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Abyssalstudios1
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Posts: 647
Registered: 06-09

Eligitine said:

...and do not reflect the whorableness of the wad.

Yup, we all hate those slutty .WADs.

12-20-09 22:34 #

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gggmork
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lol @ replacing idgames maps. The original TOM are some of the best maps I've played, with a concentration on hard core speedrunning gameplay by one of the most skilled players (so he knows what he's doing, unlike many other slaughter map creators who don't normally play at that skill level). Watch the 9:50 uvmax of the zdoom version of smedley- extreme slaughterfest with bizarre vertical monster stacks, epic secrets, alternate rocket jump routes. Better than the vast majority of cacoward material in my opinion, but those awards and newstuff chronicles (and custom titles) are just focusing media attention on the opinion of one or a few individuals.

12-22-09 18:58 #

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Jodwin
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gggmork said:
lol @ replacing idgames maps. The original TOM are some of the best maps I've played, with a concentration on hard core speedrunning gameplay by one of the most skilled players (so he knows what he's doing, unlike many other slaughter map creators who don't normally play at that skill level). Watch the 9:50 uvmax of the zdoom version of smedley- extreme slaughterfest with bizarre vertical monster stacks, epic secrets, alternate rocket jump routes. Better than the vast majority of cacoward material in my opinion, but those awards and newstuff chronicles (and custom titles) are just focusing media attention on the opinion of one or a few individuals.

QFT.

12-22-09 19:06 #

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alterworldruler
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gggmork said:
lol @ replacing idgames maps. The original TOM are some of the best maps I've played, with a concentration on hard core speedrunning gameplay by one of the most skilled players (so he knows what he's doing, unlike many other slaughter map creators who don't normally play at that skill level). Watch the 9:50 uvmax of the zdoom version of smedley- extreme slaughterfest with bizarre vertical monster stacks, epic secrets, alternate rocket jump routes. Better than the vast majority of cacoward material in my opinion, but those awards and newstuff chronicles (and custom titles) are just focusing media attention on the opinion of one or a few individuals.
Jodwin said:

QFT.

QFT+1, as of recent both cacowards and newstuff chronicles promote only big dicks (harmony is an exception as it was original). You see guys, original TOM maps are better than yours and you can hide your ass then cry. Face it, his maps are way more original than all of awarded penis maps. WHILE I HATE TORMENTOR for his gameplay, giving him worst cacoward was completely childish. If you guys can't do a better guide like "How to make a good balanced gameplay in your map", you should all lay the hands off something you can't do better yourself. Bastards.

12-23-09 11:06 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

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alterworldruler said:
QFT+1, as of recent both cacowards and newstuff chronicles promote only big dicks (harmony is an exception as it was original). You see guys, original TOM maps are better than yours and you can hide your ass then cry. Face it, his maps are way more original than all of awarded penis maps. WHILE I HATE TORMENTOR for his gameplay, giving him worst cacoward was completely childish. If you guys can't do a better guide like "How to make a good balanced gameplay in your map", you should all lay the hands off something you can't do better yourself. Bastards.

English please

and/or Amanda Please

12-23-09 16:37 #

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Use3D
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alterworldruler said:
"How to make a good balanced gameplay in your map", you should all lay the hands off something you can't do better yourself. Bastards.

This again??!! Thanks for amusing us with our daily dose of stupid, Alter.

12-23-09 16:47 #

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Phml
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gggmork said:
lol @ replacing idgames maps. The original TOM are some of the best maps I've played, with a concentration on hard core speedrunning gameplay by one of the most skilled players (so he knows what he's doing, unlike many other slaughter map creators who don't normally play at that skill level). Watch the 9:50 uvmax of the zdoom version of smedley- extreme slaughterfest with bizarre vertical monster stacks, epic secrets, alternate rocket jump routes. Better than the vast majority of cacoward material in my opinion, but those awards and newstuff chronicles (and custom titles) are just focusing media attention on the opinion of one or a few individuals.

QFT, QFT, etc

I enjoyed most tom19 maps, and I'm not sure what's making you guys mad. TimeOfDeath changed the maps himself, not someone else.

I'm not going to go on and on saying again what was said a few days ago in the thread Alando started in General, but if you can't handle criticism, it's best not to make your work public... Which is exactly what ToD did, making it available only on DSDA where it's more likely to meet the audience it aims to please.

The way I see the whole thing : people have every right to voice their opinion about a wad. ToD didn't seem to like the critics and made the right call by quietly deleting the files while still keeping the wad available somewhere else. I really don't see the problem here.

