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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 3991
Registered: 10-05

I've seen some creative, well-made invasion maps but what stands between them and Cacowards, in my mind, is that they're just not worth remembering. I mean, invasion is fun for a bit, but it's tedious and repetitive (when not impossible) in single-player, it doesn't work as a coop game because it doesn't inspire cooperation (there's no reason to try to keep each other alive when dying and respawning are free) and it doesn't work as a competitive game because there's nothing to compete for but the highest kill count (which does not necessarily reflect skill or contribution). There's some fun to be had from invasion wads, but the fun is in their novelty and their mindless carnage, and the fundamentally ephemeral nature of this fun means that it's impossible for an invasion wad to ever be made that people would want to look back on and revisit ten years from now. As that's the case, why immortalize one of these wads on an awards page?

Kyka said:
The final credits strongly implies that there will be more, so I look forwards to more of this...

I think that's just how games end. When was the last time you played something that didn't end by waving its sequel potential in your face?

12-15-09 20:50 #

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Abyssalstudios1
Member

Posts: 647
Registered: 06-09

Creaphis said:
When was the last time you played something that didn't end by waving its sequel potential in your face?

Irritatingly enough, it was Bioshock. While the endings (both of them) were somewhat abrupt, they certainly didn't leave me hanging.

__________________
I'm also known as "Angel of Vengeance" in Skulltag- stop by and pwn me sometime.

12-16-09 01:52 #

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myk
volveré y seré millones

Posts: 14422
Registered: 04-02

Creaphis said:
it doesn't work as a coop game because it doesn't inspire cooperation (there's no reason to try to keep each other alive when dying and respawning are free)

So, you think DOOM's coop doesn't work?

Although it does break down to something more trivial when ammo respawns and when friendly fire causes no damage. Without those, dying is a waste of ammo and spamming is stupid because it kills your buddies (possibly pissing them off, too.) That's why coop is best when played in private mode between trusted people, with friendly fire damage and limited ammo.

12-16-09 05:13 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 3991
Registered: 10-05

You've basically written my post for me. What a cooperative game mode needs is a reason to cooperate - and if you're playing with friends, and resources are limited, and you don't want to piss each other off, those are great reasons. I suppose that invasion wads could sustain cooperative play similarly, with the right server settings - but invasion servers tend to be populated by random strangers, and I have a hard time believing that a close-knit group of friends would choose a Doom invasion wad for some cooperative gaming over so many other options. Therefore, invasion wads would deliver a better cooperative experience to the random visitors to their servers if there was some material reason to cooperate (ie. self benefit).

Or am I completely out of touch? Does Joe Skulltagger host a private invasion server so that he and his three best friends can have some rousing, cooperative fun?

12-16-09 05:59 #

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myk
volveré y seré millones

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They might, at least some of them. I do! It's harder to verify than how public ones are set up, especially the ones that don't show up on the master. I'm guessing some people use the same settings for private games as in public servers out of habit. But I'll have to agree that public cooperative is watered down and oriented more toward hanging out or passing the time (not to mention subject to abuse) than playing deathmatch and other head-to-head modes, which are more competitive.

12-16-09 06:33 #

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DuckReconMajor
Forum Spammer

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I play Doom coop to kill monsters with other people. What's so hard to understand about that?

12-16-09 17:57 #

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Abyssalstudios1
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Posts: 647
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DuckReconMajor said:
I play Doom coop to kill monsters with other people. What's so hard to understand about that?

This.

12-16-09 19:44 #

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kristus
Megablast!

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The biggest contribution Skulltag ever did to Doom IMO, is the Survival COOP mode. It's really the way I want to play coop. Not with strangers still of course. But it really makes things interesting when you play with friends. Now, if they could do the same with invasion. Then we might have a winner.

12-16-09 20:05 #

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stewboy
Member

Posts: 418
Registered: 05-05

Well, invasion does support sv_maxlives, but I guess most servers don't use that?

12-16-09 21:40 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 3991
Registered: 10-05

myk said:
They might, at least some of them. I do! It's harder to verify than how public ones are set up, especially the ones that don't show up on the master. I'm guessing some people use the same settings for private games as in public servers out of habit. But I'll have to agree that public cooperative is watered down and oriented more toward hanging out or passing the time (not to mention subject to abuse) than playing deathmatch and other head-to-head modes, which are more competitive.

Wait, I already know that you play coop privately. I already think that the traditional coop mode can be inherently more satisfying than invasion mods. Are you saying here that you play invasion privately?

12-16-09 22:30 #

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myk
volveré y seré millones

Posts: 14422
Registered: 04-02

I must admit I thought about editing that part a bit before you posted, because, yeah, I was just referring to my playing coop privately in general, and not specifically in invasion mode, although I also meant to say others might do it, using invasion mode.

kristus said:
The biggest contribution Skulltag ever did to Doom IMO, is the Survival COOP mode. It's really the way I want to play coop. Not with strangers still of course. But it really makes things interesting when you play with friends.

That enforces it on public servers, but playing coop with no deaths has been a common practice in DOOM from long before Skulltag. It's normal in demo recording, at least.

For most cooperative I prefer play in the standard mode, with player respawns, though, because the loss of equipment is a good enough penalty for dying, and it allows longer, harder level sets to be reasonable for coop, and bolder action by the players.

12-16-09 23:54 #

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