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myk
The Disciple of Lüt


Posts: 9975
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MikeRS said:
I didn't see the .plan article
Here's a direct link to it. Check out the April 8th update.

Old Post 08-07-07 05:33 #
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Jodwin
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iD deciding not to include a source port in the Steam release was a good decision. Not because Vanilla would provide the "real" experience, but because if they did include any port, that would be saying "We endorse this port, not the one you are working on, and we don't even CARE what you think, so why don't you just go and hang yourself, shoot your brains out or something because we didn't include YOUR port."

A lot less pointless drama this way.

Old Post 08-07-07 09:16 #
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Jonathan
I am not a leet hax0r :(


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myk said:
The port is replacing a component of the actual game, a piece that was made by id, while the emulator is only an added component that allows it to function on today's expected machine and OS. As it is (in the package), the game works on the systems that it was originally released for, plus modern or state of the art ones emulating it.
Yes, that's an explanation of the difference between a bundled source port and an emulator, but it doesn't actually address my actual question of how the latter is easier than the former does it?


myk said:
As far as a stable build of a port is concerned, that would be for now, supposedly, but how long that lasts also depends on it being supported so that it remains stable, something they can't guarantee without an effort (now and later).
Yes, and the situation is exactly the same with the DOSBox project as it is with a source port.


myk said:
I think that what he says at the end counts, as well. That they aren't going to make any of them official. Carmack knows there are many engines people use, with different features and aims, and (especially without putting work onto it) doesn't want to present one as backed by them. Otherwise some developers would be discouraged because people would say stuff like "uh, Port-A sucks, id sanctioned Port-B as the engine to use!"
Yeah, and just releasing the original Doom.exe will make people say "uh, all the ports suck, none of them are as good as the original engine". Except actually it won't, that's just me putting stupid words in peoples' mouths the same as you are.

And in any case, who cares even if it would give ammunition to a tiny minority of partisan Doom nerds. Or, for that matter, who cares if some port authors would start crying because they hadn't received id's blessing. Frankly, they shouldn't be such babies, and understand that including a no-frills native Windows port isn't conferring it some special status, it's just a way to deliver a better experience to their customers, which should always be the highest priority over and above the egos of port developers. Not that I actually think that would be the case, as I think most, if not all, port developers are eminently sensible people, not hysterical drama-weaving loons.

Old Post 08-07-07 11:23 #
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Csonicgo
This post is probably useless


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leileilol said:


Since Wolf3d is a real mode game you'll have to manually configure cycles (preferably to 'max')



that explains it

it also makes my computer go to shit too, I guess Virtualization is the best way to play wolf3d (or ntvdm which seems to play the game perfectly aside from sound)

Old Post 08-07-07 13:45 #
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Mike.Reiner
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Lol, I still have Wolf3D and the original Doom2.exe 1.9......... and an old machine running Windows 98se that plays it all perfectly.

At the very least they could have whipped up something similar to chocolate doom... from what I can tell that engine literally aims to be Doom2.exe for windows.

Old Post 08-07-07 16:08 #
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skadoomer
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John is right, it was fairly obvious that it came down to support. If they had chosen say, Boom to package into this release, then Id would have to read and answer the woeful cries of people who experienced crashes, bugs, performance issues and the sort. This would be true of any port, regardless of platform or popularity. Factor in some of the complicated licenses that surround some ports and it becomes a much bigger headache than its worth. For once though, it could have possibly cleaned out some of the internal conflicts some ports have with raven software and there lack of GPL licenses. In my magical fantasy land, I could see this being a chance to rectify that mistake. But then again I'm sure that ID has more important things to do aside from take time away from building Rage to peruse a legal battle over a 13 year old piece of software.

Old Post 08-07-07 18:25 #
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Shaikoten
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skadoomer said:
John is right, it was fairly obvious that it came down to support. If they had chosen say, Boom to package into this release, then Id would have to read and answer the woeful cries of people who experienced crashes, bugs, performance issues and the sort. This would be true of any port, regardless of platform or popularity. Factor in some of the complicated licenses that surround some ports and it becomes a much bigger headache than its worth. For once though, it could have possibly cleaned out some of the internal conflicts some ports have with raven software and there lack of GPL licenses. In my magical fantasy land, I could see this being a chance to rectify that mistake. But then again I'm sure that ID has more important things to do aside from take time away from building Rage to peruse a legal battle over a 13 year old piece of software.

