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Risen
Warming Up


Posts: 26
Registered: 07-02


KDIZD isn't a remake, it's a reinterpretation. The difference is that a remake replicates the original, (sometimes with minor enhancements,) and a reinterpretation allows much more freedom in redeveloping the original resources and in adding to them. A remake would not have allowed so many new map areas, monsters, weapons, etc. KDIZD is quite obviously a reinterpretation and not a remake.

fraggle is correct that the general level of skill present in players today is much greater than it was when Doom was released. One of our goals with KDIZD was to allow those players to enjoy something E1-like with enhanced difficulty to match. Yes, it is more difficult. It was completely intentional. In fact, it's written in the text file to make people aware. Difficulty settings have been implemented, but none go nearly as low as you'd find in the original E1.

Deathz0r, it was an unfortunate oversight that the person who included your resource did not make appropriate arrangements with you. If you would still like it removed, we are planning a re-release and would be happy to accommodate you in that regard.

Old Post 06-18-07 14:14 #
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deathz0r
Bitch fuckin' stole me chaingun!


Posts: 3617
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Risen said:
Deathz0r, it was an unfortunate oversight that the person who included your resource did not make appropriate arrangements with you. If you would still like it removed, we are planning a re-release and would be happy to accommodate you in that regard.
Thanks for the humble apology. I'll have to think about what I want to happen, as most of the anger from my reaction is gone.

Old Post 06-18-07 14:39 #
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exp(x)


Posts: 2595
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Reviews of user-made levels for Doom should be thorough and complete; otherwise they violate the sanctity of the seriousness of the Internet. One who is not able or willing to abide by this simple tenet is absolutely unqualified and should not post his or her review on the Internet. Stating opinions is allowable, but making an unqualified review is not. It is because of this, that I chastise you, deathz0r. You have repeatedly made a mockery of the Internet by posting your unqualified reviews of user-made Doom levels, and I demand that this stops. I fear that if instances such as this do not cease, the Internet is undoubtedly headed for a dark age, where seriousness is no longer upheld. As an important member of this community, and as a serious citizen of the Internet, I request that you resign from your position as /newstuff reviewer.

Old Post 06-18-07 14:45 #
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Kaiser
Doom64 Guru


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Fredrik said:
There's been enough drama for two or three dwforums WADs.


I demand dwforum4 and 5

Old Post 06-18-07 14:57 #
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Afterglow
TROLL; IGNORE


Posts: 307
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kristus said:
It's way too easy to get you people going.

yeah you're such a dirty girl arent you year girl why dont you jack off daddy yeah take daddy's hard cock in your tiny little doll hands oh yeah that feels so good now jerk daddy's cock off back and forth you little whore oh yeah

Old Post 06-18-07 15:03 #
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Risen
Warming Up


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deathz0r said:
Thanks for the humble apology. I'll have to think about what I want to happen, as most of the anger from my reaction is gone.


Let us know. We'll assume that it's out unless we hear otherwise from you. If you'd like it to stay in and you want your full name in the credits, please be sure to send that to me.

Old Post 06-18-07 15:20 #
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myk
volveré y seré millones


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deathz0r said:
There's no denying that KDIZD is beautifully designed though.
Not sure about that. Diligently and skillfully designed, yes, but I find there are many wads that are more attractive than this one, including the original Knee Deep in the Dead levels themselves, and many PWADs that aim for a relatively clean and smooth environment, especially if they get their layout and texturing right. I'd rank the technical use of ZDoom features, and perhaps even the general game play, above visuals (which vary from decent, to good or better, to cluttered, to sometimes clunky, and to which contribute the sprites, which aren't always very consistent) here. Judging what I played, at least (levels 1-6).


Vader said:
Honestly, what's the point of this "review"?
Why should it necessarily be a complete review, at this point, where the wad has already been heavily commented, more that most other wads. There's the special coop thing pritch and the guys did, as well as many comments in the database, various threads of discussion here (I haven't even checked other forums), and ReX's extensive and indepth review.


