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Linguica

Posts: 3700
Registered: 05-00

It's been four long years in the making, but Chris Lutz finally sent word that the long-awaited project Caverns of Darkness has been released. With no less than 12 ultra-detailed maps filled to the brim with eyecandy and gameplay, this is one Doom 2 partial conversion that you do not want to miss.

Originally started by since-departed team leader G.B. Jackson, Caverns of Darkness features ten standard and two secret levels which push the Doom engine to the limits of its capabilities. Architecture, texturing, special effects, lighting -- everything in Caverns of Darkness is detailed to a level seldom seen before.

Besides Chris Lutz, who contributed 9 levels to the WAD, other members of the team include "Nokturnus," who made two levels for the project; Emil Brundage, with one level; Justus Johnson, who composed original music; and Joel Murdoch, who created a custom engine specifically for the project. That's right, besides twelve massive levels to play, the partial conversion also utilizes a brand-new engine, based off the Eternity codebase.

"I'm not one for marketing," said Chris Lutz, "but I must say that I think Caverns of Darkness
is really damn cool. There really is a massive amount of gameplay crammed
into these 12 levels, not to mention some awesome looking architecture and
pretty freaky surprises. Joel's work on the engine was amazing, too -- as a
level designer, I was able to reap tremendous benefits from Joel's
additions.

"But...well, everyone knows that this project took 4+ years to finish, which
begs the question: 'Was it worth the wait?' Granted, the Crew ran into the
hurdles that most teams do -- our leader had to quit the project, level
designers vanished, hard-drives failed, etc. -- but even so, four years is a
L-O-N-G time. Anyway, I don't suppose *I* am in any position to judge --
that's why I hope to hear from those few or many who do play through CoD.

"Regardless: four years after it's conception, Caverns of Darkness has been
released. And we hope it's fun as all Hell."

Has your appetite been whetted yet? Well, if so, head over to one of the following URLS:

http://archives.3dgamers.com/pub/idgames/newstuff/cc-cod.zip
ftp://despayre.org/pub/games/doom/wads/cc-cod.zip
ftp://3darchives.in-span.net/pub/idgames/newstuff/ (not yet mirrored, should be soon)

What, are you still here? Go get playing.

04-25-02 20:04 #

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Zaldron
Sex Cauldron

Posts: 9917
Registered: 08-00

Hooray. Nice pic.

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04-25-02 20:48 #

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JoelMurdoch
Should know better by now

Posts: 656
Registered: 02-02

The engine's based on Eternity.

04-25-02 20:56 #

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Zaldron
Sex Cauldron

Posts: 9917
Registered: 08-00

And we're supposed to stand against this project? Oh my...

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04-25-02 21:14 #

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
Registered: 05-00

<sarcasm>Hooray for DOS</sarcasm>

04-25-02 21:31 #

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Erik
Forum Staple

Posts: 2088
Registered: 10-01

played to map3 so far, really detailed architecture and seems to lack at least some of the P:AR switch crazyness.

04-25-02 21:44 #

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kristus
Megablast!

Posts: 10272
Registered: 07-00

Eternity is deh king.

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04-25-02 21:45 #

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
Registered: 05-00

Ebola said:
Eternity is deh king.

If it ever gets officially working/released for windows, maybe.

04-25-02 21:57 #

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Lutz
Junior Member

Posts: 211
Registered: 12-00

Erik said:
played to map3 so far, really detailed architecture and seems to lack at least some of the P:AR switch crazyness.

Yes, the levels in CoD are a lot more linear than those of P:AR. Of course, CoD also takes place (mostly) in older underground caverns/structures, so there is less "technology" (and hence fewer swtiches) to worry about.

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04-25-02 22:07 #

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Aardappel
Warming Up

Posts: 21
Registered: 05-00

ok, flame me if you want, but is it possible to play this using a more bearable port, like jdoom or legacy, or failing that, zdoom?

what features are in this engine that are not in any of the above? or is cod.exe just a "dongle" devised by the "real doomers don't need mlook" jihad?

04-25-02 22:49 #

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JoelMurdoch
Should know better by now

Posts: 656
Registered: 02-02

OK Aardappel, I'll flame you...

Check your facts before slamming us.

1. There's a lot of custom stuff in the project which required it's own port. They're subtle things you won't notice at first, but they're there.
2. Doom Legacy blows. Runs slower than Unreal on my machine.
3. JDoom rules the OpenGL Doom world but doesn't support Boom stuff (to my knowledge). COD makes extensive use of Boom effects.
4. ZDoom? Ahahahahahaha!!!!
5. Eternity HAS mlook.
6. Eternity has a Windows version in the works and I'll put out a Windows version when it's done (if I can find someone to compile it for me). Ask first next time eh?
7. ZDoom, JDoom, Doom Legacy and the Windows version of Eternity all require MS Visual C++, a product which will set me back about 500 bucks, not something I can spare for a hobby.

