The /newstuff Chronicles #300

kristus said:

Personally, I prefer that Doom doesn't accept that the textures or items don't exist, atleast opposed to how Zdoom does it. How many times haven't we played a zdoom map that have had exclamation marks in them, or checker board textures?

Because outputting an error message into the console is enough. But a complete abort just for that is totally ridiculous. This is stone age software development and if I gave something like that to my employer I would be in trouble. You don't abort a program completely for a non-critical problem.

ZDoom makes a distinction between non-critical warnings (they got output into the console), critical errors (resulting in aborting the level (not the program!)) and fatal errors. Only fatal errors stop ZDoom completely and only truly fatal things are handled this way (like a failure to allocate memory etc.)

But a missing texture is not critical. This can be handled by the engine in various ways, the most obvious one to use a replacement that stands out immediately. Interestingly there's some other things that PrBoom silently patches in maps but having a fatal error as the only option in case something goes wrong is just stupid. I considered that stupid with Doom.exe and nothing has changed my view about such things.

And if someone is too lazy to check the output when starting a level don't blame the software, blame the mapper! (or blame the software that can't handle such non-critical problems - which is what I do! :P Ever thought about this when seeing that so many mappers only use ZDoom? Many people don't like software that is impossible to work with during a development stage where error messages are frequent.)

stewboy said:

Meh, the wad seemed pretty popular on ZDaemon. I suppose you don't like Coopbuild or Drown in Blood either? If you've heard of them.

This just goes to prove what I think most people have already realized - the ZDaemon crowd has terrible taste when it comes to coop maps.

Besides, anything that needs infinite ammo is crap not worth playing by default in my book.

Look at it this way:

Today was the 300th /newstuff review. Next time will be the 300th Anniversary of the 1st /newstuff review. So maybe next time we'll get something noteworthy.

Or not. Who am I kidding?

Pauls Map would have been surely much better if he had a different style of texture choice... partially it just seems to be too random and that's what makes the map so cramped :(

Graf Zahl said:

You will *hate* KDiZD then... :D

i don't know. i've seen screenshots. it doesn't seem to suffer from poor texture choice or other bad decisions.

Graf Zahl said:

Anyway, isn't it time for the engines that fail this map to be more forgiving toward misnamed textures? There really isn't any reason why an incorrectly named texture has to result in a merciless abort. This was something that has been annoying me 13 years ago when Doom was new and it's still an attitude in any software I can't accept.

HUGE TROLL saiz: Good, and we are glad in ZDoom based ports its a warning (it really pisses me off when I get a texture error, the difference is, I get pissed at the mapper). Then if it has texture errors it can be advertised as a ZDoom wad (which it appears to be). PrBoom, Eternity, or anything else, shouldn't have to change to compensate for the mapper. It should be the other way around. If that means saying "fuck you" to Boom compat because a wad author cannot get some texture errors fixed then so be it IMO.

Besides, it wouldn't be Boom compat even if it worked in latest Pr or Eternity as well as ZDoom. It would be Boom compat if it worked with Boom ;)

Eternity no longer aborts if a map uses a missing texture; it just displays HOM on the offending line(s). Eternity WILL abort under any of the following circumstances:

* Bad texture directory
* Missing patch in texture
* Column without a patch in composite texture

* Map uses a non-existent flat

The first three are data integrity issues and I don't feel motivated to allow malformed texture directory resources. It may be ZDoom's policy to accept anything thrown at it, but my design philosophy is that formats established as a standard in 1994 should be respected by all users.

The last is an issue I intend to resolve and haven't gotten around to yet.

If EE throws an R_TextureNumForName error, then you are not using v3.33.50 -- time to upgrade!

Hobbs said:

HUGE TROLL saiz: Good, and we are glad in ZDoom based ports its a warning (it really pisses me off when I get a texture error, the difference is, I get pissed at the mapper). Then if it has texture errors it can be advertised as a ZDoom wad (which it appears to be). PrBoom, Eternity, or anything else, shouldn't have to change to compensate for the mapper. It should be the other way around. If that means saying "fuck you" to Boom compat because a wad author cannot get some texture errors fixed then so be it IMO.

Someone is pissed because his favorite port is being an ass! LOL!

You know, I think it's funny if people like you whine and complain about 'teh lazy mappers who only use ZDoom for testing' but completely dismiss the things that make those 'lazy mappers' use ZDoom for testing!