12-23-09 17:25 #

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myk
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Use3D said:
This again??!! Thanks for amusing us with our daily dose of stupid, Alter.

The only clearly stupid thing about his post is how overexcited or bitter he gets. Curiously, your reply isn't very different nor better.

I don't see how saying TOD's levels are underrated is stupid, especially when people tend to ignore how he's developed a unique and tight from of play. If you want to criticize the posts above, at least say something smart like "give Scuba and the team some slack, at least he's acknowledged he can be considered to have his bias and there are other views than the cacowards." Besides, the cacowards get made by people who volunteer to make them, and Scuba has shown to be open enough to incorporate people with differing viewpoints, so people could also improve them by volunteering. Although not everyone has the time or writing skills to make reviews (which does not imply their perhaps badly written or expressed opinions hold no merit.)

I also like gggmork's focus on reviews being specific and often reiterative opinions. I get the impression that's often taken for granted and then ignored. You can see it in posts where people say certain opinions are nonsense or stupid. Some may be, but many just don't fit with our preconceptions or prejudice, so we sideline and ridicule them, or worse, their messenger, to make space for our own preferences.

Phml said:
I'm not going to go on and on saying again what was said a few days ago in the thread Alando started in General, but if you can't handle criticism, it's best not to make your work public...

In fact, the thread also criticized that conclusion, in some respects.

The way I see the whole thing : people have every right to voice their opinion about a wad. ToD didn't seem to like the critics and made the right call by quietly deleting the files while still keeping the wad available somewhere else. I really don't see the problem here.

Consider that Jodwin, gggmork and alterworldruler are all doing that too in their way by standing up for TOD's WADs. Otherwise it sounds like you're saying criticism can't be questioned. Academic criticism, for example, is all about critics responding to each other.

12-23-09 17:50 #

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esselfortium
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myk said:
I don't see how saying TOD's levels are underrated is stupid, especially when people tend to ignore how he's developed a unique and tight from of play.

It's not.

But making bizarre and totally unrelated references to "awarded penis maps", newstuff only promoting "big dicks", hating Tormentor, and making 'don't criticize if you can't do better yourself' arguments, and telling people to "hide their ass and cry", while claiming in the midst of this weird obscenity-laden rant that everyone else is being childish, is.

12-23-09 18:07 #

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myk
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I can agree with that. Alter wouldn't have lost anything by chilling before making the post.

Use3D also responded to the "you can't do better" which is often called out as invalid, but is kind of true in this case, as few work so hard in the direction TOD goes, and many don't even have the skills or playing experience required to play and test the type of maps he makes, which would make them very dependent on testers to even try.

12-23-09 18:21 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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All of this makes me feel sorry for not giving TimeOfDeath's maps the TimeOfDay. But, honestly, I don't think I've got the skillz for 'em.

12-23-09 18:44 #

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Phml
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Otherwise it sounds like you're saying criticism can't be questioned.

The way you keep interpreting my words in a way that is completely different from what I'm actually typing is starting to make me wonder if you might be a lawyer ! If anything, I'm saying criticism, along with everything else, can be questioned.

However, what I specifically meant is I don't get exactly what's the problem here (refering to "lol @ replacing idgames maps." in particular) TimeOfDeath wanted the maps replaced, not someone else. He took the right approach by being discreet about it and not making pointless drama.

Now people pop up and attack other doomers for... something ToD himself did ? Unless the implied point here is the critics forced ToD to withdraw his maps ? To which I'd say that's stretching, ToD was the only one who could and made the call (and again, I think he made the best decision, he said himself he doesn't handle criticism well and so chose not to expose his work to it ; indeed, no point getting stress or grief over a video game).

As I'm not a mindreader unlike some people here, I wanted to hear it from the concerned folks, but ironically *I* am starting to get annoyed at people reading "blue" when I type "red", so I'll follow my own advice and just forget about this thread now that I've clarified my position (although I'm sure someone is bound to interpret this reply as "I'm a baby-eater terrorist and I hate video games").

12-23-09 20:16 #

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udderdude
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No comments on Grime yet? Great map, but it seems some flamewar has taken hold. Anyway, this is the kind of map you play with God mode on in UV, just to learn all the traps and routes so when you play it for real, you aren't save/loading every 5 seconds for hours. Other skill levels are more manageable. Overall I'd give it two thumbs up.

12-23-09 20:24 #

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myk
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Phml said:
The way you keep interpreting my words in a way that is completely different from what I'm actually typing is starting to make me wonder if you might be a lawyer!

