ZDaemon turns 109 today

Gez:

I counted all the servers using an ST binary. I'll concede your point to further underscore my own and say that sans MM8BDM it's still 99:37 or 267%.

Furthermore I believe that ST is in direct competition with zdaemon in the online competitive doom experience, and while I agree those experiences vary because of mods, zdoom versions and personnel I don't agree that they are different enough to be not be in competition with one another.

OldSparky said:

Lots of predictable insulting, and some cheesy statistics.

I tried very hard not to insult you or any body in that post. I did say you were stupid once or twice. Truth is a defense to libel and defamation be it libel or slander and those stats are just the active players on each port. It's reality.

OldSparky said:

You put a lot of text into your reply, but you failed to make any solid points about why they should be open, pathetic.

READ:

Nostar said:

Making our efforts inclusive rather than exclusive is how you grow a community. Allowing new and interested people to participate is objectively positive. All of the doomsday nonsense about open source being a cheat magnet is cowardice and smokescreen to the real motives. On the contrary, you'd have more programmers working to abolish cheating programs if they were allowed access.

Also you can refer to Ladna's post for a few more excellent and well thought reasons for opening the source.

OldSparky said:
Edit: I see no hacking what-so-ever, it's been quite a long time since I have seen any definitive hacking (at least in ZDaemon)...[/B]

OldSparky said:

I didn't say there was no hacking only that I have not seen any of it.

This is probably because like most ZDaemon developers and administrators you don't actually play doom.
[quote]OldSparky said:
ZDaemon is the most competitive multiplayer port of the two.

dew said:

2: who exactly do you disagree with re: zdaemon's competitive dominance? surely not nostar?

I don't think you know who I am, or at least you're acting as if you don't. I'm Nostar. I have hosted the zdaemon server set Totaltrash Servers for over 4 years now, 3 publicly. I help run the two most successful leagues in ZDaemon history along with tourneys and a competitive private ctf scene. I openly trash both Skulltag and Odamex for being subpar in their competitive design and I really enjoy playing ZDaemon. I've never heard of you or whatever alias you're using to sling mud like this:

OldSparky said:
I think you need to fill up your half-empty glass, or up the dose on your depression medication. [/B]

It's okay if you can't think of anything to say but at least try reading my posts before you decide I haven't said anything important. After dealing with you I might need some of those meds. You're a buzz kill in a big way.

kristus said:
It should matter to him, because without open source. There would never have been a Zdaemon to begin with.

Ah, but without closed source there would never have been a DOOM in the first place!

myk said:

Ah, but without closed source there would never have been a DOOM in the first place!

How the fuck do you know.

Hey without me there would never have been twitter. You'll never know if it's true because both twitter and I exist.

myk said:

Ah, but without closed source there would never have been a DOOM in the first place!

I predict much bites from this.

Edit: too late.

myk said:

Ah, but without closed source there would never have been a DOOM in the first place!

that does not change the fact that without open source doom zdaemon would not exist.

what point are you even trying to make?

Csonicgo said:

I predict much bites from this.

it's not even a bite, i seriously have no idea what myk was implying or where he was going with that train of thought.

Nostar said:
Hey without me there would never have been twitter.

Wow, really? I knew you ran TT servers but I didn't know anything about your involvement with twitter! Impressive!

What I mean is that DOOM was developed in a closed source environment and that procedure was an incentive for id to produce money, making an effort to popularize the game back in the early '90s. Perhaps we could try to argue that this proprietary incentive wasn't essential in DOOM's success, but I wouldn't put my money on that. Hence, by this logic, yes, ZDaemon owes its existence to open source, because that is how the source came to our hands, but DOOM the game and source ports owe it to (commercial, in this case) closed source development.

Closed source in the community also owes it to the custom license Carmack released the source under in '97. He corrected this later with a dual license, freeing the software for real with the GPL, but that wasn't retroactive for what had been done already.

myk said:

What I mean is that DOOM was developed in a closed source environment and that procedure was an incentive for id to produce money

And? how does this contribute to the thread's current conversation?

They don't have to open the source, and trying to make them feel guilty in an attempt to make them do so is probably useless. Perhaps not every idea in favor of releasing port sources is correct and defensible!

myk said:

They don't have to open the source

But they should.

myk said:

and trying to make them feel guilty in an attempt to make them do so is probably useless.

