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chilvence
Master Procrastinator

Posts: 1147
Registered: 01-03

Aabra said:
In an attempt to bring this topic back to Odamex...

One thing I was really disappointed by was what they decided to base it off. CSDoom is based off version 1.x or something of Zdoom. It's a completely new port, in Alpha.... why not start off with the latest version?

By using the old CSDoom source, I've been told it was immensely easier to convert the source to a GPL license again. That alone should make you happy, because it means anything based on odamex can no longer really take a similar step backwards. There would be no point....

Neither is the future of a port crippled just because it doesn't have the latest zdoom mapping and custom monster/weapon/thematic fridge door bezel support. There are no less than 4 implemented alternatives to the DECORATE+ACS combination, and since to my knowledge they are all GPL, there is nothing stopping Odamex itself from adopting any one of them at one point. In fact Eternity and GZDoom prove there is nothing stopping it from adopting 2 or 5 or making 6 new custom languages. Even further than that, in a recent short conversation with Quasar I was kind of shocked to hear he had written his own version of the ACS interpreter for Eternity, just to avoid the Raven license.

So take out a hanky and blow your nose, and look at the big picture. And also bear in mind being that not being one of the programmers of any of these ports, none of these decisions belong to you. If one was helping, one would have every right to assert ones opinion.

01-22-07 00:50 #

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Aabra
Junior Member

Posts: 103
Registered: 10-05

kristus said:
Aabra: Since you obviously don't have any appreciation for oldschool, there's little sense in you playing Odamex (I realize the irony of this situation), that is aimed at the Oldschool DM scene. There's no need for another Skulltag. A proper oldschool client have been missing for quite some time though. If you really try Odamex out though, you'll notice that it's very different game play wise to just playing Skulltag with Dwango5 in low resolution.

Well, I tried Odamex out for a good hour or so. It's impossible to tell what the gameplay will be like in the final product though as it's still in Alpha stage. I mean.... atm it's laggy as sin, animations are messed up, players constantly warp back and forth, and there are corpses that are stuck in the dying animation (as opposed to the corpse sprite) all over the place! To fix all these bugs the net code is going to have to be significantly altered too so you can't even begin to guess at what the lag is going to be like!
Is the above a fair evaluation of the gameplay? Of course not! I mean it's in Alpha! The game is barely playable at this point. It will be significantly different in the final product. The bottom line really is that aside from it being "doom" neither of us have even the faintest idea of what the gameplay is going to be like. To say otherwise is stupid. It might very well end up just like Skulltag or Zdaemon.

Also... playing Skulltag with Dwango5 in low resolution doesn't give you the *pure* oldschool (aka bugs) that you want... I admit. I never claimed that it did... The idea of that comment was to say that you *should* add those "oldschool" bugs in Odamex. Heck the default settings can be "oldschool". However is it that hard to support the (note extremely lame and dumb) "bump" bug as well as slopes and other more advanced features? *shrug*

Graf Zahl said:
This is the thing I don't understand: What makes supporting Hexen format maps or ACS conflict the engine with the GPL?

None of the code involved is from Hexen! ZDoom supported both Hexen format maps and ACS long before the Hexen source was released. ZDoom's ACS interpreter is completely different from Hexen's and doesn't share a single line of code.

Wow.... I didn't know that. I assumed the code wasn't GPL as that was the reason I was given as to why Hexen maps weren't going to be supported. Somebody please tell me this changes things. Learn something new every day. :)

edit:

Chilvence said:
And also bear in mind being that not being one of the programmers of any of these ports, none of these decisions belong to you.If one was helping, one would have every right to assert ones opinion.

Uhh... I'm just giving my opinion. Is that such a crime? I want Odamex to be a port that I'd like to play/map for. Most people also know that I'm part of the Skulltag Development team so your statements about how I don't help any of these ports is.... wrong.

Last edited by Aabra on 01-22-07 at 01:16

01-22-07 01:08 #

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kristus
Godlike/Doglike

Posts: 5874
Registered: 07-00

I'm 90% sure you can expect Odamex to act like Vanilla Doom. Something that Skulltag will never be doing. Which is fine, cause that's not what Skulltag is about. Just like that it's fine that Odamex isn't Skulltag, cause that's not what Odamex is about.

Skulltag = Newschool.
Odamex = Oldschool.

It's two very different approaches to Doom Multiplayer.

01-22-07 01:16 #

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chilvence
Master Procrastinator

Posts: 1147
Registered: 01-03

Graf Zahl said:

ZDoom's ACS interpreter is completely different from Hexen's and doesn't share a single line of code.