So now it's an issue of supporting DOSBOX? This logic to me seems flawed because I've seen a lot more people complaining about issues with DOSBOX than issues with certain, more stable sourceports.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, I don't care either way about this whole deal. How is this really even an issue for any of us? By this point, don't most of us already have all of these wads? I mean, if you guys REALLY want our online sourceport communities flooded by CS kids...

Old Post 08-07-07 19:18 #
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leileilol
dork stalker


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because you can't play with netplay as advertised in the steam store.

Old Post 08-07-07 19:22 #
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Linguica


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Shaikoten said:
So now it's an issue of supporting DOSBOX?
They don't have to bother to support DOSBox since it's not technically their product. Pass the buck.

I mean, if you guys REALLY want our online sourceport communities flooded by CS kids...
Oh another Doom elitist, how quaint. God forbid we sully our high class community with the grubby pawprints of the common peons.

Old Post 08-07-07 19:25 #
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RazTK
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leileilol said:
because you can't play with netplay as advertised in the steam store.
However, you can use DOSBox to launch a multiplayer Vanilla DOOM game.

Old Post 08-07-07 19:49 #
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leileilol
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RazTK said:
However, you can use DOSBox to launch a multiplayer Vanilla DOOM game.


how are you going to do that without SETUP.EXE?

Old Post 08-07-07 20:10 #
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RazTK
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Oh wow, it really sucks if they didn't include SETUP.EXE and IPXSETUP.EXE.

Why didn't they?

Old Post 08-07-07 20:17 #
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Linguica


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RazTK said:
Oh wow, it really sucks if they didn't include SETUP.EXE and IPXSETUP.EXE.

Why didn't they?

Would you really be able to play multiplayer anyway? Does DOSBox have some IPX -> TCP/IP wrapper built in?

Old Post 08-07-07 20:28 #
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RazTK
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Linguica said:
Would you really be able to play multiplayer anyway? Does DOSBox have some IPX -> TCP/IP wrapper built in?
It's emulating IPX over UDP/IP AFAIK.

Old Post 08-07-07 20:29 #
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VinceDSS
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Mike.Reiner said:
Lol, I still have Wolf3D and the original Doom2.exe 1.9......... and an old machine running Windows 98se that plays it all perfectly.



ditto :)

and on the other hand I understand that Id and steam do not wish to endorse any ports as that would skew the public opinion...

As for dosbox 0.70 , it runs very decently on my amd64 3000+ that's almost 3 year old... problems only start with really crowded maps such as Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta :)


RazTK said:
It's emulating IPX over UDP/IP AFAIK.


and very well actually ....

Old Post 08-08-07 04:28 #
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myk
The Disciple of Lüt


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Jonathan said:
but it doesn't actually address my actual question of how the latter is easier than the former does it?
Naturally, as it wasn't my intention to answer that directly. Neither is easier than the other as far as copying the files into the package is concerned, but what I answered points to why they'd do what they did.


Yes, and the situation is exactly the same with the DOSBox project as it is with a source port.
Except that the community engine choice requires work, especially because unlike with the other choice, they are modifying the actual product.


Yeah, and just releasing the original Doom.exe will make people say "uh, all the ports suck, none of them are as good as the original engine". Except actually it won't, that's just me putting stupid words in peoples' mouths the same as you are.
Whether it would put words into anyone's mouth or what exact effects it would have is a secondary result, but I doubt Carmack would meddle with the community which he always takes as independent from id without acting directly (therefore taking responsibility for becoming involved). Like he said, they would put effort into updating the engine (or choosing from existing ones), and without that effort, they're not going to make an official addition.


Frankly, they shouldn't be such babies, and understand that including a no-frills native Windows port isn't conferring it some special status, it's just a way to deliver a better experience to their customers, which should always be the highest priority over and above the egos of port developers.
Carmack has always been quite keen at noticing where to cut on effort in order to concentrate on what he considers bigger or more relevant things. I'd say that aside from his evident skill and foresight that's his main virtue. I'm sure he's aware people will sort themselves out (for example, typing doom on Google gives links to Doomworld and the game's Wikipedia article on the first page, both quite helpful to anyone seeking to troubleshoot or enhance their gaming experience), and that emulation will only get better as people's average systems get more powerful.