Looks like it's working so far. Look at all the new registrations just to post in this thread.

myk said:

Perhaps not every idea in favor of releasing port sources is correct and defensible!

Because of idiocy and stubbornness of the developers? You might have a point.

well, i'm going to shoot my own foot right now, but the last two seasons of zddl had prize money for the top3 players, so it's pro and the comparison stands. i'm certain jkist wouldn't want to pay to unregistered mysterious players that magically beat the most skilled veterans. anyways, be more condescending to the zdaemon competitive scene, please. it's carrying your point across wonderfully, what with it being the only viable competition in multiplayer doom.

Oh, really now. That's why I haven't heard of your little "pro" competitions til now as a member of a Doom forum and player of Doom while I've heard of Quake Live without having anything to do with Quake besides playing a trial of that one XBLA game for an hour. It's not even remotely on the same level(i.e. MAJOR, as in MLG and other major eSports leagues, like I said in the last post), and you've still failed to try to state anything to the contrary about the point of a legitimate company vs. a community. Also, why not just require an account or something for the "competitive leagues" and let the normal servers work like the other source ports?

There, now you actually have something condescending said about your competitive scene. Now that I think of it, the Zdaemon community members coming here and shitting up this thread like you and OldSparky remind me more of the Halo fanbase than anything. Say one thing not praising the thing like some deity, and everyone starts screaming at you like you just pissed on their computer.

i stand by my earlier opinion that you don't really know what you are talking about, single player guy.

A.k.a. "I barely read anything you wrote and am pulling something out of my ass to counter it." Good show. I think we're done here, you and I. You've proven yourself the same level of stupid as a few other people whose posts I can no longer see.

And to think, all I said was I didn't like the idea of an account login to play a Doom source port.

myk said:

They don't have to open the source, and trying to make them feel guilty in an attempt to make them do so is probably useless. Perhaps not every idea in favor of releasing port sources is correct and defensible!

zdaemon being closed source is a symptom of a greater issue that stems from mismanagement and an administration that cuts off its nose to spite its face. it's not the problem itself, just one of the more noticeable symptoms.

for the record, i'm not necessarily against participating in a community with a closed source port as long as the programmer has his head on straight, though it's great insurance. hell i've been hanging around the skulltag community for the past two years and that's been closed longer than zdaemon has. maybe it's because I can build things like altdeath (which happens to have threads critical of the administration like this) and post polls about skulltag going open source without my head getting bitten off, called a "traitor", banned from the master IRC and forums, have the lead programmer think that me or anybody else personally tried to sic the FBI on him, et cetera.

EDIT: also this assessment obviously doesn't apply to absolutely everybody who has any sort of authority in zdaemon, period, in fact i'm friends with a few of them. however if you're reading this and feeling all defensive instead of nodding your head to at least some of these things you're probably part of the problem.

Xeros612 said:
Say one thing not praising the thing like some deity, and everyone starts screaming at you like you just pissed on their computer.

Hi! Who are you again?

Dew is quite a regular here, not just some dude that hopped right in from that foreign country called ZDaemon to mess with a thread he has nothing to do with. He's also pretty cool and knows a lot about the competitive side of DOOM, either deathmatch and CTF or speed running. He also types in lower case, so if anything he's whispering, not screaming. Just so you know.

Xeros612 said:
Oh, really now. That's why I haven't heard of your little "pro" competitions til now as a member of a Doom forum and player of Doom

well, duh. you clearly lack a wider outlook of doom's communities, particularly the multiplayer ones. i don't know what you expected from butting into this thread without any relevant knowledge.

while I've heard of Quake Live without having anything to do with Quake besides playing a trial of that one XBLA game for an hour. It's not even remotely on the same level(i.e. MAJOR, as in MLG and other major eSports leagues, like I said in the last post) and you've still failed to try to state anything to the contrary about the point of a legitimate company vs. a community.

i'm not really trying to compare zdaemon and quake live, that'd be silly for obvious reasons. however i don't see why a community port shouldn't be inspired by working semi-commercial model.
oh and you shouldn't say you heard about ql, but about the leagues played on it, because zdaemon != zddl. and while it's true that ql was picked by mlg this year (no games played in it yet), it was also dropped by iem, so it's pretty much struggling for survival as an esports game.

