Demon
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Special Interest > Eternity > Revised list of gripes
 
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:36. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Hodapp87
Warming Up


Posts: 22
Registered: 07-02


The revised gripes I have about Eternity engine:
(a) The thing with the crosshair and not aiming right and all that...
(b) Not being able to select an episode when add-ons are used with the Ultimate DOOM.
(c) The menu is very messed-up with some WADs. WADs like HACX work just fine with the menu... why is it so FUBAR with HR2?
(d) The 'Features' menu item sticks out in a nasty way in WADs that change menu graphics.
(e) In the Options menu, you can't see which item is selected when some WADs that change fonts are loaded (such as HACX or Hell Revealed 2).

When I look at some of these problems...well, most of these problems... OkAy, ALL of these problems... they're in the SMMU engine as well.


What I see as the simplest solution:
(a) As I probably have said before and everyone has read, adjust the crosshair slightly according to how far up\down you aim.
(b) As you have it now, it is very handy to have the game start on any levels that were changed automatically.
Could you simply enable the episode selection menu regardless of if a PWAD is loaded or not? If only a single level is replaced, add on option to start there too?
(c) I don't know, is it even your fault that HR2's menu doesn't work right?
(d) Put the 'Features' item elsewhere... I just don't know a suitable 'elsewhere' except the Options menu, but they're Features, not Options! Bleah.
(e) Use some kind of cursor to the side instead, or a font that WADs can't modify.


Junk I want to see:
(1) An option to specify saved game directory, like -savedir in BOOM?
(2) High(er) resolution, even if letterboxed. It doesn't look too disgusting to me considering the wrong aspect ratio.
Could you use the extra (ypixels/12) pixels on the top and bottom for stuff like the status bar, moved down, and a mini-console? Rotating automap? Timer? Various level stats? FPS meter? Any random gadget I can conceive?
You've got exactly 1/6th of the screen area unused if you letterbox a 4:3 resolution - you might as well use the unused space.
(3) Customisable crosshairs?
(4) Some light antialiasing at the edges of walls and flats. There's no point in antialiasing the entire view when the only things that look really jagged are the edges of things...
(5) Height checking, 3D floors, or flattened sprites? Some are a bit useless, but some might be good. Many engines have height checking, some have 3D floors but mostly incompatible variants of it, and I don't know any with flattened sprites. And I suppose the only use I can think of for flattened sprites is to simulate 3D floors. Can't you already simulate a lot of the simpler functions of 3D floors, such as spiral staircases, even if not totally solid, or the bridge on the start map that leads to nightmare mode? Whatever... the only engine with room-over-room that doesn't crash on my box is rorDOOM, based on BOOM and now abandoned, but I think with source out. I guess a lot of engines with 3D floors have source out - i.e. Vavoom, DOSDoom, maybe EDGE, maybe Legacy. Wow, I guess I'll shut up now.
(6) A compatible interface among _all_ the engines besides the DOOM\BOOM interface, though World Peace is slightly more likely to happen. Whatever, Eternity supports BOOM, SMMU, MBF, and some ZDoom stuff, which is good enough for me. I guess what I meant was the elimination of requiring a certain engine for a certain WAD, aside from maybe BOOM.


Junk I see as pointless:
(1) DDF support... sorry Railgunner... leave that to EDGE
(2) Support for MD2 models... it's just not DOOMish enough.
(3) Other ridiculous visual and graphical stuff. That's what Vavoom and JDoom are for, or any engines that have 'GL' in their name. Also, I don't believe most levels were designed mith a lot of those features in mind.


Because I could only think of 5 gripes about the engine, I'll have to make up for it with stupid questions:
-What objectives or focuses did you have in mind with the Eternity engine?
-What is currently in plan for the future, besides ExtraData, EDF, and whatever?
-What is this 'polyobjects' thing mentioned as a long term goal?
-Considering how long it has been available, why have I only recently heard about it or seen it on DoomWorld's source port page?
-What are some examples of the use of fragglescript?
-What are some potential uses of ExtraData and EDF? Well I suppose you already said EDF was for adding items...