Heh, that makes two! Why do people want to paint a bad picture just because Odamex starts again. You could not have expected in Zdoom 1.22 that one day you would be able to make new monsters with simple text files, or that GZdoom would have let you add sloped 3d constructs and pepper the place with models. And yet just because it can do those things, and despite it being a very nice overall package, you can't say that it is the best version of these things. Even Zdoom itself has bigger plans than what it already does.

01-22-07 01:36 #

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SoM
azerty YAY!

Posts: 188
Registered: 03-02

Graf Zahl said:
This is the thing I don't understand: What makes supporting Hexen format maps or ACS conflict the engine with the GPL?

None of the code involved is from Hexen! ZDoom supported both Hexen format maps and ACS long before the Hexen source was released. ZDoom's ACS interpreter is completely different from Hexen's and doesn't share a single line of code. Ironically Odamex is still using the Hexen linedef types internally. So why was the entire Hexen format map loading code stripped? That I don't get. Oldschool or not, intentionally crippling one's engine doesn't seem like a smart move.

Um... We can't just take code from Zdoom and say it's GPL. If you notice, zdoom is a licensing nightmare because Randy had to honor the various licenses associated with it.

Our purpose is multiplayer. Just Doom + Multiplayer. We took out Hexen source lines because the hexen source isn't GPL and as such, not condusive to releasing the source under the GPL license. All the code we took out was (from what I've seen) taken directly from the Hexen source. Hope I've shed some light on the situation for you.

01-22-07 01:52 #

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Belial
Viva Negativa!

Posts: 788
Registered: 09-05

Hats off to Kristus and Zin for his last post.

Aabra: None of your comments really make any sense to people who play Doom for what it is, not what some port author thinks it should be, so it's not like you're going to convince anyone that Odamex will be inferior.

01-22-07 01:59 #

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Hobbs
Banned

Posts: 1096
Registered: 06-05

Graf Zahl said:
This is the thing I don't understand: What makes supporting Hexen format maps or ACS conflict the engine with the GPL?

None of the code involved is from Hexen! ZDoom supported both Hexen format maps and ACS long before the Hexen source was released.

Doom license code is in conflict with the GPL. And if I had to take a guess all that long-before-hexen-code-release ACS and Hexen map code in ZDoom was (or is whichever applies) under the Doom license. Though Quasar is writing a GPL licensed implementation of the Hexen map format and an ACS interpreter for Eternity that Odamex could use if they wanted...

Aabra: Stick to fucking Skulltag then. As far as I've been able to see thats not the goal of Odamex. If you don't like it then don't play it. Throwing around crap like "GPL fanboyism" and "oldschool is a bit ridiculous" isn't going to win favour with a port that has worked hard to be GPL compliant and has already earned the reputation of being more oldschool.

Zin: uwin.

Last edited by Hobbs on 01-22-07 at 02:17

01-22-07 02:02 #

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Mancubus II
Purple is not a breakfast color

Posts: 1651
Registered: 02-03

Another reason for taking out hexen related matters was to slim it down. You're right about the linedef types though, it's something that we have not yet attended to. Thankfully, as you pointed out it's not necessary in order to be compliant. The hexen map format does us little good, so it was removed for that reason, not just because of licensing concerns.

Aabra, you really need to learn the term of fanboism. We went with the GPL license after long discussions and debate, basing our decision on our philosophies and goals. Simply liking something for good reason and using it does not constitute fanboism in the least. Thanks for trying out odamex though!

01-22-07 02:05 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 4231
Registered: 07-00

Aabra said:
Is it *so* important to use the GPL? You can be open source without it. Use a similar license agreement to Zdoom or whatever. GPL fanboism is a bit ridiculous IMHO.

Yes, it is important. As an example, it would be impossible to get Odamex included in Linux distributions like Debian. If GPL, it can be combined with Freedoom to give a 100% Free Software game. The fact that it is GPL means that the developers can now link against GPL libraries if they wish.

Making it properly GPL will also help to deter people who might want to "pull a ZDaemon" and hoard the source code. After what just happened with Skulltag, the benefits here should be obvious.

The whole idea of "oldschool" is a bit ridiculous to me too. If you support all the new map features.... then you can still obviously play the "oldschool" maps if that's what you want to do.

So why are you playing Doom? There are plenty of other multiplayer games out there. You say that "oldschool" is ridiculous, but you're playing a 13 year old game. What exactly do you expect?

Last edited by fraggle on 01-22-07 at 09:43

01-22-07 09:37 #

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Mancubus II
Purple is not a breakfast color

Posts: 1651
Registered: 02-03

Thanks for hijacking the thread with the same pointless crap arguments that go nowhere guys!

And on to some real news, a mac osx universal binary package is now available for all the mac doomers.

01-23-07 02:48 #

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