I'd rather have no Newstuff at all, than reading through half-assed pseudo reviews.
In that case, you can stop reading it where you notice you don't need it or like it, just like deathz0r stopped playing KDiZD. In effect, you kind of agree in practice with what he did by implying the same thing about the reviews: What if he concluded KDiZD was "pointless"?

But in a way, I kind of feel identified with what death0r did with the review. It's true that level 3 was somewhat annoying as he says, though I managed to play though it (the first plays of such maps being the worst, as later one becomes familiar with what each thing does) but eventually I really had to drop off at level 6 because it made me queasy. I'm looking forward to trying levels 7-10 at one point (hoping playing from scratch" is humanly possible, or at least by starting at the 7th), since some people have said some good things about them.


Risen said:
KDIZD isn't a remake, it's a reinterpretation.
There isn't much of a difference between the words, as any remake reinterprets, but all in all, KDiZD is an extension, in feature capabilities as well as general layout.

Both remakes and extensions are reinterpretations of something that has already been made.

Last edited by myk on 06-18-07 at 16:49

Old Post 06-18-07 16:43 #
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BlackFish
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Kaiser said:


I demand dwforum4 and 5



I second this motion.

Old Post 06-18-07 17:44 #
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caco_killer
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I don't think there's anything wrong with what deathzor said, but I do think Graf shouldn't take it so personally.

Old Post 06-18-07 17:53 #
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AlexMax
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I think this needs to be stated again, because some people don't get it.

IF YOU DON'T THINK THAT /NEWSTUFF's REVIEWING IS UP TO YOUR STANDARDS, STOP READING IT!!!

Seriously, if you're unhappy with the quality of /newstuff and don't think it's worth paying attention to, stop reading it. Is this really that hard of a concept for people to grasp, especially after numerous threads bitching about how dean is a terrible newstuff reviewer and how he should be fired and replaced with someone respectable and oh my god my ego. *SHOT*


caco_killer said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with what deathzor said, but I do think Graf shouldn't take it so personally.


I completely agree. However, it's kind of hard not to when some asshole who can post news and reviews on one of the most highly trafficed Classic Doom webpages on the internet only played three levels of his megawad before getting sick of it.

So here's something he can take personally, so he can save face.

*ahem*

Graf Zahl, you are a mong. A complete and utter mong.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:10 #
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Graf Zahl
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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Yeah, let's accept the low quality of the reviews and not try to do something about it...
Some solution. Ignorance never was a good means to solve a problem.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:12 #
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caco_killer
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Graf Zahl said:
Yeah, let's accept the low quality of the reviews and not try to do something about it...
Some solution. Ignorance never was a good means to solve a problem.



Would you say this if deathzor was reviewing another highly-anticipated wad that you weren't involved with?

Old Post 06-18-07 18:15 #
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AlexMax
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Graf Zahl said:
Yeah, let's accept the low quality of the reviews and not try to do something about it...
Some solution. Ignorance never was a good means to solve a problem.



People long before you have made their opinion of deathz0r perfectly clear, and yet he remains onboard as one of the longest lasting reviewers. Concerning review quality, deathz0r is only accountable to the Doomworld administrators, and Doomworld has no obligation to you, me or anyone to provide fair and balanced reviews. If you don't like it, leave.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:21 #
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alterworldruler
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Graf Zahl said:
Yeah, let's accept the low quality of the reviews and not try to do something about it...
Some solution. Ignorance never was a good means to solve a problem.

Just stop being so idiotic graf >> deathz0r's review is only an opinion and if you take that seriously then something is WRONG with your pile of text and flaming... flaming is only making your face look like a moron

Old Post 06-18-07 18:24 #
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zap610
JETSONZ KREW 4LYF


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Graf Zahl said:
Yeah, let's accept the low quality of the reviews and not try to do something about it...
Some solution. Ignorance never was a good means to solve a problem.



Funny you should say that. People used that advice on kdizd and gave ideas, then were flamed without reason by people like you. Go ahead and say "plenty of people were just flaming kdizd" that is somewhat true. But people like you used that to your advantage and made anyone who disliked it seem like a troll. And what the hell is your problem with the review? If you don't want it to be reviewed don't submit it to a place where you know it is going to be reviewed.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:27 #
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DooMAD
Bitcoin IS a religion.