Old Post 08-03-02 04:34 #
Hodapp87 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
mmnpsrsoskl
Spasmolytic


Posts: 1787
Registered: 06-01



Hodapp87 said:
Not being able to select an episode when add-ons are used with the Ultimate DOOM.

I can.


You've got exactly 1/6th of the screen area unused if you letterbox a 4:3 resolution

I worked out 1/4 unused

4:3=16:12
16:9
16:12

9/12 = 3/4 = Size of letterbox in pan and scan (ugly ugly ugly) format.

__________________
You know, I never really updated this thing right here, so I thought i'd better put something in here, such as this annoying and stupid sentence. Yeehaw.

Old Post 08-03-02 10:05 #
mmnpsrsoskl is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Hodapp87
Warming Up


Posts: 22
Registered: 07-02


(a) If I have The Ultimate DOOM loaded, but nothing else, I can select an episode. If I have any add-on loaded with it, levels or otherwise, the menu to select an episode never appears - it just starts at E1M1 or the first level that has been replaced. I believe Quasar said this was a known problem and he would have it fixed in the next release, so I don't know we're doing differently.

(b)
"I worked out 1/4 unused
4:3=16:12
16:9
16:12
9/12 = 3/4 = Size of letterbox in pan and scan (ugly ugly ugly) format."
I don't think everything is toooooooooooo messed-up. I have looked in SMMU with letterboxed 640x480 and it is visibly somewhat distorted, but everything looks okay. Something like, say, 360x480 might have a few problems though.

Where did you get 16:9?

Eternity runs in 320x200 and 640x400, correct?
320x200 or 640x400 = 32:20 = 16:10, not 16:9.
4:3 (320x240, 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, etc.) = 16:12.
(16/12)/(16/10) = .833_ = 5/6 = 1/6 unused.

For another example, suppose you letterbox 640x480 to 640x400. That leaves 80 horizontal lines unused. 80/480 = 1/6.
Or suppose you letterbox 800x600 to a 16:10 resolution of 800x500. That leaves 100 horizontal lines unused. 100/600 = 1/6.
Or suppose you... yeah you get the point. It obviously won't work with 1280x1024 though (5:4).

Okay? I'm pretty sure I'm correct.
I don't know where you got 16:9 because it does not run in 320x180 or 640x360.

Old Post 08-04-02 03:24 #
Hodapp87 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
esayeek
Member


Posts: 348
Registered: 07-02



Hodapp87 said:
The revised gripes I have about Eternity engine:
(a) The thing with the crosshair and not aiming right and all that...
(b) Not being able to select an episode when add-ons are used with the Ultimate DOOM.
(c) The menu is very messed-up with some WADs. WADs like HACX work just fine with the menu... why is it so FUBAR with HR2?
(d) The 'Features' menu item sticks out in a nasty way in WADs that change menu graphics.
(e) In the Options menu, you can't see which item is selected when some WADs that change fonts are loaded (such as HACX or Hell Revealed 2).

When I look at some of these problems...well, most of these problems... OkAy, ALL of these problems... they're in the SMMU engine as well.


What I see as the simplest solution:
(a) As I probably have said before and everyone has read, adjust the crosshair slightly according to how far up\down you aim.
(b) As you have it now, it is very handy to have the game start on any levels that were changed automatically.
Could you simply enable the episode selection menu regardless of if a PWAD is loaded or not? If only a single level is replaced, add on option to start there too?
(c) I don't know, is it even your fault that HR2's menu doesn't work right?
(d) Put the 'Features' item elsewhere... I just don't know a suitable 'elsewhere' except the Options menu, but they're Features, not Options! Bleah.
(e) Use some kind of cursor to the side instead, or a font that WADs can't modify.


