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JohnnyRancid
Forum Regular


Posts: 769
Registered: 08-07



ler said:
We really do need some sort of "second opinion" system to balance out reviews like that.


It's not like just because the wad was reviewed that way, automatically entitles it to a cacoward. Since this review system was available to all users, I can't help but make a note that just about all of the reviews are not entirely opinionated the way I expect a realistic review to be.

I'm not saying that the review system is flawed (Because I really love to see /newstuffs rolling out each week), it's just that there are many different people exposing their different tastes on individual wads on each /newstuff.

What I really think people should keep in mind for further /newstuff reviews, is that this isn't your time to tell us whether you liked the wad you played, It's more that you describe the wad, what's available in it, and what features that are normally expected in doom maps are there or not there. Then tell us if you liked it in the last couple sentences. the point of /newstuff is not only to let the author of the wads know how to make ideal wan ads in the future, but also tell me whether I should play it or not.

Last edited by JohnnyRancid on 06-30-08 at 21:02

Old Post 06-30-08 20:42 #
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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


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myk said:
Opinions should not be censored to suit mass conformity. Such a precept also encourages people to write in reference to what they think others may be thinking; that leads to superficiality and a lack of tact. As long as the review is substantiated it should be good to go, and the author should proceed freely.


Well, maybe my second point was stated too strictly, and maybe we have different ideas of what a review should be, but when I see a review that states that a map is bad, I want the reasoning to be "this map is a bad member of its genre/era," instead of just "this map is bad." The former case is already close enough to acknowledging the opinions of others, in my opinion - I don't expect or want more than that. In the latter case, we don't know whether or not the reviewer appreciates any maps of that style, in which case we the readers can't get a good idea of whether their opinion will match that of the reviewer, in which case the review hasn't really done its job.

One nice thing about having a single reviewer is that we all get the chance to figure out "I tend to agree/disagree with this guy about this," but we can't work that our for ourselves when every review is written by a different person. So, to be able to weigh a reviewer's negative input, it's best if the reader can clearly tell whether the reviewer dislikes the map or dislikes the genre via the text of the review. Of course, it would also make a lot of sense if all reviewers only claimed wads of genres/styles that they are familiar with and tend to enjoy.

Old Post 06-30-08 20:48 #
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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep


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Creaphis said:
"this map is a bad member of its genre/era,"
If that is the case (that a WAD is good for certain people) a good review will make that clear without the reviewer having to speculate on whether a certain group is a minority or if the WAD really fits in the category or what such categories should be used (many of these just sound insulting). The reason is because one would need to make assumptions about others' subjectivity. Instead, if one substantiates the review properly* (often called "being objective") people of all sorts, even those not easily categorized (and most smart people aren't) can judge whether the WAD is of interest and how. They (can) decide.

* Not that I think there is a way to quantify this, but you can tell whether a reviewer is pointing out why he judges the WAD in this or that way, characterizing the WAD as he does so. A review is a way of seeing a creative work through the point of view of another. If that point of view is clear, it will help you get acquainted with the work, even if you disagree.


One nice thing about having a single reviewer is that we all get the chance to figure out "I tend to agree/disagree with this guy about this," but we can't work that our for ourselves when every review is written by a different person.
That's easier with people who write better reviews; those who are more knowledgeable, pinpoint key elements and insights, and have a better grasp of language. In any case, this is not so different from having one or two reviewers as nearly all the reviews are by regular submitters.

You can give that sort of schematic advice and some might pick it up but from experience (here or in regard to literary criticism) its a "handbook tip hack" sometimes used in some commercial environments where you need to set up buyer categories. I think this community is mature enough that reviewers can be frank and trusting in their (possibly increasing) ability to provide a to-the-point review by focusing on their insight and experience, and not what they assume others think, or general community categories based on that (which ease things by making them stupider).

I understand the issue you're trying to tackle, but I think it's better for people to really learn to write good solid reviews, rather than use invasive clutches that still lead to poor reviews.

Old Post 07-01-08 06:31 #
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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


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I never intended to lay down a set of hard guidelines, which seems to be how you're interpreting my posts - I'm just looking for "good, solid reviews" as you said, and the things I stated as important for a review will already be implicitly present in good critical writing. I stated what I was looking for in overly-specific terms because the only alternative is the vague request for "good reviews," which would be a fairly unhelpful post.

I think we agree that a review is better if the reader is able to guess whether or not he will like what's being reviewed, even if the reviewer doesn't like it. This is all that I expect. I don't want the reviewer to make that guess for me - I just want enough quality information in the review so that I can guess for myself.

You're right that there's no specific procedural rule that could replace good writing.

