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KuriKai
Junior Member

Posts: 112
Registered: 10-04

The Doom Hires texture Pack has just been released and is available here. New in this version are all ICKWALL textures, a few tweaks to some existing textures, and inclusion of Final Doom textures. If anyone wants to help make textures, they can go here.

11-11-07 13:48 #

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Xtife
Member

Posts: 335
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how complete is this?

11-11-07 18:20 #

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GzStarWars
Banned

Posts: 158
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No GzDOOM support. Not even ZDOOM, shocking!

11-11-07 19:21 #

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CodeImp
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The textures are really nice! Too bad it isn't complete and has some really stupid mistakes. But this is certainly a good asset for those who wish to make new maps with new textures, which the readme says you can't :(

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11-11-07 19:32 #

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Graf Zahl
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CodeImp said:
Too bad it isn't complete and has some really stupid mistakes.

Oh shit! Color mismatch aside, this looks UGLY!

I'll stay with the original textures for sure.

11-11-07 20:01 #

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John Smith
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GzStarWars said:
No GzDOOM support. Not even ZDOOM, shocking!

Positively scandalous wouldn't you agree my dear boy.

11-11-07 20:10 #

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Schneelocke
Forum Regular

Posts: 744
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John Smith said:
Positively scandalous wouldn't you agree my dear boy.

Goodness gracious. Oh, my paws and whiskers. It's just beyond the pale... it's ... oh, my heavens... say, is it a bit stuffy in here? I think I'm going to... could I have a glass of... oh, dear *thud*

(EDIT: Needless to say - I hope -, I actually like the texture pack, unlike various Sesame Street-inspired naysayers.)

Last edited by Schneelocke on 11-12-07 at 07:42

11-11-07 21:15 #

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DaniJ
Forum Regular

Posts: 864
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Don't feel disheartened by the naysayers Kurikai. I get the same sort of shit from people about the Team SOG models (even though I didn't even make the damn things!). They usually come from people that wouldn't use hires resources anyway, even if they looked fantastic.

One day, I'll get around to painting some textures for this project as I applaud your decision to try to make a cross-port hires texture pack. I'm also very glad to hear that a driving motivation for the project is to create textures that maintain DOOM's graphical style. I'm sure the textures will only get better over time.

As for lack of (G)ZDoom support I'm sure there is a reason. I would venture it is more likely an issue with the support for hires texture replacements in (G)ZDoom.

But this is certainly a good asset for those who wish to make new maps with new textures, which the readme says you can't :(

I've not checked but I'd guess that wasn't what he meant. After all, how can a PWAD tell whether you are using hires textures or not? Thats something that only the source port knows. The whole point behind hires texture replacement is that it is transparent to the level being played. I'd guess he meant you can't use the textures as a base for new textures to use in new mods. Not that I expect the DOOM community will respect his wishes :(

Last edited by DaniJ on 11-11-07 at 22:29

11-11-07 22:22 #

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Xtife
Member

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umm... there has been hires support for many versions in g/zdoom

11-11-07 22:30 #

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Fredrik

fredrikj.net

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They're very ugly. Especially the ones I made.

11-11-07 22:34 #

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DaniJ
Forum Regular

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umm... there has been hires support for many versions in g/zdoom

Well, on paper yes. What I was suggesting is that there might be an issue with the way it is implemented. For example, GZDoom says it supports models but in practice, the level of support is very basic.

Note I'm not bashing on GZDoom, I'm just stating fact! I understand that this stuff takes considerable coding time and I'm not having a go at Graf.

11-11-07 22:38 #

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zap610
JETSONZ KREW 4LYF

Posts: 561
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GzStarWars said:
No GzDOOM support. Not even ZDOOM, shocking!

Yeah man, what a bunch of noobs to not even make this work on GZDoom! This is the the biggest problem the wad has, nevermind the quality of some textures it must work for GZDoom!

11-11-07 23:08 #

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Csonicgo
This post is probably useless

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my waffles have been roffled, I'll stick with the original textures thx

11-12-07 00:07 #

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kristus
Godlike/Doglike

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They lack enough definition, which makes them look flat.