Junk I want to see:
(1) An option to specify saved game directory, like -savedir in BOOM?
(2) High(er) resolution, even if letterboxed. It doesn't look too disgusting to me considering the wrong aspect ratio.
Could you use the extra (ypixels/12) pixels on the top and bottom for stuff like the status bar, moved down, and a mini-console? Rotating automap? Timer? Various level stats? FPS meter? Any random gadget I can conceive?
You've got exactly 1/6th of the screen area unused if you letterbox a 4:3 resolution - you might as well use the unused space.
(3) Customisable crosshairs?
(4) Some light antialiasing at the edges of walls and flats. There's no point in antialiasing the entire view when the only things that look really jagged are the edges of things...
(5) Height checking, 3D floors, or flattened sprites? Some are a bit useless, but some might be good. Many engines have height checking, some have 3D floors but mostly incompatible variants of it, and I don't know any with flattened sprites. And I suppose the only use I can think of for flattened sprites is to simulate 3D floors. Can't you already simulate a lot of the simpler functions of 3D floors, such as spiral staircases, even if not totally solid, or the bridge on the start map that leads to nightmare mode? Whatever... the only engine with room-over-room that doesn't crash on my box is rorDOOM, based on BOOM and now abandoned, but I think with source out. I guess a lot of engines with 3D floors have source out - i.e. Vavoom, DOSDoom, maybe EDGE, maybe Legacy. Wow, I guess I'll shut up now.
(6) A compatible interface among _all_ the engines besides the DOOM\BOOM interface, though World Peace is slightly more likely to happen. Whatever, Eternity supports BOOM, SMMU, MBF, and some ZDoom stuff, which is good enough for me. I guess what I meant was the elimination of requiring a certain engine for a certain WAD, aside from maybe BOOM.


Junk I see as pointless:
(1) DDF support... sorry Railgunner... leave that to EDGE
(2) Support for MD2 models... it's just not DOOMish enough.
(3) Other ridiculous visual and graphical stuff. That's what Vavoom and JDoom are for, or any engines that have 'GL' in their name. Also, I don't believe most levels were designed mith a lot of those features in mind.


Because I could only think of 5 gripes about the engine, I'll have to make up for it with stupid questions:
-What objectives or focuses did you have in mind with the Eternity engine?
-What is currently in plan for the future, besides ExtraData, EDF, and whatever?
-What is this 'polyobjects' thing mentioned as a long term goal?
-Considering how long it has been available, why have I only recently heard about it or seen it on DoomWorld's source port page?
-What are some examples of the use of fragglescript?
-What are some potential uses of ExtraData and EDF? Well I suppose you already said EDF was for adding items...



(a) someone needs to fix sloppy code somewhere
(b) has to do with that "start map" used in doom2 mode and the associated code. should be easy to fix
(c) WADs made assumptions about menu layout that cannot be emulated simply because there are more menu items than before
(d) same as c
(e) same as d

(1) good idea
(2) was it dosdoom? yeah i think it was, or maybe legacy, implemented generalized drawing code that scales everything properly for any aspect ratio resolution. you could load it in 320x100 as an example and other than the obvious blockyness, there would be nothing squished or stretched or anything.
(3) ehhh, dont put it at the top of the list
(4) dood, this is a 10 year old software renderer here. go and buy quake3 or something.
(5) my concern on this relates to 6
(6) many source port makers implemented many features with little foresight or regard for others, often times very little common sense as well. this makes world peace a pita

Old Post 08-04-02 03:39 #
esayeek is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Hodapp87
Warming Up


Posts: 22
Registered: 07-02



esayeek said:


(a) someone needs to fix sloppy code somewhere
(b) has to do with that "start map" used in doom2 mode and the associated code. should be easy to fix
(c) WADs made assumptions about menu layout that cannot be emulated simply because there are more menu items than before
(d) same as c
(e) same as d

(1) good idea
(2) was it dosdoom? yeah i think it was, or maybe legacy, implemented generalized drawing code that scales everything properly for any aspect ratio resolution. you could load it in 320x100 as an example and other than the obvious blockyness, there would be nothing squished or stretched or anything.
(3) ehhh, dont put it at the top of the list
(4) dood, this is a 10 year old software renderer here. go and buy quake3 or something.
(5) my concern on this relates to 6
(6) many source port makers implemented many features with little foresight or regard for others, often times very little common sense as well. this makes world peace a pita




(c) HACX, Twice Risen, AV, and a number of other WADs that change the menu do perfectly well with it, despite the Features item sticking out... what did HR2 do differently?
(e) Oh well, it just makes more sense to use a cursor on the side instead...