I brought this up in the first place because I felt that Bloodshedder is occasionally too lenient in accepting reviews that are rambling, incomplete, or judge only by an inappropriate standard - that are "bad," to put it simply. I mentioned one way in which a review can be a bad one. But, as writing can't be divided into "bad" and "good" by an objective standard, and as Bloodshedder has not expressed any wish to subjectively divide them, I suppose that this lenience will remain. I have the impression that you would suggest that the review writers should be given this lenience so that they have the chance to improve their craft.

Still, until the writing is all up to my high standards, perhaps we should implement a second-review system. Not for the wads, but so that other writers can review the reviews themselves. ;)

Old Post 07-01-08 07:37 #
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rf`
my soap has gaybar printed on it


Posts: 7157
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For some reason, I hated Invasion UAC.

Old Post 07-01-08 19:29 #
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Mechadon
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Ayieeah! MekaWad overload O_O

After reading through my wad reviews, it occurred to me that I'm a big ole dummy. Those discrepancies in the readme's are from me using the previous wad's readme as a template for the other wads. I was organizing my releases to upload to /idgames all at once, so...yea. I suck.

Thanks for the honest reviews though :D

Old Post 07-01-08 21:48 #
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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep


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Creaphis said:
I think we agree that a review is better if the reader is able to guess whether or not he will like what's being reviewed, even if the reviewer doesn't like it. This is all that I expect. I don't want the reviewer to make that guess for me - I just want enough quality information in the review so that I can guess for myself.
In fact I apologize because I misread something you said (ironically I even quoted it), mainly because I was thinking of a review the other week that started with the type of explicit disclaimer I talked about. So it was something I had in mind but there really wasn't a reason to make it into a reply to what you said.

Old Post 07-02-08 07:46 #
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Haloless0320
I dont know how to use punctuation.Properly


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I'd like to get involved in these reveiws,how would I start?

Old Post 07-11-08 17:01 #
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lupinx-Kassman
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Haloless0320 said:
I'd like to get involved in these reveiws,how would I start?


The page your looking for is linked at the bottom of the /newstuff review page, and this thread's first post. I'll just give you the link here though. All wads are claimed/approved at the moment.

Old Post 07-11-08 17:26 #
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Haloless0320
I dont know how to use punctuation.Properly


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Thx Kassman,I'll be sure to jump on the next newstuff.

Old Post 07-11-08 17:35 #
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MasterOfPuppets
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Posts: 616
Registered: 07-03


hey, where is #320? Its been a few weeks, I was hoping to see it up today.

Old Post 07-14-08 05:20 #
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EarthQuake
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Yeah I'm still waiting as well.

All the wads have had reviews submitted... wonder when it's going to be posted.

Old Post 07-14-08 07:10 #
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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep


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There has been a lull because Bloodshedder took (RL) vacations.

Old Post 07-14-08 07:15 #
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Cutman
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Posts: 126
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myk said:
(RL) vacations.


My God.... The worst kind! D:

Old Post 07-14-08 10:04 #
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Jim Rainer
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I'll try my hand in reviewing next round.

Old Post 07-15-08 02:41 #
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GreyGhost
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Posts: 1025
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myk said:
(RL) vacations.

I'm hoping that doesn't mean Really Long - some of us are already exibiting withdrawal symptoms.

In the meantime - I have good news and bad news for reviewers.

The good news is that there will be a steady trickle of wads into /newstuff. The bad news is they'll be mostly 94-96 maps from my collection of lost & forgotten wads. Not to everyone's taste but will at least keep the review centre ticking over.

Old Post 07-15-08 05:17 #
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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep


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GreyGhost said:
The bad news is they'll be mostly 94-96 maps from my collection of lost & forgotten wads.
If you're selective like RL is and tend to upload the better stuff, this is quite good news.

Old Post 07-15-08 11:29 #
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GreyGhost
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No guarantees but I'll do my best - maybe I'm chasing Funduke's crown as chief archive spammer. ;-)

Old Post 07-15-08 12:29 #
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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep


Posts: 10410
Registered: 04-02



GreyGhost said:
I'm chasing Funduke's crown as chief archive spammer. ;-)
You could partner with him, as he said he'd still be uploading stuff... but with a better criterion than in the past. He initially uploaded a lot of junk because he was working on a Maximum DOOM index.

Old Post 07-15-08 13:07 #
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Scuba Steve


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Where's the latest Newstuff!!??

Old Post 07-15-08 20:56 #
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Gez
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Scuba Steve said:
Where's the latest Newstuff!!??

In another castle.

Old Post 07-15-08 21:12 #
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GreyGhost
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Scuba Steve said:
Where's the latest Newstuff!!??
In a thread adjacent to this one.

Old Post 07-16-08 05:15 #
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