I'm going to use the second clause of my title (this thing has more uses everyday, its like I was given a bill of rights that nobody can miss).

You didn't even read the post you quoted, or didn't give it much consideration. BTW last time I used Pr was to play Sigma, mainly because its a Boom map, usually I use chocodoom. Also my post didn't say anything about "the lazy mappers who only use Zdoom for testing." Oh and PLEASE IGNORE

Where is the review of "Kill Gamarra"?

Quasar said:
Eternity no longer aborts if a map uses a missing texture; it just displays HOM on the offending line(s). Eternity WILL abort under any of the following circumstances:

* Bad texture directory
* Missing patch in texture
* Column without a patch in composite texture

The first 2 are alright to cause errors. After all these are errors. The third one, however is just a plain annoying requirement. Why can't an empty column be treated like an empty column and simply draw nothing (i.e. it is treated as tranaparent?) That would make texture composition much easier. This another one of those utterly pointless Doom restrictions that exist for no reason.

Although for the missing patches I find it better to list all of them and then abort, not abort for each single one of them.

Hobbs said:

Oh and PLEASE IGNORE

So noted.
:P

Graf Zahl said:

You know, I think it's funny if people like you whine and complain about 'teh lazy mappers who only use ZDoom for testing' but completely dismiss the things that make those 'lazy mappers' use ZDoom for testing!

I wouldn't call people who use ZDoom to test limit removing/vanilla/Boom maps lazy. There are other, more suitable words for describing them.

Quite a milestone newstuff. High/low 2 would be my clear pick of the week. A nice E2-style map, and I found it challenging enough, though as I haven't played doom in a while I probably pretty much suck at the moment.

I don't get all this 'intended port' nonsense. I don't recall reading anything in the high/low 2 textfile other than saying it was tested in gzdoom. And anyway, even if it is intended to be 'limit removing', it's not like Chris Hansen would be the first author to make this mistake. It's not a case of 'lazy' mapping. Testing maps for gameplay issues can be tiring enough, let alone having to test maps for gameplay issues in umpteen different ports.

Final Onslaught was a pretty uninspiring map. I guess it would be ok as an intro' level for a multi-map wad, but it doesn't stand well in it's own right. The oversectoring and bad texturing aren't pretty either.

Interesting balance...

A forgiving port allows sloppy, error filled mapping.

A strict port forces error free mapping but may get a reputation as being fussy.

Personally, I like the fact that Zdoom allows me to play some good maps that do have errors that would be terminal in other ports. However, I'd prefer the errors to not be there in the first place. Is it so hard to check maps for these errors when making them?

But yeah, the only references I see to a port in the high/low text are "tested with gzDoom" and "gzdoom -file highlow2.wad -skill x -warp e2m1". I don't see any claims that it will work in any limit removing port, or any port other than GZdoom come to that.

Graf Zahl said:

So where does Highlow2 say it's limit removing?

http://wadsinprogress.info/?a=listwads&wad=764 This says limit removing, so I kind of assumed it was supposed to be limit removing. I guess I was wrong in making such an assumption.

As a dedicated Doom map author I am always aiming to give the players a new and hopefully good experience with Doom. Therefore it saddens me to see that my latest level didn't exactly do this to all of you. In my defense I would just like to add that it wasn't a case of being lazy, more a case of simply forgetting to test it more thorougly. I have never experienced such sourceport compatibility issues before (afaik) with my levels and I have no good ideas as to why it happened this time. There are always new things to learn and hopefully "High/Low 3" will be a better release.

Agent Spork's review of High/Low 2 is Not recommended.

Being able to get keys early is a feature, not a bug.

Fredrik said:

Being able to get keys early is a feature, not a bug.

You can get it really easy though and very early. In fact, I got it so early by what I thought was supposed to be the correct method that I decided to explore for a bit to see what was around before I went through the red door - only to discover that, when I found the correct way, I had gotten the red key the incorrect way totally by accident (and no, I didn't use the jump button).

Also, in the baron room, after killing the barons, I flicked the switch and sidestepped back from it only to end up trapped in a little room off to the side of the map. Looking at it in the editor, it looks like it is intended to make one of the barons teleport away and then go somewhere else later. However, the baron couldn't have activated the teleport when his pit raised and so I did instead and ended up stuck. Surely it should be a monster teleport only line?

