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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
Registered: 07-10

or just use a webcam which caps whole recording session

06-17-12 01:14 #

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dew
Feral Kid

Posts: 2220
Registered: 05-08

j4rio said:
or just use a webcam which caps whole recording session

why would i want to show anyone how i grind a level for several hours? i want to feel comfortable, not presentable. :PPPPPP

wesley is right. the first step should be a slight rename, so the old C-N still stays as it is. all the old records can be transitioned to this new umbrella structure, but distinguishing the "ages" should be a vital point. it will untie our hands in many issues too!

06-17-12 01:36 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 6568
Registered: 07-00

wesleyjohnson said:
Even with messing with the random numbers a cheater can pre-record
critical action sequences and play them back at will using a keypress.

Not sure what you mean here. In what sense? You can't prepare for "critical action sequences" if the game is completely different every time.

If they want, they could write code to adapt a playback to aim shots to where the monster actually is, [...]

This has already been discussed earlier in the thread; please go back and read my earlier comment.

The real point is that as long as you cannot tell, it is always a suspicion. My point is that using internet, having serious comparisons is futile. So I say, try to keep it informal and don't take it serious, then there is less incentive to go through the work needed for that level of cheating.

Yeah, I'm increasingly of the opinion that this is probably the best option, both from a technical and a social perspective.

j4rio said:
or just use a webcam which caps whole recording session

1. Construct the demo, using tool assist or other cheats
2. Set up camera
3. Record yourself in front of a computer while it plays back your demo, while you press buttons on a keyboard that isn't plugged in, carefully synchronising your keypresses with the game movement.

06-17-12 02:07 #

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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
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dew said:

why would i want to show anyone how i grind a level for several hours? i want to feel comfortable, not presentable. :PPPPPP

But hey, if you think about it, it would solve pretty much anything. You cap as you're setting up your junk, empty folder where demo will appear once it gets recorded, few hours of funny czech dirty talk and live recording of what is going to be the desired result, without actually having a clue that this attempt will end up in DSDA. ;) You could also playback it, maybe some additional acting. But yeah, I suppose it's too much to ask for. I trust everybody currently actively recording, although I've no clue if it also works vice versa.

fraggle said:

1. Construct the demo, using tool assist or other cheats
2. Set up camera
3. Record yourself in front of a computer while it plays back your demo, while you press buttons on a keyboard that isn't plugged in, carefully synchronising your keypresses with the game movement.

You don't just get desired demo within one attempt. It'd look way too suspicious.

06-17-12 02:28 #

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Archy
Member

Posts: 646
Registered: 11-09

I've already said all of this but it look like it needs to be said again. COMPET-N has always been about playing Doom the real way, with Vanilla Doom V1.9. Chocolate-Doom & PrBoom+ shouldn't be allowed - not because of potential cheating - but because those are not "the real Doom," they are master replicas. Source Ports users can still compete against COMPET-N player at DSDA. My E3M3-212 was not just against Radek Pecka's E3M3-218, but also Kyle McAwesome's PrBoom+ E3M3-216. I did achieve a E3M3-217, but I wouldn't submit a demo until Mr. McAwesome was beat.

As for cheating, invite them to a co-op game and constantly move around. That would continuously randomize how the Random Number Generator affects the game, thus being even harder to cheat at than a "random seed" generated from a server.

Playing Vanilla Doom over the internet (for anyone who knows how to forward a port) is quite simple, I'll make a public tutorial sometime.

And yes, fx02, I know you don't intend to change COMPET-N so this is not directed at you.

------------------------Different Topic------------------------

I think a lot about the fuss over the legality of Source Ports at COMPET-N does not have to do with compatibility, cheating, enjoyment, or any of that; I think it's recognition. People who spend hours trying to achieve a record who finally achieve it feel slapped in the face once they find their record is not recognized by COMPET-N, not for cheating, but simply for using a version of Doom virtually identical to Vanilla V1.9 but just not being considered "real" because one small change has been made, it works natively on a modern Operating System.

They know they worked just as hard as those C-N players but their demo doesn't get marked with those "CN"s, their demo doesn't get placed in videos like this, their demo doesn't get remembered, yet they worked so hard.

