review should be more than just a hastily given opinion. It should provide information, some constructive comment and opinion. That way, the reader can form a better view of whether it is for him (or her). Frankly, I find deathz0r and hyena's reviews completely useless. In their weeks I either wait to see other people's comments or just look at the wads myself without any preconceptions. And no, I'm not saying "they should be nicer"; uninformative favourable "reviews" would be just as worthless.

BTW, I beat Grind2X with fast monsters (and I'm no compet-n-er!), so it can't be too difficult. I think both Grind2 and Grind2X are well-made levels that support a lot of different modes of play. OK, they are not as sophisticated as many of the wads from the more experienced mappers in the community, but that's hardly a reason to trash them.

Old Post 12-08-02 19:28 #
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myk
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Nanami, don't mind deathz0r, he doesn't know anything about SP maps, he even admits it feels impossible to him, and he relies solely on visuals and tricks to judge a SP map (whereas on DM he does almost the contrary.) But my reason for posting was more relevant. I note this is the beta version you posted (even the text file says so), you said on a thread you were spreading the health, changing the demons to something with long range attacks and maybe some other thing. What happened to that version?

Oh, the reason it is not doom2 compatible is the medusa effect produced by the outcropping switches. I don't think there's VPOs anymore, they seem to have gone (there was one in a beta version of grind2.) It's also quite possible to play the map on doom2, in any case playing any demos back on prboom to avoid the medusa effect when watching.

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Old Post 12-08-02 19:35 #
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magikal
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I'm sorry but what becomes obvious is that he hasn't really played the maps and holds a bigoted position.

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Old Post 12-08-02 19:39 #
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Nanami
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myk said:
But my reason for posting was more relevant. I note this is the beta version you posted (even the text file says so), you said on a thread you were spreading the health, changing the demons to something with long range attacks and maybe some other thing. What happened to that version?


I didn't want all those demos to desync because of such a small change, and it occured to me that with the connectiveness of the teleporters, the health seems to be in a pretty good place.

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Old Post 12-08-02 19:43 #
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Cyb


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Enjay said:
I noticed at the start, you get a brief flash of the player's POV before cutting to the moving camera. This can be avoided if you put a regular camera at exactly the same position as the moving camera's first view node, change to the regular camera in your open script, and then from that view change to the moving camera.


That flash only happens on occasion, not enough for it to bug me, and only in 1.23 (as I said the majority of the testing was done in 2.0).



Was the Cybies body supposed to keep teleporting after it died? An odd effect indeed.



It doesn't. In fact I have things in the script specificaly to make sure that very thing doesn't happen. I just played through it in 1.23, and he didn't teleport after he died. So either some weird occurence happened (perhaps if you kill him and he is being moved at the same time then the script doesn't terminate properly, but that is such a rare thing that it's not worth racking my brain over.

Or perhaps you're not using b33, I'm sure it works in previous versions of 1.23 but who knows how the scripts behave. I dunno. Anyways, thanks for the input, glad you liked the map.

Old Post 12-08-02 19:58 #
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Hyena
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First, I applaud Julian. I agree with most if not all of what he said.

Grazza: "Frankly, I find deathz0r and hyena's reviews completely useless."
Hypocritical, isn't it? "This wad sucks" . . . "This review is useless"
I hope you never become a reviewer.

Old Post 12-08-02 20:12 #
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myk
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Hmm, actually Grazza would make an interesting reviewer, from what I know about him...

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Old Post 12-08-02 20:29 #
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deathz0r
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Ultimate DooMer said:
It's called the translation feature (it replaces one range of colours with another on all things with the chosen tag) and it is pretty complex, but extremely powerful when you get used to it. (I've used it in my current wad to create a new 'monster' of sorts)
yeah, i've been testing it out a bit as well.

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Old Post 12-08-02 20:43 #
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deathz0r
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Rellik said:
I strongly suggest not letting him review any more mods, he's obviously not up to the job.
You want to try it? You want to go through god knows how many piece of shit 10-minute jobs just to hope to find something that's really worth playing?

In fact, this is going to be a message to everyone who has replied so far, who has said that I shouldn't be reviewing them and whatnot. GO WRITE YOUR OWN FUCKING REVIEWS AND STOP CRYING LIKE LITTLE FUCKING CHILDREN. If you think I'm too "immature", or that I don't go through the whole wad, think again, idiots. I always try to finish the level, and I try to judge the difficulty of the level on what the average doomer would expect, not what I expect myself or what some speedrunner who can finish MAP15 in like 10 seconds will expect. If I ever cared about myself about this, I would be a lot more harsher than what I already am now.

I review it for the fun, and to find out what new unmentioned wads are worth playing. If you think I gave a harsh review on your level, talk to me in private, don't bitch about it in here. I will be a lot nicer in private than I ever will here.

In fact, if I gave any of you a link to a random wad, would you review it? Or do you only have the brain power to moan and whine whenever someone writes a "bad" review?

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Old Post 12-08-02 20:55 #
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Enjay
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Cyb said:


That flash only happens on occasion, not enough for it to bug me, and only in 1.23 (as I said the majority of the testing was done in 2.0).



Heh, yeah I wasn't loosing sleep over it either. It's just something I spotted in one of my own wads about a week ago, and got round it by the method described. I'm using Zdoom 2.0 as well BTW (latest version that I'm aware of - vgemma.gemma AKA 19).



