The /newstuff Chronicles #362

Graf Zahl said:

So large levels can't be fun?

"A fun large level" != "Hey Risen, this map doesn't have enough connectivity. Hope you don't mind if I add another key quest that forces the player to backtrack all the way from one end of it to the other several times, completely destroying any possible layout flow that had been designed and appearing in many forum users' 'complaints about KDiZD' lists."

Oops?

You people just have no taste! :P

KDiZD == win.

Although ZPack is definitely not in its released state. Too much filler crap between the good maps.

Backtracking several times across a gigantic map for a totally unnecessary extra key quest that was added after the level was more or less finished already is not "win" in my book, sorry. :P

What key quest are you talking about?

Also, just because it's your opinion it's not right!

That's just, like, your opinion, maaaaannnn

You still haven't told me what key quest you are talking about.

I forget which color, but it was one of the ones in M7.

So you are complaining that some of the most annoying gameplay elements in that map were removed?

The original version of that map played like utter shit but I doubt you've ever seen that version.

Huh? What's this about something being removed..? From what I was told, Risen originally built the map to have the player go through half of the original e1m7, followed by all of Risen's added section, then complete the other half of the original e1m7. The backtracking key quest was added later in development by..uh, popular request.

esselfortium said:

Huh? What's this about something being removed..? From what I was told, Risen originally built the map to have the player go through half of the original e1m7, followed by all of Risen's added section, then complete the other half of the original e1m7. The backtracking key quest was added later in development by..uh, popular request.

The original map was never really finished. Monster placement was a total mess and so was game progression. So in the end it all had to be redone completely. Maybe you have to traverse the central corridor one time too often but hey, that passage takes maybe 20 seconds to cross - in a map that requires > 20 minutes to complete. I've seen far, far worse in other maps.

That map might have needed some re-editing but there was nobody willing to do it at that point. And considering the circumstances I still think this turned out to be a good map.

The underground part in e1m3 is also way too confusing. Especially for an area that's completely redundant considering that it didn't exist in any form in the original e1m3.

Maybe a problem with KDiZD was that the team ruined the whole stuff with statements like this one.
When you're developing or announcing a project, be humble. Recognition will come if the wad deserves it. See Kristus' latest work and related topic for instance.

On the topic of KDiZD and gameplay, slowing down things with shield-holding enemies is obviously the way to go !
Not to mention this mine section in Z1M3... Argh.

I enjoyed ZPack a lot more, actually.

--

Back on topic, Cjwright79, if you yourself admitted that you got bored with your own Dagobah map, how can you expect good reviews of it ? :o

Too bad hardcore_gamer hasn't played original Plutonia's map 27, maybe he would have appreciated the tribute which is Satan's Angel a bit more.

I've yet to play Deimos Revisited, screenies doesn't look bad at all.

[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Maybe a problem with KDiZD was that the team ruined the whole stuff with statements like this one.

Remember, it wasn't the team doing this stuff, only Tormentor. Many on the team agreed that it was stupid.

Well, maybe you either mistook Nightmare Doom's question as trollish, or went along with KDiZD's reckless promoting. I'm glad I wasn't active during that period.

[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Cjwright79, if you yourself admitted that you got bored with your own Dagobah map, how can you expect good reviews of it ? :o

I got bored of making it. Or more accurately, I felt like extending it would not improve gameplay considerably. The basic concept is fierce combat that you can play like a wussy, or storm headlong into -- and six rooms was enough. How much fun is had depends on the player.

I find the trouble with large levels is the more time you invest, the more infuriating it is if you die. Yeah, saving is an option, but then you lose the palpable sense of urgency.

KDiZD had no gameplay to speak of, and I say this as someone who voted 5/5 for it (the ambiance was spectacular and worth it in my opinion) and missed the hype about it. I'd bet not a single author out of all of those who contributed to this project could come out with a detailed explanation of his map, explaining how each encounter works, how the layout flows, and so on, though I sure wish one of them would prove me wrong so I could finally understand what the hell were they thinking.