This is why I've always like vdgg's cntablesyyyy_mm_dd.zip, it gives recognition to records that are invalid for COMPET-N but are still completely un-cheated. COMPET-N records that have been beaten by a Source Port user are marked in Yellow, and at the bottom of the page, the time and author of the demo that beat the C-N entry with a Source Port is listed, thus giving him recognition.

I call C-N records that have been beaten buy a demo created with a Source Port: "Yellow Records"

I call demos recorded with Source Ports that are world records: "Purple Records," despite the fact that they are not purple in cntablesyyyy_mm_dd.zip

I think Leaderboards like cntablesyyyy_mm_dd.zip should be listed at COMPET-N, with beaten Vanilla Demos being in Yellow and Source Port records being in Purple.

06-17-12 03:33 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 4051
Registered: 10-05

What you guys have to do is look past your personal convictions and "I feel..." statements and ask yourselves what you really want to accomplish by resurrecting Compet-n. If you want your website to exist as a static mausoleum dedicated to Compet-n's former glory then you're on the right track. If you actually want to drum up some interest in recording on classic Compet-n wads and invite some new speedrunners to the game then you're misguided.

Archy said:
DOSBox for anyone with basic DOS knowledge is no pain in the ass.

I first played Doom in the mid-nineties, which makes me a member of the only demographic that is even remotely willing to put up with DOS emulation today. I've done it, I've set up a vanilla Doom DosBox config, and I put the command lines for recording within the .conf files themselves so I didn't need to juggle even more batch files and shortcuts. It was still a pain in the ass. There are plenty of Doomers who've found Doom later in its lifespan and these guys have never had to deal with DOS before. They also have infinite digital amusements competing for their attention so you need to make Compet-n infinitely accessible. Here's what you do: accept demos from any port compatible with vanilla 1.9. Link to the more popular ports on your home page, but don't overwhelm the user with choice; highlight PrBoom+ and Chocolate Doom to help people decide. Then, in your record database, have a little button after each entry that says "Ready to break the record?" or something to that effect when you mouse-over. This link will automatically generate a batch or shortcut file with the right command line for the user's port.

fx02 said:
As stated before, Compet-n will always accept only Vanilla demos. I will not change that because I promised it when I asked for Compet-n source.

By this, do you mean that you were able to get in touch with Adam Hegyi and ask for his endorsement? I thought he was missing in action.

06-18-12 18:28 #

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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
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Actually after jinxing a bit with vanilla, I realised I really don't mind if c-n stays as it is and was. If you think about it, nothing will currently change the fact that there is only a heap of active recorders and only slight portion out of the heap is willing to record for c-n. Some changes on rocketscience level will really have no impact at all, nothing will change. At least not with current activity.

And as for the dosbox thing, Archy handed me over a template of pre-set settings and everything and I had it working within minutes.

Offtopic - there are still things that bother me, like when I start doom with recording parameter on, the game is in semi-frozen state and I have to press 'strafe on' or turn to sides to unfreeze it. If I do it too soon, while doom loads, and press strafe on/turn too soon while screen wiping happens, it can twist you to random angle. I wonder if it can be fixed as it's fairly annoying.

Also, I've never known there is possibility to set higher gamma in vanilla with F11, is it restricted while recording for c-n or something? I really hadn't a clue about this before.

06-18-12 19:08 #

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Archy
Member

Posts: 646
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Creaphis, COMPET-N is not about "drum[ing] up some interest in recording on classic Compet-n wads and invit[ing] some new speedrunners to the game," it's about Vanilla Doom competition, and if that means only 2 demo are sent to /INCOMING a year, then so be it.

I like the fact that there's an organization that still only accepts demos in the truest format (V1.9 Vanilla), that's something we don't see often in any old school speedruning organization, other than SDA (NOT DSDA); besides, there's no need to have COMPET-N accept Source Port demos anyway, we have DSDA for that.

06-18-12 19:27 #

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Archy
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j4rio said:
Offtopic - there are still things that bother me, like when I start doom with recording parameter on, the game is in semi-frozen state and I have to press 'strafe on' or turn to sides to unfreeze it. If I do it too soon, while doom loads, and press strafe on/turn too soon while screen wiping happens, it can twist you to random angle. I wonder if it can be fixed as it's fairly annoying.

kimo_xvirus understands you're issue better than I ever will, contact him about it. I know what you're talking about, but he knows all the technical "gibberish" behind it.