It doesn't. In fact I have things in the script specificaly to make sure that very thing doesn't happen...



It must have been one of those odd occurences. I've played 3 times since and not had it happen again.



Anyways, thanks for the input, glad you liked the map.


No problem always a pleasure with quality maps.

You keep makin' 'em, I'll keep playin' 'em. :-)

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Old Post 12-08-02 21:11 #
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Grazza
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myk said:
Hmm, actually Grazza would make an interesting reviewer, from what I know about him...
Thanks, but I don't have the time to commit myself to a regular task like this. Also the /newstuff guy (or girl) ought ideally to be an experienced map-maker as well.


Hyena said:
Grazza: "Frankly, I find deathz0r and hyena's reviews completely useless." Hypocritical, isn't it? "This wad sucks" . . . "This review is useless" I hope you never become a reviewer.
No, it isn't hypocritical. I gave some detailed thoughts on what a reviewer should do in this post. I saw little point repeating them here.

Old Post 12-08-02 21:15 #
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Julian


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Grazza said:
I gave some detailed thoughts on what a reviewer should do in this post. I saw little point repeating them here.

Very good list actually. Tho I still believe the how-it-could-be-better belongs to the beta-testing test, but you usually deal with that when you list the bad points in the review.
Very good list indeed.

Old Post 12-08-02 21:19 #
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deathz0r
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Grazza said:
Thanks, but I don't have the time to commit myself to a regular task like this. Also the /newstuff guy (or girl) ought ideally to be an experienced map-maker as well.
just because you haven't seen my maps, doesn't mean i suck.

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Old Post 12-08-02 21:26 #
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Enjay
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And my £0.02 on the Review style - so what!

It's an opinion. Most Doom projects are small downloads. As often as not, I'll download all the newstuff wads anyway and compare what I thought with the reviewer's opinions. If one reviewer tends to be kind, or harsh, it turns out pretty irrelevant once you get to know that. As often as not, the order of quality is much the same in their opinion and mine. Once you know where a reviewer's benchmark is, you can guage the feel/quality of a level from the review, regardless of review tone.

Sure there are ways of doing it that are more constructive than others, and people's styles differ. As Julian pointed out, it isn't recessarily a reviewers job to be constructive, though some may opt to be.

deathz0r reviews in a harsh way that I wouldn't, and it isn't a style I particularly like but I'm not him (nor am I angling to be a reviewer). That's the way he does it - more power to his elbow - at least he does it. That in itself takes time and commitment. Good on you deathy!

Anything that gets reviewed (movies, books, TV shows, music...) is open to a range of reviewing styles, and thank the maker for it. One style for all would be bland. Variety is the spice of reviewing.

What I am pissed off about is the fact that almost every week the newstuff thread has been less and less about the wads, and more and more about the review style. Note: not even about the content of the reviews, or disagreeing with the opinions expressed, but about the style of review.

Mind you, I guess that now I'm also contributing to the general melee over review style, so I'll quit before I get in too deep.


Edit:


Grazza said:
Also the /newstuff guy (or girl) ought ideally to be an experienced map-maker as well.


I disagree with that one. You don't need to be able to make a map to know what makes a good one. I can't make a movie, but I know which ones I like and why, my musical skills are limited, but I can make informed comments about the choonz I like and why.

Indeed, someone who knows the "nuts and bolts" may actually see too much of the mechanincs of a level and not enough about what makes it fun. Reviews by non map makers, but experienced players may be more enlightening than by people who can identify every trick and lindef type simply by playing through the level.

Maybe there should be a techy review and an aesthetic review for each map. If nothing else, it would give people more to argue over and to clutter up this thread with.

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Last edited by Enjay on 12-08-02 at 21:40

Old Post 12-08-02 21:26 #
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rf`
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Nanami: This is deathz0r we're talking about. He's crazy, so don't let him get to you. Besides I' still trying to beat grind2x.

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Old Post 12-08-02 21:32 #
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deathz0r
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yay to enjay!

It's about time someone moved on from what reviewing styles we specialize in and onto something more relevant.

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Old Post 12-08-02 21:32 #
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mustafa saed
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I hate it when muafuckas bash other peoples hard work
and don't bring shit themselves to the table....cough afterglow....cough.....

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Old Post 12-08-02 21:36 #
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Julian


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mustafa saed said:
I hate it when muafuckas bash other peoples hard work
and don't bring shit themselves to the table....cough afterglow....cough.....


Now that was insightful.

Old Post 12-08-02 21:38 #
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Nanami
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Enjay said:
Maybe there should be a techy review and an aesthetic review for each map. If nothing else, it would give people more to argue over and to clutter up this thread with.


That sounds like a good idea. More than one reviewer would be nice.

And if that was a bomb, at least we'd all have more posts when we complain. =)

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Old Post 12-08-02 21:51 #
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Grazza
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deathz0r said:
just because you haven't seen my maps, doesn't mean i suck.
My comment was in relation to the suggestion that I might review wads: the fact that I have never made any maps (beyond the standard experimenting in a map editor) would make me a less ideal choice than someone with the same credentials who also has mapping experience, IMO.

Old Post 12-08-02 21:51 #
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