However, Eternity's DOS and Windows versions use the same codebase, so once the Windows version is working I can port it myself and just get James, Julian or SoM to compile it for me if they don't mind.

How was that? :P

04-25-02 23:54 #

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Zaldron
Sex Cauldron

Posts: 9917
Registered: 08-00

You go girl ;)

We don't need the same kind of assumptions for Mill...

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04-26-02 00:09 #

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
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1. There's a lot of custom stuff in the project which required it's own port. They're subtle things you won't notice at first, but they're there.

examples?

2. Doom Legacy blows. Runs slower than Unreal on my machine.

yep.

3. JDoom rules the OpenGL Doom world but doesn't support Boom stuff (to my knowledge). {COD makes extensive use of Boom effects.}

Unfortunately, yes.

4. ZDoom? Ahahahahahaha!!!!

Boom/MBF, DOS? Ahahahahahaha!!!!

5. Eternity HAS mlook.
6. Eternity has a Windows version in the works and I'll put out a Windows version when it's done (if I can find someone to compile it for me). Ask first next time eh?

Nothing to add here.

7. ZDoom, JDoom, Doom Legacy and the Windows version of Eternity all require MS Visual C++, a product which will set me back about 500 bucks, not something I can spare for a hobby.

Last time I checked ZDoom compiled with MingW32.

However, Eternity's DOS and Windows versions use the same codebase, so once the Windows version is working I can port it myself and just get James, Julian or SoM to compile it for me if they don't mind.

Let's hope SoM will ever get it completely working.

I'd really like to play CoD, but as long as it's for DOS only there's no change for me (except installing win98... yeah, suuuuure)

04-26-02 00:11 #

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L�t
YA-HA

Posts: 12323
Registered: 05-00

Heh, Joel, save your posts for when Millennium's released :P

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Technology sucks.

04-26-02 00:11 #

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L�t
YA-HA

Posts: 12323
Registered: 05-00

Tarin said:
Boom/MBF, DOS? Ahahahahahaha!!!!

Yeah, Boom/MBF, you know, where the game actually plays like it should?

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Technology sucks.

04-26-02 00:13 #

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
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L�t said:
Yeah, Boom/MBF, you know, where the game actually plays like it should?

I've got fun when I play ZDoom. So it's the way it should play (for me).

04-26-02 00:22 #

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Zaldron
Sex Cauldron

Posts: 9917
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Tarin said:

I've got fun when I play ZDoom. So it's the way it should play (for me).

Agreed. Altough of course I don't feel any real differences between both gameplay styles. The core remains the same.

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04-26-02 00:29 #

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Erik
Forum Staple

Posts: 2088
Registered: 10-01

Heh, the difference between Zdoom and MBF is huge.. it's almost like 2 different games... both are good though as long as the maps are built to work with the engine. Using Zdoom for Vanilla Doom/MBF/whatever maps just blows.

04-26-02 00:56 #

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JoelMurdoch
Should know better by now

Posts: 656
Registered: 02-02

Come on, how many betas have there been of the latest ZDoom? 33? Ridiculous. Hardly the kind of the thing that makes you want to use the engine as a base for a custom port.

04-26-02 01:15 #

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Aardappel
Warming Up

Posts: 21
Registered: 05-00

I should "check my facts".. and the facts are... that you peronally think that legacy, zdoom etc suck? nice arguing.

You know what really sucks? people that think they should decide for me in my best interest that I need to use what they think is better. I *like* legacy, and jdoom etc. You like dos ports. I have no wish to stop you from using them, please return the favour?

It's really cool a windows port is in the works, but that that STILL doesn't mean I'd want to use it.

The "mlook" was just a typical example.

So, are you you gonna tell us which new features absolutely required the new source port? They must be quite substantial for you to want to alienate such a large chunk of your potential audience.

04-26-02 01:24 #

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Linguica

Posts: 3700
Registered: 05-00

Hooray, a flamewar.

04-26-02 01:45 #

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
Registered: 05-00

Linguica said:
Hooray, a flamewar.

Yes, the one that comes up every couple months :P

04-26-02 02:17 #

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Lutz
Junior Member

Posts: 211
Registered: 12-00

Dammit, folks -- quit bitching. If you don't like our engine, well, I'm sorry (really); I think CoD is cool and wish that all could have the opportunity to enjoy it. However, CoD is also OURS -- we built it the way we wanted to build it, and we built it on an engine that runs in DOS. You want to complain about that? -- Fine. I don't really care. As I said before: sorry. But tough.

As to things we (er, Joel, really) added: new triggers, new sector types, new enemies, a new weapon; we also changed the level progression order and all of the intermission texts. Now:
1) Could one do all this with the current ZDoom engine? --Sure.
2) Could we have done it four years ago? --Nope; there was no ZDoom when we started.
3) Do I (we) know exactly how? --Nope.
4) Could we have found out? --Sure.
5) Would it have been worth it? --Nope. We have our own engine.