Heh, I'm no lawyer, but I have wondered I could be a good one. People have told me memorization is important in Law, and I don't really like memorizing stuff, so maybe I would be out of place there.

In any case, words are indeed subject to interpretation, and the procedure with them is similar to WADs being subject to criticism (and I see you caught on to that by the end of your reply.)

If anything, I'm saying criticism, along with everything else, can be questioned.

We agree then, that is cool. And while that could be placed in "people have every right to voice their opinion about a wad" in the sense of taking a counter-critique as part of the right, it's not implicit. It can be taken as the opposite, as well, because if when someone criticizes a critique you tell them "but they have a right" you're questioning that they have the right to question that critique.

You must admit that when I posted above, I left things open in respect to what you said with "consider that" and "otherwise," and didn't impose some fixed meaning on your words. I more or less inquired whether you agreed that the right to opinion also included questioning the criticism, as it wasn't evident in your post, and I didn't assume you disagreed with me.

As for the "lol@," assuming gggmork had read the thread, I interpreted it as a laugh against the situation. First, that it was silly or unnecessary of TOD to remove the WADs, and second, that it was lame or unfortunate that people contributed to help TOD reach that decision.

That's what made sense to me in context. I felt no need to assume gggmork didn't know what he was talking about, as it's pretty evident it wasn't someone else who uploaded the dummy WADs.

I'll follow my own advice and just forget about this thread now that I've clarified my position (although I'm sure someone is bound to interpret this reply as "I'm a baby-eater terrorist and I hate video games").

Nah, no problem. You warned us once that you could be "narrow minded" but also seem to display an insightful tendency that pretty much can bridge over any of that.

12-23-09 21:02 #

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alterworldruler
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I admit, i'm sorry for the overreaction in general. All I wanted to say is that I do question the worst wad of the year choice and I say that if you guys want to do the better for newbies. Make a "good gameplay" guide where you will teach about how maps with scarced ammo should play, or slaughterfests. And I do question criticism that can't be even questioned, about TOM's original maps. Sorry guys, I hope that clears that up.

12-23-09 21:09 #

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gggmork
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'lol' just because its funny imo. And I'm just giving my opinion that TOM (original upload) are great maps as an opposite view from the apparent 2.5 star idgames rating (apparent because its probably easy for someone with an agenda to give fake reviews with sock puppets, or rate low for reasons unrelated to the wad itself).

'He took the right approach by being discreet'
Or maybe it was partly a joke. But anyway the dummy (non original) TOM maps are the ones that got negative newstuff 'media attention', so so much for discreetness.

/end WWE drama

12-23-09 21:38 #

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Bashe
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Solarn said:
But they're awesome!

Yeah, Of Darkness... is pretty good now that you mention it

12-23-09 21:56 #

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Use3D
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alterworldruler said:
If you guys can't do a better guide like "How to make a good balanced gameplay in your map", you should all lay the hands off something you can't do better yourself. Bastards.

myk said:

Use3D also responded to the "you can't do better" which is often called out as invalid, but is kind of true in this case, as few work so hard in the direction TOD goes, and many don't even have the skills or playing experience required to play and test the type of maps he makes, which would make them very dependent on testers to even try.

Alter was referring to the crappy detail guide, from what I can tell from his post, but that's okay, I certainly agree that the original ToM wad appeals to a certain class of player, all the more reason to render obvious retarded votes/comments on the archive invalid. Anyone seeking this kind of play-style would be directed to such maps readily by users here.
If the ratings might impact the attraction of the wad to new players, they'd probably suck at them anyway. Also I'm not seeing anywhere in this thread anyone said ToD's maps blatantly sucked, so I'm confused as why people are defending them tooth and nail as such. I still don't condone the action taken to the maps on the archive.

12-23-09 23:19 #

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Belial
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Grime is very player-friendly for a map made by D-D. Great fun all around.

Blindside2 is quite interesting as well, talk about non-linearity.

Last edited by Belial on 12-24-09 at 02:04

12-24-09 01:06 #

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sector666
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This whole thread has made me wonder one thing.

Should there be something like a "best for speedrunning" Cacoward?

Speedrunning is an important aspect of Doom for plenty of people, whether playing or watching. It takes skill to make a map that's good for speedrunning. It sound's like good speedrunning maps don't get the attention they deserve.

Not everyone cares about speedrunning of course. Put the other things together though, and I'm curious what people think.