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Graf Zahl said:
his usual blend of sanctimonious, overly opinionated, half-baked drivel.

I've grown tired of reading the inane ramblings of a pompous windbag. Congratulations Graf, you're the first person in the history of the internet to make it onto my ignore list. You truly are a monumental fuckwit.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:28 #
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Fredrik


Posts: 11685
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Graf Zahl said:
Yeah, let's accept the low quality of the reviews and not try to do something about it...
Some solution. Ignorance never was a good means to solve a problem.

I've nothing to say really, just jumping on the quotewagon.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:30 #
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pritch
Super Moderator


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Graf Zahl said:
Yes, they are. You are not qualified to rate a product if you haven't seen it completely.

Oh dear.

There are many esteemed critics of the Arts who have walked out of productions at the interval because they found the production interminable. It is possible to be so put off by one part of something that it impossibly wrecks the experience as a whole.

Prose reviews of subjective experiences like gaming are not analyses by percentages. They are not scientific treatises. They are about feelings and emotional responses.

In Deathie's case, he was so annoyed by Z1M3 that it ruined the entire experience for him. That is not unprofessional, nor incompetency. That is honesty. Many reviewers might have gone on to clip through the next maps and make some comments about lighting, or item placement but deathz0r embellished nothing. I don't agree with him btw, but I respect him for having the balls not to bullshit this community.

Nobody reads a review of a Doom wad because they are interested in a quantative analysis. We can all do that. If they read it it's to identify with deathz0r's experiences and opinions because he is actually a respected member of the older core of doomers who has been in this community as long as anyone and has a comprehensive playing experience from which to base his opinions on newer wads. They also know they'll get a bit of a laugh and enjoyment out of him, things which can never be had out of you.

And where I feel that deathzor, whilst probably having a bit of an ego of his own, is motivated to help and contribute to this site primarily out of selflessness and a desire to keep the newstuff chronicles going when all else around him have deserted, you are motivated exclusively by your ego.

Through ego you made your own sourceport, the necessity of which is at best debatable. Through ego you have refused to accept any criticism of KDiZD whatsoever even when other members of the team have admitted it has some shortcomings. And as if that weren't enough your ego now has you in here declaring the newstuff chronicles dead because deathzor dared to criticise you and fail to follow your misguided interpretation of what constitutes a review.

I for one have had enough of your ego. You have no say whatsoever in how deathzor does or does not review wads for newstuff, and you absolutely have no right to try and undermine newstuff. The next time you make a comment to the same point I will ban you from the forums.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:39 #
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AlexMax
Senior Member


Posts: 1115
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pritch said:
I for one have had enough of your ego. You have no say whatsoever in how deathzor does or does not review wads for newstuff, and you absolutely have no right to try and undermine newstuff. The next time you make a comment to the same point I will ban you from the forums.


Countdown to Graf Zahl leaving the forums on his own accord with some stupid sarcastic dig as his parting shot to make some vain attempt to believe that he got the "last word" in 5...4...3...2...

Old Post 06-18-07 18:43 #
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Graf Zahl
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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AlexMax said:


Countdown to Graf Zahl leaving the forums on his own accord with some stupid sarcastic dig as his parting shot to make some vain attempt to believe that he got the "last word" in 5...4...3...2...




You would like that, wouldn't you?
No such luck pal.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:48 #
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AlexMax
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Graf Zahl said:
You would like that, wouldn't you?
No such luck pal.



I was just stating it just in case you DID do it would be even more humerous. Either you go out like a moron and I get to say "I told you so", you stick around and likely get banned or you just plain stop posting without the obligitory ego-booster parting shot, which is probably the best course of action for saving face (but something you're not likely to do). It's a win-win-win situation all around.

Pay attention, class, this is internet flamewars 101, and there will be a test.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:55 #
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Use3D
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Graf Zahl said:
Yeah, let's accept the low quality of the reviews and not try to do something about it...