------------------------Different Topic------------------------

j4rio said:
I've never known there is possibility to set higher gamma in vanilla with F11, is it restricted while recording for c-n or something? I really hadn't a clue about this before.

If it is indeed restricted for COMPET-N (which it's not), then every single one of my demos is invalid... Here's a random tip, if you press F11 while your screen is red from a rocket hit, your screen will reset and no longer be red. I've never used that technique but I bleive it's a common tactic among Deathmatchers. More info on that here:
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Gamma_corr..._resets_palette
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/No_red_cheat

------------------------Different Topic------------------------

As for setting up DOSBox, I'll need to make a thread sometime (not today) about getting Doom COMPET-N ready in DOSBox with out having to do all that nonsense. As for the meantime, I'm working on getting Vanilla Doom online ready without hassle, you should see a thread on that soon.

Also, j4rio, make sure you don't accidentally record a demo with doomp.exe or doom2p.exe (notice the Ps), those are EXEs I used to play -complevel 2 wads that where to much for Vanilla Doom to handle, such as Scythe 2. Doomp.exe and doom2p.exe are modified(!!!) version of Vanilla Doom with the limits removed, and therefor are not suitable for COMPET-N. The "P" stand for "Plus" by the way, more info on that here.

06-18-12 19:45 #

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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
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Is there any way to have automatically set gamma on higher level before recording instead of doing it manually during each attempt?

06-18-12 21:17 #

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chungy
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 1692
Registered: 06-05

Archy said:
Creaphis, COMPET-N is not about "drum[ing] up some interest in recording on classic Compet-n wads and invit[ing] some new speedrunners to the game," it's about Vanilla Doom competition, and if that means only 2 demo are sent to /INCOMING a year, then so be it.

This pretty much can be summed up as "I missed Creaphis' point". Either that or you just want Compet-N to remain dead. After all, who needs it, we have DSDA!

Seriously, the point of vanilla demos is obvious: the rules of the game remain consistent. That is the point you're making against source ports, isn't it? Well, if they can record vanilla-compatible demos (which is trival to double check, even a -timedemo would make desyncs obvious), that means the game rules are not modified.

Really, if you want authenticity you might as well tell everyone that they are required to dredge up a mid-90s computer and working 14" CRT monitor, fiddle with DOS device drivers and similar bullshit, and only install Doom from the original floppy disks. Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

For whatever it's worth, I would want newcomers to buy Doom from Steam or whatever latest compilation that might not necessarily even include Vanilla Doom (who may be too young to ever have used DOS and possibly only passibly familiar with it because they read about it in a history book), to load up PrBoom+ with the appropriate -complevel and start trying to compete. The moment you tell this person he MUST use DOSBox and MUST use the original executables, you've lost him. You are dooming (no pun) Compet-N to certain death by making it an old-foggies-only club.

Summary:
Vanilla compat requirement: Yes
Vanilla engine requirement: No

06-18-12 21:39 #

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Archy
Member

Posts: 646
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j4rio said:
Is there any way to have automatically set gamma on higher level before recording instead of doing it manually during each attempt?

Yes, run "Edit Doom Mouse Sensitivity.bat" and change the line "usegamma 0" to "usegamma 4"

I have mine on "usegamma 3"

Possible values are: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4

If for some reason this doesn't work, let me know and I'll create a fix.

06-18-12 21:57 #

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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
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chungy said:

This pretty much can be summed up as "I missed Creaphis' point". Either that or you just want Compet-N to remain dead. After all, who needs it, we have DSDA!