12-25-09 12:29 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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sector666 said:
Should there be something like a "best for speedrunning" Cacoward

Not specifically, no. But, it would be good if people from under-represented groups of Doomers would volunteer to write Cacowards so that these worthy projects get attention instead of idly standing by and then complaining after the fact.

I'm not saying that anybody does the latter - just that it would be good if people did the former.

12-25-09 19:32 #

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myk
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I think dividing awards by categories as in the Oscars would be great, and would discourage some of the arbitrariness and the need for "all-around good" awards that skew merit in some respects, although to achieve that, actual voting should take place. Perhaps with people voting on a set of nominees preselected by a team of judges that guarantee general degree of quality. The judges could even vary somewhat depending on the categories, according to their expertise and preferences. Otherwise, open voting first for the nominees and then for the winners could work, with some method to discourage abuse. Perhaps most categories could have an open system encouraging people with interests in a category to vote, attracting people specialize in or pay particular attention to that aspect, say aesthetics, music, speed running, deathmatch, tech innovation, graphics, and so on. The "best WAD" award might sometimes end with somewhat controversial results tied to sheer popularity, but the other awards should help highlight aspects different people consider important in WADs, making that fair enough.

The Golden Cybers for COMPET-N demos had a voting system that worked rather nicely.

I'm not realistically expecting such a drastic change after the ten years event and six years of Cacowards, although I think the idea is worth noting.

12-25-09 20:46 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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Hm. I feel like something would be lost if the wad selection became visible and democratic. There's something nice about reading the subjective opinions of arbitrarily-appointed judges.

12-25-09 22:09 #

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Jodwin
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Creaphis said:
Hm. I feel like something would be lost if the wad selection became visible and democratic. There's something nice about reading the subjective opinions of arbitrarily-appointed judges.

I have to say I agree. Despite having said that Cacowards aren't perfect and don't necessarily portrait the absolutely best wads of the year, not to mention personal tastes, I still like Cacowards. The problem isn't with the awards themselves, the problem is with how people perceive them. They shouldn't be taken as God's word on what's best and what's not, instead everyone should realize that it's simply one or two guys' personal opinion on what's best. Because, after all, that's all it is.

12-26-09 07:18 #

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myk
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While they're not divinely inspired, nor are they "just some opinion," because they're a key Doomworld event more or less aiming to represent the "best of" in regard to WADs. It can be argued the Cacowards already have their character and that changing it would be a bit awkward and only possible under the will and initiative of those who run it. They're more or less a "yearly /newstuff Chronicles" event. Awards, on the other hand, are mainly mentions defining winners, while these are a series of reviews of select works.

There's no need to blame anyone for anything, interests and opinions simply diverge. Blaming the Cacoward readers for their reactions is like blaming families in a country for the bad economy: "They spent too much and asked for too much, they should have saved money and worked harder, the national debt is their fault."

12-26-09 09:25 #

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Super Jamie
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I started playing Planet Phobos.

The parts that are good are really good. The layouts are clever, varied, let you see into other places and switch back on themselves alot. I wish I had the knack for reuseable space and sneaky open secrets that this author has. There are some rad ideas here too, one map convincingly gets its' previous areas flooded with green slime, though I'll admit the author emulates Romero's Episode 1 a bit too obviously in some areas.

The battles can be brutal on UV if you don't watch yourself, and they're mostly varied enough that they don't get boring. The shotgun could have been given alot earlier than halfway through Level 2, the chainsaw partly makes up for that but you're often not given much time to swap to it. Many barrel frags are wasted on poor placement, or at best only help you weaken enemies.

Where this falls down is the little things. I'm all for foregoing detail for playability but even NMD used more than 3 wall textures per level. Plus there are so many things like inescapable pits, places to trap yourself and die needlessly, inescapable nukage pits that shouldn't be inescapable, bleeding midtextures and often-ugly alignment. And that's just 4 maps in.

A bit more variation and attention to detail in areas that matter would have made this great. I might play it through once but it's no timeless keeper like Doom Redemption, Needs More Detail or Back 2 Basics.

12-26-09 13:23 #

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myk
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I have been playing it too. I really like it. It starts in a simplistic manner that may drive people off prematurely but gets better as it progresses, much like Hell Revealed does. It's not as polished as some others, like B2B and NMD, but on the other had, it seems fresher in some respects. The large levels, the types of encounters and the lighting all give it a great feel, especially in the later levels. I'm at level 6 and I'm getting the impression it's a "must play" E1-style set.

12-27-09 09:33 #

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