There's other factors as well, but that's the most common. Many of them look like drawings, and the ones with lion faces and the likes on them are looking particularly flat.

Still though, definitely the best hi-res textures I've seen for Doom to date. But I won't be using them. They just don't look good enough, and I don't think they ever will.

11-12-07 02:50 #

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KuriKai
Junior Member

Posts: 112
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CodeImp said:
The textures are really nice! Too bad it isn't complete and has some really stupid mistakes. But this is certainly a good asset for those who wish to make new maps with new textures, which the readme says you can't :(

It isn't complete because I am currently the only one making textures.

thanks for the bug report. That texture has been fixed and will be in the next pack.

Graf Zahl said:

Oh shit! Color mismatch aside, this looks UGLY!

I'll stay with the original textures for sure.

Please give constructive criticism on which ones look ugly. and then maybe I can make them not look ugly

zap610 said:

Yeah man, what a bunch of noobs to not even make this work on GZDoom! This is the the biggest problem the wad has, nevermind the quality of some textures it must work for GZDoom!

It is not my fault. I have tried to get it working in Zdoom related ports. But currently, it is impossible because zdoom ports have incomplete implementations of hi-res texture replacements.

kristus said:

They lack enough definition, which makes them look flat.

There's other factors as well, but that's the most common. Many of them look like drawings, and the ones with lion faces and the likes on them are looking particularly flat.

Still though, definitely the best hi-res textures I've seen for Doom to date. But I won't be using them. They just don't look good enough, and I don't think they ever will.

which ones look flat? Of course the one's with lions are going to look flat. It is a 2 dimensional image. try drawing on a pic of paper, look at it from the side and tell me it looks 3D.

11-12-07 05:51 #

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esselfortium
Senior Member

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KuriKai said:
It is not my fault. I have tried to get it working in Zdoom related ports. But currently, it is impossible because zdoom ports have incomplete implementations of hi-res texture replacements.

Zap's post was sarcasm. :P

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11-12-07 06:10 #

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chilvence
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At what point do people think 'gosh, I really don't like the three people interested in making hi res facelifts for my 15 year old game, I think I will taunt them until they give up and go and do something more productive, like playing with lego'

Critics of the pack should be aware that I personally am to blame for most of the bad looking textures - which were mostly replacements for all of the _worse_ looking textures. I stopped working on them ages ago now though, and Kurikai just recently picked the project back off the ground. Isn't it a great thing though, that this keeps coming back up over and over again improving every time, just like... I dunno... a 'project' I think is the word? A project with momentum?

The goal of which is to please anyone who cares, however futile that may seem against the 5 or so naysayers who care enough to constantly moan about it at any single mention, and should therefore consider themselves heard and ignored in due process?

If this was just another mod, with no connection at all to the Doom universe, it would have been much more fun to work on. I realised that when I started working with my flatmate on flash games. Hell it would have been worth it just to avoid your incessant opinionating, GRAF ZAHL

ps, I love GZdoom by the way. Please find a way to fork it back into Zdoom eventually... with the 3d features, the fragglescript making it interchangeable with legacy, even the budding model support it deserves more limelight.

See, aren't I nice. Isn't it nice to be nice to people?

11-12-07 06:11 #

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Graf Zahl
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DaniJ said:

Note I'm not bashing on GZDoom, I'm just stating fact! I understand that this stuff takes considerable coding time and I'm not having a go at Graf.

I know. The reason is that I simply don't have the time to do it - as you stated, it's a considerable task. If someone is willing to help out with the model coding I'd greatly appreciate it. This part of the engine is in desperate need of some work.

