Paradoxes and long posts to try to answer them

I hate math. Math should be left to computers and robots to do.

LOL at mystic. You're definitely a troll.

Anyway, I just found out that astrology is satanic. :D

I've been thinking for almost half an hour and I still can't figure out the answer to the question, "WHAT IN THE HELL IS A FOUR-DIMENSIONAL SPHERE!?"!

mystic said:

Another reason some folks refuse to accept the truth about the universe being infinite is because it makes us (humans) absolutely insignificant, only really important to ourselves. Yup, we are all of us insignificant nothings in a endless, constantly changing universe and no amount of fancy maths is ever going to change that fact.

Im laughing my ass of at anyone asking me to prove the universe is infinite. I dont need to, it is, I accept it as such and Im learning to live with my godless insignificance.

Scientists reckon there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand in all of Earth's beaches, deserts, etc. Now, if that doesn't make us absolutely insignificant, then I don't know what does.

Spray said:

I've been thinking for almost half an hour and I still can't figure out the answer to the question, "WHAT IN THE HELL IS A FOUR-DIMENSIONAL SPHERE!?"!

Don't worry, you're not alone. Not even the most gifted physicists and mathematicians in the world can handle four-dimensional shapes intuitively.

The four-dimensional sphere is pretty simple though: it's a set of infinitely many points, all located on an equal distance from a given centerpoint. Just like a 2D circle or a 3D sphere.

If you were to see a four-dimensional sphere in 3D, it'd look exactly like a 3D sphere. In the same way that a 3D sphere looks like a 2D circle when rendered onto a 2D surface.

Movement of a four-dimensional sphere in the 3-dimensional world is represented by a 3D sphere which expands and contracts in proportions.

Zoorado said:

Movement of a four-dimensional sphere in the 3-dimensional world is represented by a 3D sphere which expands and contracts in proportions.

Yeah. And again, that property scales to the 3D/2D relation as well.

Other 4D objects are more complex though. For example, the Tesseract.

the_Danarchist said:

I hate math. Math should be left to computers and robots to do.

There is much more to mathematics than arithmetic. It would be nice to have manipulation of equations automated as far as possible though (maybe it is now; I'm a bit out of touch).

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who's brain exploded after trying to figure out a 4-D sphere. :)

Tesseracts rule.

And I havent been paying much attention to the thread, but someone said something about weather the universe was infinite or not. From what I've heard, it is finite, and I believe that is the general consensus among scintists these days. You see, since the big bang, the universe has been expanding so that means it actualy has a size. I mean, technicaly you could say it IS infinite because if you started at one end and tried to go to the other, it would take forever to get there because it just keeps getting bigger. But at any given time, it occupies a set amount of volume.

Actulaly, some think the universe may one day turn around and shrink on us. Then, since it would ultimately become extremely dense, the pressure would be so much that it would explode again. The question would be, how many such cycles have come before?

Fredrik, that site is going on my favorites right now! :)

Back on the space subject, I believe that the universe is infinite, because from every view point, there is an infinite possibility that there will be a star, etc. So if I said that there are stars from every view point, then they must be trillions of light-years away, possibly. That is why the sky is black. Of course, then there is an infinite possibility that there aren't stars there. But we see filled-up space, not empty space (well not truly), so we will stay with the YES idea. The reason our sky isn't lit up at night from the infinite number of stars, is because some of them are in fact trillions of light years away, so we can't see them because their light hasn't reached us yet. So I think it is infinite (of course, there is a point that there is no matter, but it's still the universe, right?)

And if the universe is FINITE, then where are heaven? Hell? Are they somewhere in the fourth dimension? Then where? And what is beyond the FINITE universe, if it is in fact FINITE? Nothing? But then what is there separating them?

If I'm wrong in my standpoints, feel free to blame Mr. Fruitcake, my science teacher. :D

And the_Danarchist, there is no way to know. Except to travel to the center of the univers (where is that?) and then go back in time and find out.

PS Post 100 w00t! XD

deldelda said:

The reason our sky isn't lit up at night from the infinite number of stars, is because some of them are in fact trillions of light years away, so we can't see them because their light hasn't reached us yet. So I think it is infinite (of course, there is a point that there is no matter, but it's still the universe, right?)