Yes, you have DSDA where you can record whatever you want however you want and if you want a C-N mark you record with vanilla. What's so weird about that? If you want popularity, then sors, not even prboom+company is all that active, and figuring out just prboom took me like 4 months besides anyway. Chances are that nothing at all would change even if you allow other ports for recording, besides that C-N accepted vanilla only demos for far over decade and suddenly changing it just wouldn't feel right nor fair. Yes, there may be only 0.001% difference, but it is there. And what exactly has doom installation to do with demo equality? Do you get different dooms or... ? As for the differences, well... Actually there are differences between vanilla and other vanilla-recording ports I've used (I didn't use choco so far though). From what I noticed besides the casually said stuff like monster counter, easy slow-mo, etc. are - red screen after getting hurt in vanilla is much more annoying than prboom one. Then monsters are shown differently if they are on higher spot than player - they can shoot you and so can you shoot them, but you have no real clue where exactly they are, which is especially annoying with hitscan. Then sniping into distance is much more troublesome than with prboom as it's quite difficult to differentiate a pixel that is a wall and pixel that is a monster. Then punching/sawing is feeling different. Then object collision feels a lot more extreme, almost feels like getting glued to those lamps and whatnot, much more than in prboom, even though it's just some sort of ilussion (as demos would desync). That's what I noticed just from few hours of playing original doom and then comparing it to prboom, where I've over 60 hours of time just from raw prboom demos, not considering time spent doing them. I'm sure there is much more stuff that is different enough to note that I just haven't noticed so far.

06-18-12 22:48 #

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Archy
Member

Posts: 646
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chungy said:
This pretty much can be summed up as "I missed Creaphis' point". Either that or you just want Compet-N to remain dead. After all, who needs it, we have DSDA!

Archy said:
COMPET-N is... about Vanilla Doom competition, and if that means only 2 demo are sent to /INCOMING a year, then so be it.

I'm pretty sure two demos a year would fit your definition of dead, and you said "After all, who needs it, we have DSDA!" which is exactly my point, your Source Port demos can go there.

Again, COMPET-N has always been about recording with Vanilla Doom, and if people no longer use Vanilla Doom, then we'll let it die. DSDA has everything COMPET-N has and more for the Source Port speed runner.

Why are we trying to change COMPET-N into DSDA if DSDA already exists?

It sounds like you want COMPET-N's popularity to remain, while I want COMPET-N's principles to remain and refuse to sacrifice them in order to increase popularity, especially when we already have a speed running organization (DSDA, again!) that does everything you want COMPET-N to be.

You say -complevel 2 Source Ports should be accepted, but they shouldn't. Why? Because they are NOT equal and kimo_xvirus explained that. Every small difference affects the game, it may be that absence of the one tic start is a differance, but that one tic of difference is still a difference, an inequality.

But you say "Really, if you want authenticity you might as well tell everyone that they are required to dredge up a mid-90s computer and working 14" CRT monitor, fiddle with DOS device drivers and similar bullshit, and only install Doom from the original floppy disks." and yes, these do make differences and do give some an advantage over others but the principle software (Vanilla V1.9) remains, giving both players, regardless if one's on a 486 and the other a quad-core, the same potential in their abilities (such as fast start) - performing those "abilities" may be harder for one than the other though. Having better hardware than someone else is a legitimate advantage, what is not a legitimate advantage - or disadvantage as in the case of the fast start, is having the principle of the game (Vanilla V1.9) altered.

Now of course when I talk about people having legal advantages over people because of their system, I am not talking about people user their system in such a way that gives Vanilla Doom TAS features such as slow-motion and save states.

In summery, COMPET-N has always been about the real Doom (V1.9 Vanilla), and it should remain that way even if that means it must die.

------------------------Different Topic------------------------

chungy said:
For whatever it's worth, I would want newcomers to buy Doom from Steam or whatever latest compilation that might not necessarily even include Vanilla Doom (who may be too young to ever have used DOS and possibly only passibly familiar with it because they read about it in a history book), to load up PrBoom+ with the appropriate -complevel and start trying to compete.

I would be enraged if I payed money for a game only to get a replica of the game i bought (in this case, a Source Port). That's like selling Tutankhamun's mask only to give the buyer a replica. It may be a master replica that not ever the most educated egyptologist could differencate between it and the real thing, but it is still NOT Tutankhamun's mask, it is a replica, and thus not what the buyer had believed to have bought [fraud].