KuriKai said:

Please give constructive criticism on which ones look ugly. and then maybe I can make them not look ugly

I was referring to the screenshot. The STAETAN* textures in there definitely need replacement.

which ones look flat? Of course the one's with lions are going to look flat. It is a 2 dimensional image. try drawing on a pic of paper, look at it from the side and tell me it looks 3D.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Of course they are. But just judging from the one screenshot I have to agree that they look a bit flat. Somehow the subtle shadows in the originals aren't well reproduced.

kristus said:

There's other factors as well, but that's the most common. Many of them look like drawings, and the ones with lion faces and the likes on them are looking particularly flat.

Still though, definitely the best hi-res textures I've seen for Doom to date. But I won't be using them. They just don't look good enough, and I don't think they ever will.

I'd have to agree with this. Even though the textures are getting better I still think they don't fit into Doom and make the game look ugly.

To get a reference, I think the Heretic hires pack I got some time ago looks really nice. But still, I wouldn't ever want to play the game with it.

11-12-07 08:14 #

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alterworldruler
Junior Member

Posts: 246
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KuriKai you noob, you ported this to gzdoom/zdoom/skulltag once and you did fail, instead of repairing it with some fix you just cancelled it for those ports... what a shame... a n00b is always a n00b

EDIT: for those who say (G)zdoom hi-res support is bad and has problems,
YOU FAIL IT TOTALLY! because it is good after all >>

11-12-07 08:28 #

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esselfortium
Senior Member

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alterworldruler said:
KuriKai you noob, you ported this to gzdoom/zdoom/skulltag once and you did fail, instead of repairing it with some fix you just cancelled it for those ports... what a shame... a n00b is always a n00b

EDIT: for those who say (G)zdoom hi-res support is bad and has problems,
YOU FAIL IT TOTALLY! because it is good after all >>

Yeah man! What a loser, that guy who's putting his free time into making textures to give to everyone for free! You're delusional.

I agree with the posts here that a lot of the textures need work, but some things seem to be improving. Other things, not so much.

I remember an older version of the set having a completely different STAR* set, for example, which I thought was much more accurate and a lot better-looking. The current ones look too much like round stone carvings to me, rather than high-tech silvery walls. No offense to whoever made them.

Argh, I hate this...I can see that a ton of effort went into all this stuff, and it makes it really hard for me to criticize it without feeling like a jerk. :(

One thing that I think is really important to keep in mind when doing these textures, and it's something I've mentioned before, is the need to think about things that need to match. It goes far beyond just textures in the same sets. An easy example is that METAL, SUPPORT3, WOODMET, all other SUPPORT3-based textures, BROWN96 (also BROWN144, BRONZE*, etc.), and to a lesser extent METAL2 and its ilk, all need to somehow match with the CEIL5_2 flat, which is usually used with them in maps. In the hi-res set, the METAL texture seems to be quite a bit off, and SUPPORT3 is completely different from all of those, with some SUPPORT3-based textures in one style and some in another. (This is a major oversight in the "don't use parts of other peoples' textures" rule! Doom textures reuse lots of parts, and they're supposed to be identical!)

It's a really difficult thing to get hi-res textures that need to be similar to be similar enough to work ingame, without completely stripping them of all the things that make them what they are. The original low-res textures and flats (especially flats) are ambiguous enough that they can be put together in lots of ways that they weren't originally intended for, and look completely natural while doing so. So it's easy to wind up with a pack of textures that all look really great individually, but don't really work very well ingame.

My brain hurts :(

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Last edited by esselfortium on 11-12-07 at 17:01

11-12-07 08:47 #

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KuriKai
Junior Member

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esselfortium said:

One thing that I think is really important to keep in mind when doing these textures, and it's something I've mentioned before, is the need to think about things that need to match. It goes far beyond just textures in the same sets. An easy example is that METAL, SUPPORT3, WOODMET, all other SUPPORT3-based textures, BROWN96 (also BROWN144, BRONZE*, etc.), and to a lesser extent METAL2 and its ilk, all need to somehow match with the CEIL5_2 flat, which is usually used with them in maps. In the hi-res set, the METAL texture seems to be quite a bit off, and SUPPORT3 is completely different from all of those, with some SUPPORT3-based textures in one style and some in another. (This is a major oversight in the "don't use parts of other peoples' textures" rule! Doom textures reuse lots of parts, and they're supposed to be identical!)