Also, why not just require an account or something for the "competitive leagues" and let the normal servers work like the other source ports?

well, if you didn't just skim this thread and read the relevant posts, you'd know you could play zdaemon without logging in, because game servers don't require it.

There, now you actually have something condescending said about your competitive scene. Now that I think of it, the Zdaemon community members coming here and shitting up this thread like you and OldSparky remind me more of the Halo fanbase than anything. Say one thing not praising the thing like some deity, and everyone starts screaming at you like you just pissed on their computer.

this is funny, because i was in this thread way before you started with your stupid crusade, and i'm registered at doomworld much longer than you are. and most of my posts were made in speedrunning, not shitty ee threads. but i guess i'm already in your ignore list.

Dew, it's really not worth arguing this much with some of these people. You'd have more luck arguing your case with a brick wall. No point in even trying.

OldSparky said:

And of course I'm talking about ZDaemon, the best competitive players play ZDaemon (be it on advertised servers or private unlisted servers). Skulltag caters to mappers and doesn't stick to the classic feel as strictly as ZDaemon does, so it's no surprise there.

If the competitive players are elsewhere, where are they?

I'm not going to pretend that I've played Doom multiplayer recently, but last I checked all the games I've found interesting in ZDaemon were long gone.

Xeros612 said:

That's why I haven't heard of your little "pro" competitions til now as a member of a Doom forum and player of Doom

Not like DW is the be all and end all of the community. Look around, get a clue, then open your mouth. Talking shit while showing that you don't even realize how separate the multiplayer community is doesn't help your points. Some time ago, as a member of a Doom forum and player of Doom I didn't even know Doomworld.com existed.

wow, amen to Nightfang.

regarding dew's comment, doesnt matter if zdaemon adopts a business model now, i'm a regular Quakelive player, and I can tell you that both zdaemon and quakelive suffer from the same issue regardless of adoption of revenue model: IT'S TOO LATE! biggest complaint with ql is that most people dont wanna pay for a game which they bought 10 years ago again. So if you want people to pay to play the old doom, good luck with that.

game business is a tough nut to crack

You should all just settle this in a 1-on-1 on zdaemon with the new beta version

Public or private server? ;-)

Public always!

1.09 Beta 23 just got released. It will automatically update on connection.

Here's the changelog:

262. Blocked the silent BFG dmflag from Heretic/Hexen.
263. Implemented random sound variations for Heretic/Hexen.
264. Linespecials that were implemented/extended and will work online:
new:
LS_Floor_MoveToValue
LS_Ceiling_MoveToValue
LS_Thing_ChangeTID
LS_Sector_SetFriction
LS_NoiseAlert
LS_ForceField
LS_ClearForceField
LS_Plat_UpNearestWaitDownStay
LS_Teleport_ZombieChanger
LS_Thing_Damage
LS_Thing_ProjectileAimed
LS_Thing_ProjectileIntercept
LS_Thing_Raise
LS_Sector_SetFloorScale2
LS_Sector_SetCeilingScale2
added arg0==0 check:
LS_Thing_SetSpecial
LS_Thing_Activate
LS_Thing_Deactivate
LS_Thing_Remove
LS_Thing_Spawn
LS_Thing_SpawnNoFog
LS_Thing_SpawnFacing
LS_Thing_SetTranslation
added floor sound:
Plat_DownWaitUpStayLip (tag, speed, delay, lip, floor-sound?)
added type arg:
LS_TranslucentLine
265. Fixed a bug that prevented game saves.
266. The update dialog in ZLauncher can now produce a list of affected files.
267. Fixed a recently introduced bug that would not let rockets pass through
the window in d5m1.
268. Fixed projectiles thrusted by ThingThrust and ThingThrustZ linespecials.
269. Fixed monster reflected projectiles.

270. Game loading doesn't mix well with start/end of game transitions.
Fixed.
271. When someone canceled a game load he'd get into a mixed player/
spectator state. Fixed.

I love the rapid updates and the new update system, big win there :)

Also, I have noticed 1.09 is more enjoyable when ping is an issue or CPU lag, or server oddities. Good work by the development team, they have contributed a ton of hard work to the doom community and I thank them!