Joel is really the engine guy and I hate speaking for him, but here are the reasons (I think) that governed why we built our own engine, and why it runs in DOS:
- CoD started out using the BOOM engine, since that was the only real source part 4 years ago.
- As such, all the level designers were much more familiar with BOOM (and subsequently, MBF).
- Nokturnus STILL can't even get ZDoom to run on his machine.
- Joel knows it well, and he is our engine guy.
- IT WORKS WELL.

Look, guys -- if you can and want to play it, do so. If you can't or don't want to, sorry. But either way...just let it go.

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04-26-02 02:34 #

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JoelMurdoch
Should know better by now

Posts: 656
Registered: 02-02

As Chris said, there's lots of stuff in their that needed custom coding. There is no port currently available capable of doing everything without coding. Even if there was, we'd be getting flamed by people who didn't like/couldn't run that port. We're really in a lose/lose situation.

To break down what I said to make it even more painfully boring (but hopefully clearer)

- Doom Legacy supports Boom but has proven itself unreliable, slow and I'd need to buy VC++ to work with it.
- JDoom is outstanding, but lacks Boom support and again needs VC++
- ZDoom supports Boom, but with the stories I've heard (and my own experience) as to it's reliability and the 33 betas of the recent version don't exactly inspire confidence. I had no clue it worked with that free Windows compiler, but I still wouldn't want to use it.
- MBF is a solid and reliable engine but it doesn't compile on the latest DJGPP and Allegro, and since my copy of DJGPP/Allegro that does compile it has a bizarre problem resulting in unreliable executables so that was out.

Eternity is overall the most reliable port available today. When WinEternity's ready, I'll make a Windows version of the engine. Not much I can do till then.

------
You know what really sucks? people that think they should decide for me in my best interest that I need to use what they think is better. I *like* legacy, and jdoom etc. You like dos ports. I have no wish to stop you from using them, please return the favour?

It's really cool a windows port is in the works, but that that STILL doesn't mean I'd want to use it.
------

Calm the hell down. We're not trying to force anything onto anyone. It was a decision of necessity. If we'd gone with JDoom we'd be getting flamed by people without 3D cards. If we used Legacy we'd be getting flamed by the people for whom that thing runs about as fast as drying paint (I'd be flamming myself). If your logic was followed then we'd have had to make it for vanilla Doom, and with a guy like Chris doing your levels that's impossible. I made clear my reasons for not chosing ZDoom, JDoom and Legacy. I don't know what else to say.
-----
They must be quite substantial for you to want to alienate such a large chunk of your potential audience.
-----

Again, your logic makes no sense. No single port works for everyone in terms of performance or likeability. Even if we'd just used one port with no modifications we'd still be getting messages like this.

As Chris said, if you can do so, please play the game enjoy. If you can't, we're sorry but that's how it is.

04-26-02 03:18 #

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Linguica

Posts: 3700
Registered: 05-00

Any port based off Boom doesn't have any sound on my machine so I can't really play it. I hope a Windows port of the engine is released soon.

04-26-02 03:26 #

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fodders
OWNS YOU

Posts: 5821
Registered: 05-00

DOS? What is this DOS thing of which you speak?

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Fod's page Son's place De Man's place
You are my opponent, but not my enemy, for your resistance gives me strength. Your will gives me courage. Your spirit ennobles me. And, although I aim to defeat you, should I succeed, I will not humiliate you, instead I will honour you..For without you, I am a lesser man.

04-26-02 04:27 #

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Naked Snake
HAHA I AM A FAG AND I CAN'T CHANGE THIS TITLE ANYMORE

Posts: 11567
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I have XP, so I can't use DOS...

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D O O M W O R L D All your favorite ports and map editors
Do oM D M !!
3057 reasons to keep o n dooming

04-26-02 04:29 #

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Zaldron
Sex Cauldron

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Good things come to those who wait. Once WinEternity is done there should be no problems running ANYTHING AT ALL.

It's just the painful moving from DOS to Win platforms inspired by Microsoft's evolution of their OSes.

Now I know someone will jump out and question the "evolution" part in my sentence but I don't really care. With XP I can't play COD, true, but I haven't had a real software problem with my comp for like 6 months.

I'll wait for Joel's win ports of both COD and Millennium and enjoy a stable OS AND great megawads...

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04-26-02 05:15 #

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Hellbent
Forum Bellend

Posts: 4376
Registered: 06-00

hmm... XP won't do. /me cancels download. :(

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What if software archaeologists unearthed levels from the original DooM 1 that had somehow been lost and never made it into the original release of DooM? Project Doom the way id did explores what those levels might look like.

04-26-02 06:47 #