Now adding a Source Port along with Vanilla Doom, that's okay and I'd recommend it. I always set up Chocolate-Doom for people when I install Doom on their computer, but Vanilla Doom on DOSBox isn't even complicated if set up right (unless Steam has changed in the last year, their setup of Doom is NOT at all right). Just ask j4rio how simple a properly setup DOSBox is, and I could have made it even easier, but I know j4rio's not an idiot.

chungy said:
The moment you tell this person he MUST use DOSBox and MUST use the original executables, you've lost him. You are dooming (no pun) Compet-N to certain death by making it an old-foggies-only club.

Again, DSDA to the rescue!

Last edited by Archy on 06-18-12 at 22:58

06-18-12 22:52 #

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Archy
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j4rio said:
From what I noticed besides the casually said stuff like monster counter, easy slow-mo, etc. are - red screen after getting hurt in vanilla is much more annoying than prboom one. Then monsters are shown differently if they are on higher spot than player - they can shoot you and so can you shoot them, but you have no real clue where exactly they are, which is especially annoying with hitscan. Then sniping into distance is much more troublesome than with prboom as it's quite difficult to differentiate a pixel that is a wall and pixel that is a monster. Then punching/sawing is feeling different. Then object collision feels a lot more extreme, almost feels like getting glued to those lamps and whatnot, much more than in prboom, even though it's just some sort of ilussion (as demos would desync).

Great point by j4rio, and j4rio, "red screen after getting hurt in vanilla is much more annoying than prboom one." what's really annoying to me is when you walk across a whole bunch of Armor bonuses and the whole screen becomes just impossible to look at. Trust me, it's way worst than the red.

06-18-12 23:11 #

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TimeOfDeath
Forum Regular

Posts: 2009
Registered: 06-06

I also don't think port demos should be accepted at compet-n. There are a bunch of subtle differences between prboom and vanilla - even if the differences don't have a big affect, or any, on recording - the differences are still there and people will always argue about them. Players have played both vanilla and prboom before, you just have to get used to it. Most recently Vile beat his pl32 max prboom+ record with vanilla.

What I don't get is why DOSbox demos are accepted but ChocolateDoom demos are rejected. Isn't DOSbox an emulator - a replica of DOS? Isn't "DOSbox to DOS" the same as "ChocolateDoom to doom2.exe"?

06-18-12 23:52 #

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Looper
Member

Posts: 385
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So nothing changed except one more site to rip the community.

06-19-12 00:05 #

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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
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Pretty much. :|

Not sure what were the expectancies though.

06-19-12 00:11 #

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chungy
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 1692
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TimeOfDeath said:
What I don't get is why DOSbox demos are accepted but ChocolateDoom demos are rejected. Isn't DOSbox an emulator - a replica of DOS? Isn't "DOSbox to DOS" the same as "ChocolateDoom to doom2.exe"?

That's what i was getting at with my hyberbole -- the insistence on using "real" Doom (implying that all source ports are illegitimate or somehow not "real" Doom). If that's considered rationale, then DOSBox isn't "real" DOS.

06-19-12 00:14 #

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Graf Zahl
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 7451
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I don't know - but I have the ominous feeling that if people like Archy have their say this site will be dead before anybody notices it exists...

Twist it like whatever you want but in an age of 64 bit operating systems a DOS executable is more or less obsolete and as has been said, DOSBox is not the real deal. In fact, that's much more prone to cheating than using a source port. The manipulations in an emulated environment are endless if you got the technical knowledge.

06-19-12 00:35 #

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dew
Feral Kid

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TimeOfDeath said:
What I don't get is why DOSbox demos are accepted but ChocolateDoom demos are rejected. Isn't DOSbox an emulator - a replica of DOS? Isn't "DOSbox to DOS" the same as "ChocolateDoom to doom2.exe"?

this needs to be quoted over and over. i'm going to be selfish here - dosbox doom is TOTAL SHIT for me. i get angry very, very fast because of horrible mouse response and stuff, so i've considered c-n a closed door for me. i'm not amongst the lucky ones who can use an ancient win98 computer or feel at home on dosbox. i was okay with it for a long time, but this recent apologetic campaign is chaffing at me. what the hell, TRUE doom? i've played TRUE doom in the 90's and that dosbox stuff doesn't feel like it in the slightest, so stop pushing it into everyone's face like it's the word of god. properly set-up choco feels more like good old doom than all the crap dosbox can muster, at least on my computer(s). SDA is very much right to disallow dosbox emulation!

sorry for getting emotional, but i won't be using dosbox for anything doom-related.