All that being said, I did enjoy the map. I thought it looked good, was quite Ep2-ish without being an Ep2 clone. Excellent use of height variation and some good fun battles in interesting areas. Some interesting uses of architecture and structures too.

I also enjoyed Final Onslaught Map 01. Yes, perhaps the gameplay was a bit too easy but it was reasonably paced for the first map in a set. I thought the look of it was very well done. There was some excellent, and total use of slopes. Whats more, it wasn't just slopes. There was a lot of use of angled lines to compliment the slopes and give the Doom textures an additional dimension, bringing life to many of the structures they were supposed to be representing all along.

Hell Keep Remake was also fun. Definitely E3M1 ish and definitely "keepy". I thought it could have done with more monsters. I know the battles are in keeping ( :P ) with the original, but this map has more space and so could have done with a few more bad guys to maintain the enemy density.

Bloodshedder said:

I thought I already told you since I accidentally made you do deathz0r's week that your slot for this /newstuff was given up?

I don't remember you telling me that, but I'm forgetful and I probably should have realized that anyway.

Yay nothing got a recommendation. My recommendation, stop reviewing.

Why is Chris Hansen's next High/Low going to be Doom II themed? I would think High/Low 3 would be E3, and then maybe Doom II as High/Low 4, if there was one. I'd like to see both, but there are so few E3-esque maps, and I would really like to see one in this series.

Fusion said:

Yay nothing got a recommendation. My recommendation, stop reviewing.

Not my fault this was a rather boring week. Oh, and the hell keep remake got a recommendation. I'd recommend High/Low 2 if Chris Hansen would fix the small errors in the map, as well.

EDIT: Also, I like cheese. That is all.

Graf Zahl said:

The first 2 are alright to cause errors. After all these are errors. The third one, however is just a plain annoying requirement. Why can't an empty column be treated like an empty column and simply draw nothing (i.e. it is treated as tranaparent?) That would make texture composition much easier. This another one of those utterly pointless Doom restrictions that exist for no reason.

Although for the missing patches I find it better to list all of them and then abort, not abort for each single one of them.

I'd tell you if I could figure out the code that builds composite textures :P It is quite a horrific mess. Until I can manipulate said code with total fluency, I will not attempt to remove that limitation.

Fusion said:

Yay nothing got a recommendation. My recommendation, stop reviewing.

I agree with Agent Spork, it's not his fault most of the submissions this week were crappy... i think the reviews were all rather fair!

RoneKyakone said:

Why is Chris Hansen's next High/Low going to be Doom II themed? I would think High/Low 3 would be E3, and then maybe Doom II as High/Low 4, if there was one. I'd like to see both, but there are so few E3-esque maps, and I would really like to see one in this series.

i agree fully! for that matter, what about E4 (which was a much creepier, fleshier vision of hell than E3)

High/Low 2 was tons of fun, and I think it was relatively pretty. The highlight of the week for sure.

Oh noes! Chris! Don't explain yourself, it's not allowed here! :O
*bitter ensuings*

Quasar said:

I'd tell you if I could figure out the code that builds composite textures :P It is quite a horrific mess. Until I can manipulate said code with total fluency, I will not attempt to remove that limitation.

You could do the same as ZDoom did: rewrite the entire texture system. That'd give also the option to have flats on walls and vice versa. ;)
(Yes, I know - it's a lot of work...)

RoneKyakone said:

Why is Chris Hansen's next High/Low going to be Doom II themed? I would think High/Low 3 would be E3, and then maybe Doom II as High/Low 4, if there was one. I'd like to see both, but there are so few E3-esque maps, and I would really like to see one in this series.

I'll take that into consideration. Especially since the recent development of High/Low 3 hasn't exactly turned out as originally intended. Don't get me wrong, it's going to be a good level, I am just finding it really difficult to capture the general Doom 2 city level theme.

i always felt doom 2 had quite a few themes.

among the themes doom 2 used:

earth-based installation (maps 1-11, complete with less polished waste tunnels and maintenance sectors)

industrial/city sections (maps 12-20, with interspersed "castle"-like sections here and there that may have been human structures for totally benign purpouses once, as well as certain later levels such as maps 24 and 26)

earth's slow subversion by demonic influence (similar to deimos' mixture of pre-existing technology with lovecraftian horror) (maps 21, 23, 25, 27)

large, cavernous hell (maps 28, 29, 30)