I'm still lost as to why you care. Countless times you have little regard for anyone's opinion on various subjects (especially anyone here), you already have zdoom forums slathering over kdizd like it's the second coming, sure is an awful big stink over some guy's opinion of your wad on Doomworld of all places. You're not going to change anything here, you're definitly not going to change death0r, its naive to think otherwise. You also already know hundreds of people have played zdidz and most of them like it. Just let it be ffs.

Oh yeah I've become sick of this wad drama LONG AGO. This will be my last post on the subject. Good luck with what's left of the team if they decide to do another project.

Old Post 06-18-07 18:57 #
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AlexMax
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Use3D said:
...you already have zdoom forums slathering over kdizd like it's the second coming...


Seriously. You already have a forum full of people sucking your collective schlong over how KDIZD is the greatest wad ever, why do you need our opinion?

Old Post 06-18-07 19:00 #
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zap610
JETSONZ KREW 4LYF


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Converting non-believers is half the fun! :D

Old Post 06-18-07 19:02 #
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Darmuss
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I think the reviewer was a bit lazy this time.

I expected more detail. :(

Old Post 06-18-07 19:20 #
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myk
volveré y seré millones


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Darmuss said:
I expected more detail. :(
I expected more wads (which was not the case because the archive admin is human and needs vacations, like anyone).

Old Post 06-18-07 19:30 #
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Dutch Doomer
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Can't we just be one big happy family.

Old Post 06-18-07 19:58 #
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Nes
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Graf Zahl said:
Yes, they are. You are not qualified to rate a product if you haven't seen it completely.


Ha ha! Qualification.

Old Post 06-18-07 20:06 #
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Mancubus II
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zap610 said:
And what the hell is your problem with the review? If you don't want it to be reviewed don't submit it to a place where you know it is going to be reviewed.

This part is not particularly fair because tnc is NOT directly connected to the archives. As has been explained before, tnc reviews are reviews of whatever falls into the /newstuff dir. People should always be encouraged to contribute content of at least a minimum quality standard.

Old Post 06-18-07 20:42 #
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Vader
Member


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myk said:

Why should it necessarily be a complete review, at this point, where the wad has already been heavily commented, more that most other wads. There's the special coop thing pritch and the guys did, as well as many comments in the database, various threads of discussion here (I haven't even checked other forums), and ReX's extensive and indepth review.



Well, sure there were and propably will be more in-depth reviews and comments on the Mod, but the Newstuff chronicles is still the thing I consider being the "official" review of any wad from the Idgames database.
I was really looking forward to this review (regardeless if the reviewer liked it or not!) and when I saw the news post on the top of the page I was really excited to read through... however, seeing the articel having almost no information in it, other than Deathzor didn't like M3 and the paragraph about the stolen midi, was a huge disappointment for me!


myk said:

In that case, you can stop reading it where you notice you don't need it or like it, just like deathz0r stopped playing KDiZD. In effect, you kind of agree in practice with what he did by implying the same thing about the reviews: What if he concluded KDiZD was "pointless"?



That would propably have been the best solution, however I did read through the review (wich wasn't that hard considering the length), although I think it's pointless.
If Deathzor thinks KDiZD is pointless, then why did he bother to write something about it at all? He maybe could have handed it to someone else, willing to do a guest review, or just refuse to review it and put Rex's reviews up!
It's hard to express my thoughts here, but basically I agree with Graf Zahl on this point; you can't give a proper review of something you haven't seen all of it.
Sure, you may come across something that you really dislike about a Doom-project, movie, etc. ,but how can one judge how "heavy this negative point(s) weight" in a whole if you haven't seen everything else to compare it to?
In my book, that's what a reviewer is supposed to do;
tell about his impressions of the wad in a whole.

It's of course something different if such an annoyance is carried through the entire wad and thus makes it frustrating to continue playing, but in this case M3 is just a fraction of the whole wich just could have been skipped.

Anyway, since the team got a compliment from John Romero himself I'm happy :)

Old Post 06-18-07 20:44 #
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