Yeah I have not even touched on making sure everything is using the same texture. It is a bigger job than creating the textures as alot of things span over doom, doom2, tnt and plutonia.

Graf Zahl said:

I'd have to agree with this. Even though the textures are getting better I still think they don't fit into Doom and make the game look ugly.

To get a reference, I think the Heretic hires pack I got some time ago looks really nice. But still, I wouldn't ever want to play the game with it.

Yes, we all know you do not like doom to look anything but pixlated, you say it every time something to do with either a hires texture pack, models or the doomsday engine is in discussion. You do not need to keep on stating it.

11-12-07 10:59 #

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Cutman
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CodeImp said:
[But this is certainly a good asset for those who wish to make new maps with new textures, which the readme says you can't :( [/B]

Yeah that sucks balls. That's the only reason i'd want to use this and I can't. LE SIGH

11-12-07 11:53 #

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Graf Zahl
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KuriKai said:

Yes, we all know you do not like doom to look anything but pixlated, you say it every time something to do with either a hires texture pack, models or the doomsday engine is in discussion. You do not need to keep on stating it.

Are we getting defensive or what?

I will always prefer pixelated over something that is as obviously wrong as the majority of the textures in this pack. If you want to convince me, at least do it right. I can't see that happening here.

I scan through the textures and see the same mistake over and over again in almost every single texture: Absolutely no thought is given about the material the texture is supposed to represent. No matter whether it's supposed to be plastic, rock or polished metal, there's always this layer of extremely fine detail that gives the impression of rough stone.

You want some specific criticism?

The STAR**** textures are the worst offenders of all. I always imagined them to be some plastic covering of the walls. The ones in this pack look more like an undefinable mixture of rock and old oxidized metal.

Another bad one is the SPCDOOR3. Again, the original looks like some plain plastic surface, yet in order to make the pixels count in the hires version some weird dither is added which makes the texture lose its character completely.

The ICKWALL textures have some overlaying wooden structure. What is that supposed to do there? These walls are supposed to be concrete and of you look at the originals you will see that any structure within the concrete surface does not extend beyond one specific area of the texture. Areas of different color never have the same. In your pack they do.

Shall I go on? I think I can find countless more examples where something is off.

And this is completely unlike the Heretic pack which actually does enhance the look of the game if you feel like it. But the cumulative effect of these textures is utterly degrading, in my not so humble opinion. E1M1 looks like a joke - nowhere near close to the original.

Cutman said:

Yeah that sucks balls. That's the only reason i'd want to use this and I can't. LE SIGH

To be blunt, I find that limitation to a texture pack that is supposed to emulated copyrighted material by providing 'free' alternatives rather stupid.

11-12-07 12:08 #

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DaniJ
Forum Regular

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Oh come now, I'm sure you understand the differences between "free to use" and "rights restricted".

If I was to copy the mona lisa it doesn't mean my version is rights-free to use for any purpose, just because it looks similar to an existing painting. That is my decision.

11-12-07 13:14 #

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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep

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Graf Zahl said:
The STAR**** textures are the worst offenders of all. I always imagined them to be some plastic covering of the walls. The ones in this pack look more like an undefinable mixture of rock and old oxidized metal.

I'd say the originals are painted metal, though I agree the ones in the pack look too rough to represent them properly.

To be blunt, I find that limitation to a texture pack that is supposed to emulated copyrighted material by providing 'free' alternatives rather stupid.

Why? Since it's derivative of the original work it's emulating, it should definitely be restricted for use with the DOOM games only, to avoid conflicts with the games' license agreements.

As long as that is the case, its copyright standing isn't in conflict, and whether it can be used only by itself or also included in other patch wads for the games (but not other addons or games) is another matter, and up to the authors of the derivative work.

Last edited by myk on 11-12-07 at 13:40

11-12-07 13:15 #

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Mancubus II
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Let's keep this civil guys. Altworldruler, there are ways to argue your point without calling your opponent names. Focus on the subject, not the presenter.