I can only imagine what went on during team discussions if they *did* care about gameplay :

"Hey guys, I've got a cool idea. Let's make E1 maps, except bigger, with tons of detail, lots of custom monsters, and the SSG !
- So, techbases for Doom 2 ?
- Nooo, 'cause it's totally like E1, see ? There's that room near the green armor that looks like the one in E1M1, and we're going to put a neat intro and all.
- Okay, so what about the gameplay ? What about the custom monsters you mentioned ?
- I've got this covered ! First, you know how the demon can be such an interesting monster and all ? Well, let's color an imp gray and give it roughly the same stats except movement, and call it stone imp !
- Wouldn't that end up with a monster that lack one of the greatest things about demons, that is, restricting player movement thanks to its own speed ?
- Are you kidding me ? It's an imp ! In gray ! A stone imp ! It's awesome ! But anyway listen me out, now I've got this guy, it's like a hell knight, sort of, except with a lion head and a shield, and he can totally block your attacks.
- So is there like a pattern to its blocking ? Can you shoot through somehow ?
- No, it's completely random, and you can't do anything even with rockets ! That makes it more fun, right ? Because it's challenging or something. That's what all the kids love with their stupid HR - ha ! that shit has no gameplay, it's just monsters randomly thrown around ! Now hear me out, we'll also put a new imp in it that'll be really cool. He'll shoot homing fireballs kind of like the revenant except it'll track the player better.
- How much better are we talking about ?
- It'll be so good at it you'll pretty much have to backtrack and hug a wall to avoid it ! Now isn't that cool or what. So much interesting tactical options : see a freakish imp, hide behind a wall. See a stone imp, shoot it until it dies. See a lion hell knight, waste your ammo or wait for it to lower its shield.
- ... Alright.
- There won't be just custom monsters ! I've got this awesome idea for a new kind of item. It'll be a bomb you pick up on the ground and then place to explode in a very specific spot so you can get through it.
- Kind of like a key.
- No 'cause it's a bomb and not a key, and there's scripting, so that makes it all different ! Anyway, there's nothing wrong with keys, in fact I think we should use more keys so there'll be an indigo key, a green key, a cyan key and a mauve key !
- Aren't you afraid we might confuse the player with so many keys ?
- I tell you, players love keys ! Another thing they love is pressing switches that do stuff like open a door in the other side of the map ; you know, like in Eternal Doom.
- I suppose Eternal Doom is popular.
- So we'll put plenty of switches and locked doors and... We need something better than a door. Oh ! I know : instakill forcefields. You can shoot through while monsters can't come out so that's super cool and then we can put a switch at the other side of the map to disable the forcefields.
- Behind a locked door, with the corresponding key that is on the other... Other side.
- You get my drift !
- Ok, that is quite a list of new features so far. Any ideas to wrap it up ?
- Why, of course. Let's add Quake stuff everywhere ! Underwater areas, bouncing grenades, sequences of switches and even our own very Chthon !
- Quake is cool. What about balancing ? Got any names for playtesting ?
- Who needs playtesters ? I've got this cool script (remember, scripting is good) that tells you how much ammo you need based on the number of monsters in the map, it'll work just fine ! As for health, we can just drop medipacks where it makes sense thematically, I'm sure it'll work out just fine.
- Hmm, alright. I think we have everything we need to make a super awesome project."

There might be factual inaccuracies in this little satire ; there might have been less factual inaccuracies if this mapset was actually worth playing more than once...

Seriously though, looking at the finished product, to believe the KDiZD team considered gameplay would be insulting their intelligence, especially in light of the remarkable work they did with ambiance. It seems pretty obvious this is your standard ZDoom "good looks and new features over gameplay" project, only on a greater scale and overall better quality, and taken as such it is an enjoyable mapset. It's very polished and many of its aspects are reminescent of many commercial shooters - good and bad ; that includes the poor gameplay. Claiming it has actual gameplay value is, frankly, ludicrous, or maybe misguided, making an unjustified logical leap from "I enjoyed this" to "this must mean it has good gameplay".