06-19-12 00:37 #

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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
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Funny, choco freezes my PC whenever I quit it while dosbox doom seems to work just fine, except that little trouble after startup. I guess we should after all just stick to pr... no wait that's obscure and cheatsy. Or cheatful? Whatever you name it.

06-19-12 00:54 #

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Archy
Member

Posts: 646
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TimeOfDeath said:
What I don't get is why DOSbox demos are accepted but ChocolateDoom demos are rejected. Isn't DOSbox an emulator - a replica of DOS? Isn't "DOSbox to DOS" the same as "ChocolateDoom to doom2.exe"?

The emulator doesn't change the principle software (Vanilla V1.9) while Chocolate-Doom does. Yes, "DOSbox to DOS" is the same as "ChocolateDoom to doom2.exe" but COMPET-N isn't about DOS, it's about doom2.exe. COMPET-N players have regularly been running Doom in an emulated DOS environment since the release of Windows 95. It wasn't illegal then it is shouldn't be illegal now. I'm literally repeating my self so I suggest you read this post. It talks about everything from "why DOSBox should be allowed" to all the way to things such as "cheating potentials" (NOT "why DOSBox should be allowed to (for) cheating").

Graf Zahl said:
DOSBox is not the real deal. In fact, that's much more prone to cheating than using a source port. The manipulations in an emulated environment are endless if you got the technical knowledge.

Read this.

dew said:
what the hell, TRUE doom? i've played TRUE doom in the 90's and that dosbox stuff doesn't feel like it in the slightest, so stop pushing it into everyone's face like it's the word of god. properly set-up choco feels more like good old doom than all the crap dosbox can muster, at least on my computer(s). SDA is very much right to disallow dosbox emulation!

I've also played "True Doom" on real DOS 6.22 and Windows 98, I could record demos on my old machine but DOSBox's mouse response feels much better. [I have used a 95 machine what worked just as good as DOSBox though, don't have it anymore sadly :(] As we can all see, the way software works on one computer is not the same for all computes. For some of us, DOSBox, Chocolate-Doom and what not work fine, on others, that's not the case. But dew, I am almost 100% certain that I could get DOSBox working at least much better than it is now on your computer. You sound like a strange case though, so it would probably require me to physically be at your machine.

Anyways, about software not working, earlier today I was trying to get a multiplayer Vanilla Doom deathmatch up and going with Toxic Barrel, who lives in Finland. I used the same method that has worked on so many people's computers, and it was a complete fail. Hours of frustration (he was up till 3:40 AM his time) and nothing came of it. Still don't know what was wrong. I honestly know how you feel dew, but believing that DOSBox should be disallowed at COMPET-N is very childish. I have already discussed the potential cheating that could be used with DOSBox here, and I stated why despite all the possible cheats, it should still be allowed.

------------------------Different Topic------------------------

Notice I linked to this three times excluding this one?

Last edited by Archy on 06-19-12 at 02:40

06-19-12 02:30 #

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fx02
Mini-Member

Posts: 64
Registered: 01-04

:) funny thread...

Why are you people even discussing about adding PrBoom+ to COMPET-N. That will NEVER happen, not even in dreams.
As j4rio pointed, playing in PrBoom+ is like 30 times easier, not because you have slow motion, but because you have uncapped frames, SR50 all time, much much better mouse (smoother), and almost EVERYTHING is visually different and it's EASIER to achieve then in Vanilla.
So please, stop even mentioning PrBoom+. I will not add PrBoom+ in any form.

COMPET-N database will stay as it is. Vanilla and nothing else. Over.

All I was thinking of was to create additional database and call it Doom competition (+copy all demo records from COMPET-N database) and to allow only Chocolate Doom because we are in 2012 and that somehow feels right. I asked some old COMPET-n players and they agree with my idea for new database and Choco with timer while playing/recording.
People like to compete, DSDA doesn't have points, and in new database we will have same point system as in COMPET-N, we can have new categories, coooperative, or whatever we can do this days.