Old Post 08-08-07 05:45 #
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RTC_Marine
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Posts: 421
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I tried doom on dosbox over the ipx over udp code it has
with dashiva quite a few months ago (with 0.63 iirc), it
ran pretty damn well, even if our connections were really
laggy (NZ -> US.. ugh)

Old Post 08-09-07 00:41 #
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MasterOfPuppets
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what would have been really nice is if Steam packaged some information about source ports and how to use them - as I imagine most people who end up buying Doom through Steam will be ignorant of what the Doom community has been doing over the last decade.

just bugs me to imagine some CS heads shelling out $10 for Doom 2 and not realizing that they could also be enjoying droves of user made content :(

Old Post 08-09-07 01:05 #
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Bastet Furry
THE WERELION


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DJ_Haruko said:
[...] DOSBox much since the most I ever use it for is writing QBasic programs for work.

You know of the existence of FreeBasic, a GPL'ed reimplementation of QB45 in 32 bit plus some other extras for Win32, Linux and even DOS?

@Topic:
People who are really interested in Doom will find the ports soon enough.
Couldnt hurt if Steam mentions it as an unsupported way of playing Doom, though. :)

@Shaikoten:
GTFO elitist idiot...

Old Post 08-09-07 01:17 #
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Eric Vaughn
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Does zDoom work with Steam Doom?

Old Post 08-09-07 13:10 #
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doom2day
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RazTK said:
Are you using the latest version of DOSBox (which is 0.71 right now)?

Time to download a fourth version of dosbox...

Old Post 08-09-07 13:30 #
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YMB
Old newfag


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Eric Vaughn said:
Does zDoom work with Steam Doom?

Yes, all you need is the IWAD to use zDoom.

Old Post 08-09-07 14:14 #
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amberleaf
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Can you imagine the impact of a new wave of players from steam? I personally think it would be good for the community. I know a few older players might be a little miffed but the short term impact of noobs would be outweighed by the possible future mappers and players that would almost surely join us.

Old Post 08-09-07 19:43 #
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Bucket
ROCK & LOAD
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I've seen a pretty steady influx of people to the community ever since I found this site. That was through the release of Doom 3 and the XBox Live version of UDoom. It's been on Steam almost a week now; if there were some explosion of new players, it'd be happening by now.

Old Post 08-09-07 19:47 #
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amberleaf
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I think it'd be happening if they had a choice of ports to launch with. Call me stupid but about 5 or 6 years ago I wanted to play doom online and didnt know what to do.......shit, I even tried to use some of the exes that were on my doom2 cd to dial up and play.

I didnt have a clue about ports until I found this site. If steam players knew about the ports and the /idgames archive it would be a big plus for the doom community.

Its fine saying "let them find us" but I really think we could have all gained a lot from this.

Old Post 08-09-07 22:29 #
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myk
The Disciple of Lüt


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How's that? They won't browse the Internet for info on the game they just bought because it includes the DOS engine?

Since Steam is heavily online based it is even more likely that Steam users will end up on sites on the net than if they were to buy the game through other means.

As for online (MultiPlayer) access, there'd be a real difference only if they added a C/S engine, and the ones that are regularly used by people in the community aren't even under the GPL.

Old Post 08-10-07 00:31 #
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sargebaldy
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I don't see how it's anything to wonder about. I suppose using Chocolate Doom would have made more sense, but I think it'd be appalling to package it with a more advanced port. Sure, it's a nice option, but Doom loses a lot in translation. A few weeks ago I played through Episode 1 again in Chocolate Doom, and it's just not the same experience you get playing it in ZDoom (or Eternity, unless you make it a point of reducing the resolution to 320x200 and turning off mouselook.) One reason being that the gameplay just isn't the same. Playing lo-res vanilla Doom is far more challenging than ZDoom at 1280x800 (and if you're playing at 1280x1024 the sprites are all distorted).

Old Post 08-10-07 13:53 #
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Jon
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amberleaf said:
Can you imagine the impact of a new wave of players from steam? I personally think it would be good for the community. I know a few older players might be a little miffed but the short term impact of noobs would be outweighed by the possible future mappers and players that would almost surely join us.


Communities die without new blood, as inevitably people leave. Within the doom community, many people are "noobs" compared to others anyway.

Old Post 08-10-07 14:32 #
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Linguica


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Shut up 09-00 noob

Old Post 08-10-07 16:12 #
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david_a


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Linguica said:
I wish I still had all my emails from the early days of Doomworld because I swear that I had an email from John Carmack saying something about maybe doing a "Doom2000" with new levels and Boom as the engine.

I know this is a bit late, but I took a wrong turn on the information superhighway and ended up at the Doomworld mailbag. One of the topics was reactions/hopes for a possible Doom2000.

I had totally forgotten how Real Serious Business source ports were back in the day :)

Old Post 08-10-07 18:58 #
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