Phml said:

Claiming it has actual gameplay value is, frankly, ludicrous, or maybe misguided.

Sorry, pal, but that's clearly as offensive as me saying that Hell Revealed has no gameplay because it's just mindlessly slaying excessively large amounts of monsters. Yes, sure, I dislike this style of gameplay with a passion and I can't possibly imagine how anyone can enjoy it but there's clearly people who actually like these kinds of maps. Who am I to tell them otherwise?

Why can people who actually like these complex ZDoom maps which clearly also do not appeal to anyone expect the same respect? Just because the gameplay did not appeal to you doesn't mean it doesn't have any. Not every map must play like classic Doom.

Granted, KDiZD is not perfect and it sure has its rough edges but for that you have to consider the roots of this project which started out as a community project, not a team-based effort. And these roots are still clearly visible.

KDiZD's main problem, for me, is that the team didn't bother making it interesting on -fast, even when I suggested them that before releasing the update (it was kinda late though but I still don't accept it). In result, on -fast, the Blood Demons become less threatening than regular demons and the black imp plasma shots move as slow as ever. Grr.

Graf Zahl said:

Sorry, pal, but that's clearly as offensive as me saying that Hell Revealed has no gameplay because it's just mindlessly slaying excessively large amounts of monsters. [...]

./zdoom SUPRWEP8.DEH $hrstylewad.wad

Graf Zahl said:

Also, just because it's your opinion it's not right!

That's a new low from you. So everybody who thinks differently than you is wrong now? Never mind using evidence and support, they are automatically wrong just because you said so in a single line. Great attitude!

EDIT: It's amazing how threads always end up about kdizd.

Amazing how some idiots can take a statement and make it sound like the total opposite of what it's supposed to mean just because then it fits better into their narrowminded worldview.

zap610 said:

EDIT: It's amazing how threads always end up about kdizd.

I wonder when we will see tsozd and zinferno...

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SCNR ;)

EDIT:
Where oh where is the great banhammer when you need him?
THIS FLAMEWAR GOES ME ON THE NUTS!!!
This is Doomworld, not some Kindergarden...

I have one thing and one thing only to say about KDiZD:

THEY FUCKING DISABLED MONSTER INFIGHTING!

The single most fun and interesting gameplay mechanic in Doom, that added an entire layer of strategy to the gameplay, was TURNED OFF.

Hater-hate all you want, but that's fucking EPIC FAIL.

I think that speaks volumes. :p

Graf Zahl said:

Amazing how some idiots can take a statement and make it sound like the total opposite of what it's supposed to mean just because then it fits better into their narrowminded worldview.

DuckReconMajor said:

Well, my problem with it is that when I play E1, I expect short and fun levels. KDizzy just drags on and on and on...

Graf Zahl said:

So large levels can't be fun?

SoM said:

THEY FUCKING DISABLED MONSTER INFIGHTING!

This annoyed me too. The argument was that the greater variety of monsters made infighting more prevalent than in Doom (since there were like a half dozen types of imps, all of which infighted with each others). The obvious solution was simply using inheritance to make monster families that don't hurt each other, and leave infighting alone.

I don't think that was implemented at the time.

Doesn't make disabling infighting any less annoying though.

I wish all the different imps would fight each other.

Creaphis said:

Or, maybe that's not it, because I also gave a negative review to Simple Hellgate in the same /newstuff, and "John Cartwright" seems like a bad pseudonym for our friend CJ.

Is this something you would do in my position -- start using pseudonyms? Because you are off the mark, as I'm sure the real John Cartwright would be eager to inform you.

Yeah, I just went back around read page two, which I was avoiding for a while. This is the only thing I saw that needed addressing. As for the rest of you, you know the sound that Sideshow Bob makes when he steps on a rake? Yeah, that.

No hard feelings though. I'd like to be on good terms with you guys even if our aesthetics are at severe, intractable odds.