(2) Letterboxed resolution is okay for me at the moment. I suppose generalized drawing code might need a fix eventually...
(3) Whatever...
(4) I don't think it would be too hard or slow to lightly antialias the edges of walls and floors... I'm not talking about antialiasing all the graphics.
(5,6) Maybe this will all be easier once world peace has been established.

Old Post 08-04-02 04:10 #
Hodapp87 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
NiGHTMARE
Forum Legend


Posts: 4997
Registered: 05-00



(c) HACX, Twice Risen, AV, and a number of other WADs that change the menu do perfectly well with it, despite the Features item sticking out... what did HR2 do differently?


For some reason HR2 replaces M_NGAME, M_QUIT, M_OPTION, etc with blank graphics and puts all the menu options in M_DOOM.

Oh, and I think you'll find the AV menu graphics don't work properly, because AV does the exact same thing as HR2 :)

__________________
RTC-3057: The future of DOOM.
3057 reasons to keep dooming.

Paradox: The gateways have re-opened. But this time it isn't hellspawn who've come through...

Old Post 08-04-02 21:55 #
NiGHTMARE is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
mmnpsrsoskl
Spasmolytic


Posts: 1787
Registered: 06-01


Hodapp87, I thought when you said "letterbox in a 4:3 aspect", I thought you were refering to a standard TV format...

16:9 Widescreen, 4:3 Pan And Scan.....

Sorry about the mixup. And I see your point, so yeah :P

__________________
You know, I never really updated this thing right here, so I thought i'd better put something in here, such as this annoying and stupid sentence. Yeehaw.

Old Post 08-05-02 13:20 #
mmnpsrsoskl is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7287
Registered: 07-00



Hodapp87 said:
When I look at some of these problems...well, most of these problems... OkAy, ALL of these problems... they're in the SMMU engine as well.

Ooops

Old Post 08-05-02 19:46 #
fraggle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
esayeek
Member


Posts: 348
Registered: 07-02


i decided to look at the y-shearing.
1. the game code uses TANGENTS. DUMB IDEA.
2. the render code expects these tangents tho, so shouldnt cause a problem with crosshair alignment, but:
3. no-one decided to do the math connecting the aim code with the rendering code. instead i see a #define that has been commented out a few times; apparently someone hopes to trial-and-error it until they get it right. i would try to fix it but: mlook should move the player up and down a constant _angle_ for mouse displacement, not a constant _tangent_. even tho you have to convert it to a tangent for the y shearing code (one atan call per frame, oh noes), and even if you have to cap the maximun angle of movement quite a bit more than you have to in real 3d engines because of the distortions of yshearing. tangental aiming doesnt feel natural, simple as that. 99% of people playing modern 3d shooters aim with a mouse that is setup to displace you the exact same angle sideways as up and down. take the hint.

this is all based upon
code:
// public beta -- 3.29 public beta 4

btw

Last edited by esayeek on 08-06-02 at 06:24

Old Post 08-05-02 20:14 #
esayeek is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Hodapp87
Warming Up


Posts: 22
Registered: 07-02


"Oh, and I think you'll find the AV menu graphics don't work properly, because AV does the exact same thing as HR2 :)"
AV works fine for me...?