Unfortunately, I cant do it right now because I'm populating old COMPET-N database with records done to 31.05.2012. And COMPET-N was like already dead, but people still recorded demos for it. So, I'm not seeing it dead, not yet. If we get one demo/year, fine. At least it will get into database now :)

Regards

06-19-12 06:55 #

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Belial
Senior Member

Posts: 2008
Registered: 09-05

fx02 said:
As j4rio pointed, playing in PrBoom+ is like 30 times easier, not because you have slow motion, but because you have uncapped frames, SR50 all time, much much better mouse (smoother), and almost EVERYTHING is visually different and it's EASIER to achieve then in Vanilla.

Regardless of me agreeing with keeping C-N vanilla only, this is nonsense (SR50 in particular).

All in the config really.

06-19-12 09:22 #

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j4rio
Senior Member

Posts: 1806
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fx02 said:

Why are you people even discussing about adding PrBoom+ to COMPET-N. That will NEVER happen, not even in dreams.
As j4rio pointed, playing in PrBoom+ is like 30 times easier, not because you have slow motion, but because you have uncapped frames, SR50 all time, much much better mouse (smoother), and almost EVERYTHING is visually different and it's EASIER to achieve then in Vanilla. [/B]

:|

You should refrain from talking about prboom if you are clueless about it. The points I mentioned are barely notable. The only significant difference for me is just the timer/monster counter not present.

06-19-12 09:58 #

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fx02
Mini-Member

Posts: 64
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Belial said:

Regardless of me agreeing with keeping C-N vanilla only, this is nonsense (SR50 in particular).

All in the config really.

Ok, so you say that you can achieve permanent SR50 while playing Vanilla or Chocolate doom? Show me please.

06-19-12 10:05 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 9151
Registered: 07-07

fraggle said:
While this is true of the closed-source port idea (another reason why I think it's a waste of time), it isn't true for the scheme I proposed: the game changes every time depending on a random seed received from the remote server at the start of the game, so you can't record and replay later.

It'd be child's play to record the server-issued seed and reuse it.

Maybe the solution is with a client-server architecture. You connect to a competition server and play with a client. The server is the one that does the recording. Drawbacks: it subjects demos to the same Internet issues as multiplayer (lag, disconnections, etc.) and it'd require people to create an account on that server.

06-19-12 10:25 #

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tempun
Member

Posts: 587
Registered: 08-09

fx02 said:
Ok, so you say that you can achieve permanent SR50 while playing Vanilla or Chocolate doom? Show me please.

No; just that it's a non-issue as it's off by default and easily detected programmatically.

06-19-12 11:00 #

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fraggle
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Gez said:

It'd be child's play to record the server-issued seed and reuse it.

Erm, no. The seed is randomly generated by the server each time you start a new demo - that's the point.

Maybe the solution is with a client-server architecture. You connect to a competition server and play with a client.

Nope. Such a scheme would be subject to replay attacks: you record your TAS demo beforehand, then connect to the server and replay your recorded demo.

Graf Zahl said:
I don't know - but I have the ominous feeling that if people like Archy have their say this site will be dead before anybody notices it exists...

Twist it like whatever you want but in an age of 64 bit operating systems a DOS executable is more or less obsolete and as has been said, DOSBox is not the real deal. In fact, that's much more prone to cheating than using a source port. The manipulations in an emulated environment are endless if you got the technical knowledge.

Yeah, I basically agree with what Graf Zahl says here. This kind of attitude reeks of a kind of purist extremism that lost sight of what the purpose of all this is supposed to be. Rules like "demos must be in Vanilla-compatible format" are fairly reasonable and rationally justifiable (to give a level playing field), but I don't think ideas like "PrBoom+ and Chocolate Doom are not proper Doom" are. It's quite demonstrably "the same game", because the demos would desync in Vanilla if it wasn't.

Pray tell, why is it that using PrBoom+ or Chocolate Doom is unacceptable, but using DOSbox somehow is? Once you reach this level of pedantism and attention to detail, the hardware and operating system have just as much effect as the choice of whether to use a source port or not. Vanilla Doom's mouse behavior depends on the mouse driver you use, for example. If you really want to be that pedantic then you should play on hardware from the '90s, operating systems and drivers from the '90s, and with a '90s keyboard and mouse. It's pretty clear nobody wants to do that, though.

06-19-12 11:04 #

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