11-12-07 16:13 #

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Yagisan
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After reading the thread here, its pretty clear those attached to the zdoom ports and derivatives don't like the pack. They don't have to use it.

I like the pack - clearly it could use some more work - but we have someone making a high-res pack in their own free time. Many of you complaining lack the ability and willpower to do this work yourself - go on - prove me wrong - make your own packs from scratch - no touch ups of the ID textures.

Kurikai - I suggest you concentrate on only making it work with the ports you like - if another port wants to use it - they can have a community member stand up and help you - and consider a request from me - restore the original name please. It is after all the JDTP you have been updating - helps to remind some people what they are using, as thus far - no non-doomsday users are contributing.

11-13-07 03:37 #

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KuriKai
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Graf Zahl said:

Are we getting defensive or what?

Yes, I am. You would too, if in every post about the gzdoom port you made. I came in and said this is nothing like doom, it changes it to much, It sucks!

Graf Zahl said:

I will always prefer pixelated over something that is as obviously wrong as the majority of the textures in this pack. If you want to convince me, at least do it right. I can't see that happening here.

Yes we all know that. You keep on telling us

Graf Zahl said:

I scan through the textures and see the same mistake over and over again in almost every single texture: Absolutely no thought is given about the material the texture is supposed to represent. No matter whether it's supposed to be plastic, rock or polished metal, there's always this layer of extremely fine detail that gives the impression of rough stone.

Say's you the graphic artist.

Graf Zahl said:

You want some specific criticism?

The STAR**** textures are the worst offenders of all. I always imagined them to be some plastic covering of the walls. The ones in this pack look more like an undefinable mixture of rock and old oxidized metal.

That is what you imagined them to be. You are most likely wrong on most of the textures. The originals are not detailed enough to know exactly what they are. Everyone has a different Idea on what the textures are made of.

Graf Zahl said:

Another bad one is the SPCDOOR3. Again, the original looks like some plain plastic surface, yet in order to make the pixels count in the hires version some weird dither is added which makes the texture lose its character completely.

Once again this is only your interpretation. Plain plastic surface for a space station. Nice going, that's really what you would find in the real world.

Graf Zahl said:

The ICKWALL textures have some overlaying wooden structure. What is that supposed to do there? These walls are supposed to be concrete and of you look at the originals you will see that any structure within the concrete surface does not extend beyond one specific area of the texture. Areas of different color never have the same. In your pack they do.

There is no overlaying wooden structure in that picture, the ickwall textures were made from a picture of a REAL concrete wall.

you are talking about the pipes? explain more clearly please.

Graf Zahl said:

Shall I go on? I think I can find countless more examples where something is off.

Yes do go on, as it will improve the pack, eventually. Remember there Is only ONE person currently working on this pack. Currently in it there are OVER 500 textures! The whole thing will be closer to 800! I would like to see you try and make that!

11-13-07 04:55 #

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chilvence
Master Procrastinator

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Indeed, do go on. Anything but more grumpiness :P

11-13-07 07:54 #

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Belial
Viva Negativa!

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KuriKai said:
That is what you imagined them to be. You are most likely wrong on most of the textures. The originals are not detailed enough to know exactly what they are. Everyone has a different Idea on what the textures are made of...

...Plain plastic surface for a space station. Nice going, that's really what you would find in the real world...

...There is no overlaying wooden structure in that picture, the ickwall textures were made from a picture of a REAL concrete wall...

Just listing the reasons why this pack has so many hi-res textures that will never work for maps that weren't made specifically for the pack.

lol realism has no place in Doom if it looks meh, so that's not an acceptable explanation.

Textures are made of pixels, nothing else, so if something doesn't look right and stands out like a sore thumb when used in a map (or when applied to existing maps that rely on some texture combinations that work together well), arguing abour what 'material' the wall would be made of in the real world is just plain hilarious, or retarded.

11-13-07 08:27 #

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