myk
webbed digits
Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02 |
Csonicgo said:
You're insisting that doom format and doom2 format are different map formats because they have some different specials, and boom format is a different map format, and eternity format is a different format from that, despite them being the same format with different specials added.
You say it's just semantics, but to some source ports, the differences I'm calling formats are included in one class that can be messed with in general and in a mixed bag, while in earlier engines and offshoots the differences require separate treatment. Not only that, but some of the stuff I called format classes are pretty much irrelevant or off-field to these more rudimentary engines or specs. "Just semantics" would be something that has no impact on practical use.
That's like saying windows plaintext files and unix plaintext files are different because they use different line breaks.
Perhaps! I do recall this phenomenon. Every time I try to open a Unix plain text document in Notepad it is only half readable because the formatting is not adequate in the old Windows program. I have to either open it with something else, replace those black blocks with valid breaks, or annoy myself reading a mess.
Your post created a new and largely irrelevant, useless tangent, since it *became* what was being discussed as soon as you brought it up, of course.
It's irrelevant or useless to those to whom it serves no purpose or opposes their purposes. As far as I'm concerned, it started with Gez's more pedantic post because essel had already noted that ZDoom uses the Hexen format.
So, I must ask, are you done derailing this thread yet?
I can't help you with your question, as it assumes an agreement with your opinion or conclusion.
Graf Zahl said:
Would this make it a different format? I don't think so.
It's similar to asking oneself whether the original executable is still the original executable once it has been hacked, or the game is the game once a patch WAD has been applied. The executable has been hacked, the data set has been changed, the format has been modified. The base vanilla formats (DOOM, DOOM II, Heretic, Hexen, Strife) are easily identifiable and rather universal in their game context, while any modifications are unique to each mod or to related mods, and potentially infinite. If we really wanted to define these alterations, we could call them subformats. In biology we have subspecies for variants or offshoots that are different but could still interbreed. Instead of the interbreeding possibility, we have the opportunity to hack or change required data.
And in ZDoom you could add a DECORATE lump and a linedef translation table to make Heretic or Strife maps work as intended in Doom with all features or vice versa. So where would be the different format then?
Indeed, this and other reasons explain why ZDoom development has defined formats differently than in the vanilla approach I'm describing.
printz said:
Now map format differs between DoomStrifeHeretic and HexenZDoom and newly UDMF.
Another way of putting it, in vanilla terms, is that some of these formats (DOOM, DOOM II, Heretic) are largely compatible, but not really compatible without tweaking. Comparatively, the Hexen format is incompatible, on the other hand.
Indeed, from a programming perspective, the meaning of "format" is clear.
It's good to see you're working from a context. However, formats vary in application, if I'm not mistaken. For example, the BMP and HTML formats are pretty different in the level of information they specify. In any case, format here can also be considered from a level design perspective, not just programming. In a vanilla-only environment, the source is fixed or irrelevant, while newer source port specifications tend to merge these two disciplines to make more general and generous usage possible:
Graf Zahl said:
And it's for reasons like this that UDMF completely left thing, sector and linedef types out of the specification. It makes no sense to hard code their definition if they have no fixed meaning.
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02-01-10 18:41 