Somehow, I forgot these:

* It gets a bit annoying to have the name of your saved game cleared when you save it... Could you change that?
* Also, could you put some information near each saved game, such as
what level and what WAD, and maybe what time you saved it at (whether
how much time elapsed or the time of day)? If you have a lot of saved games, this can be very useful.
[that reminds me, what was that game that had reduced screenshots that
appeared at whatever saved game the cursor was on? Was that ROTT? DN3D? Descent?]

* Add in options for -left and -right once the multiplayer thing is up
and running... as in the feature DOOM used to have and that Legacy has, though my PC doesn't like Legacy... PLEASE?!?!?!?!

* Is support for 16-bit and 24-bit color in the works anywhere? Just
wondering... might that be easier than palettes, and allow better graphics? And THEN we can brag to ZDoom people that we have beautiful
illustrious sparkly high color while they're stuck with lousy crappy 8-bit?

* What about support for 2 mice? Seems like it would be harder under Windoze, but Legacy does it fairly well with both DOS and Windows. My main idea was one mouse for aiming all around the screen, turning, firing, and moving forward (and backward if you have 3 buttons), with the other mouse for strafing and moving with analog control, which is just so nice for precision.

* What about an option for arcade mode? Sephiroth (I think that's how it's spelled) professed his want for a DOOM-only arcade machine. Maybe this will satisfy him. That is part of why I want the -left and -right options. Have the 2 trackballs and a few keys for firing and changing weapons, as well as several lives in place of the ability to save games (award points for beating levels according to how high it is, award something based on an enemy's hitpoints when you kill them, and dish out lives every XX points), and maybe a time limit. That would be simple enough for most people... and cheap.


* LINUX SUPPORT!
<ducks as someone throws a copy of the source code at him>

Old Post 08-07-02 17:05 #
Hodapp87 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
NiGHTMARE
Forum Legend


Posts: 4997
Registered: 05-00



"Oh, and I think you'll find the AV menu graphics don't work properly, because AV does the exact same thing as HR2 :)"
AV works fine for me...?

I'm not sure what port you're using, but I just quickly checked AV in Boom, Eternity, ZDoom and Legacy and the menu is messed up in all of them.

In Boom, it LOOKS fine, but pressing options goes to load, load goes to save, and save goes to options. In all the others, the new port specific options are displayed on top of other options.

__________________
RTC-3057: The future of DOOM.
3057 reasons to keep dooming.

Paradox: The gateways have re-opened. But this time it isn't hellspawn who've come through...

Old Post 08-07-02 17:19 #
NiGHTMARE is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Quasar
Moderator


Posts: 5757
Registered: 08-00


esayeek:

1. I didn't write the y-shearing code, fraggle adapted it from another port for SMMU.

2. I don't get paid for doing this, take the hint? Be polite or don't bother asking for fixes, especially ones as ultimately trivial, IMNSHO, as this. It makes me not want to even look at it when people act like I'm obligated to do so. You should feel fortunate enough that Eternity has mlook at all.

Old Post 08-08-02 20:16 #
Quasar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
esayeek
Member


Posts: 348
Registered: 07-02


i don't play eternity, i really don't care that much whether it has mlook or not

Old Post 08-08-02 21:27 #
esayeek is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Quasar
Moderator


Posts: 5757
Registered: 08-00


Then you have little right to gripe about it :)

Old Post 08-08-02 22:18 #
Quasar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Woolie Wool
Member


Posts: 627
Registered: 08-02


1. They don't have a WAD up for download containing what has been done with the actual TC so far.

Old Post 08-09-02 19:07 #
Woolie Wool is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
mmnpsrsoskl
Spasmolytic


Posts: 1787
Registered: 06-01



Woolie Wool said:
1. They don't have a WAD up for download containing what has been done with the actual TC so far.
And? Who cares? As long they are still working on it, all is good.

__________________
You know, I never really updated this thing right here, so I thought i'd better put something in here, such as this annoying and stupid sentence. Yeehaw.

Old Post 08-10-02 10:36 #
mmnpsrsoskl is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:36. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
 
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Special Interest > Eternity > Revised list of gripes

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Message Board Statistics