But mystic asserts that the Universe never had a beginning or start and has existed for an infinite amount of time into the past. So the sky should be white.

Danarchist said:

You see, since the big bang, the universe has been expanding so that means it actualy has a size. I mean, technicaly you could say it IS infinite because if you started at one end and tried to go to the other, it would take forever to get there because it just keeps getting bigger. But at any given time, it occupies a set amount of volume.

If you read my earlier post I explained that a finite Universe doesnt need an "edge".

Actulaly, some think the universe may one day turn around and shrink on us. Then, since it would ultimately become extremely dense, the pressure would be so much that it would explode again. The question would be, how many such cycles have come before?

This is called the "Big Crunch" theory. The big bang and big crunch would be singularities, with "before" the big bang and "after" the big crunch having no meaning, so talk of "cycles" has no meaning. I dont think "pressure" really has any meaning at that scale, either.

OMFG. Someone actually agrees with me. :)

Hey Deldelda, to me heaven and hell are even sillier concepts than the big bang, likewise god and satan (so FUCK YOU, the plonker that said astrology is satanic).

Anyway, its nice to know a fellow free thinker, dont blame the others for their blinkered viewpoint, the education system has disciplined their minds making original or free thought difficult. Also their ego gets in the way, some obviously have a need to show the world that they understand complex mathematics so we will marvel at their cleverness. A shame academic cleverness doesnt come with equal amounts of actual common sense or wisdom


FRAGGLE: I never said anything about the sky being white, please dont put stupid words in my mouth.

If this 'finite' universe you beleive in doesnt have an outer edge then it is infinite, if you cant see that you are not half as clever as you sometimes seem to be.

Big Crunch /Big bang = bullshit created by disciplined minds that cant comprehend anything that has no start point. It will be even funnier if whoever believes in that stuff also believes in God and eternal heaven.

Hey hey hey hey! Be nice now!

I wasn't the "plonker" that said thet astrology is satanic, it was Zoorado. And I don't like having my religion put down like that. I think everyone has a right to believe in what they believe in.

If this 'finite' universe you beleive in doesnt have an outer edge then it is infinite, if you cant see that you are not half as clever as you sometimes seem to be.

I agree.

fraggle said:

If you read my earlier post I explained that a finite Universe doesnt need an "edge".

Ah...like I said, I wasnt really paying attention to this thread. :)

This is called the "Big Crunch" theory. The big bang and big crunch would be singularities, with "before" the big bang and "after" the big crunch having no meaning, so talk of "cycles" has no meaning. I dont think "pressure" really has any meaning at that scale, either.

Heh...I never understood singularities. All I know is that it has something to do with black holes and it makes time meaningless or something. But still, you get my point.

And the_Danarchist, there is no way to know. Except to travel to the center of the univers (where is that?) and then go back in time and find out.

What the Hell? Know what? That the universe is expaning? There is proof that it is. For instance, since scientists have figured out the speed of light, it has actualy INCREASED. I'm not sure of the details or technical explaination, but what this means is that since lightspeed is actualy kind of a percentage of the Universe's size, that means that if a certain percentage of it is growing, then the whole thing is growing.

Man, I really wish I knew the terminology for this stuff. :P

Mystic, fill your eyes with... "Tunnel Vision"

mystic said:

If this 'finite' universe you beleive in doesnt have an outer edge then it is infinite

Things CAN be finite without having any edges. We've explained this extremely clearly, if you really can't comprehend it then you must be one of the dumbest persons to have ever visited this forum.

the_Danarchist said:

What the Hell? Know what? That the universe is expaning? There is proof that it is. For instance, since scientists have figured out the speed of light, it has actualy INCREASED. I'm not sure of the details or technical explaination, but what this means is that since lightspeed is actualy kind of a percentage of the Universe's size, that means that if a certain percentage of it is growing, then the whole thing is growing.

Know how many times the universe has crunched/banged. I figured that if the universe does have these cycles, then the middle must be where it "bangs" from.

deldelda said:

Know how many times the universe has crunched/banged. I figured that if the universe does have these cycles, then the middle must be where it "bangs" from.

Oh, well I dont think anyone could know. And from what Fraggle said, its pretty irrelevant anyway.

There is lot that is still unknown about the universe, and current theories may work up to a point, but are certainly not complete. For instance, the "Big Crunch" theory seems to have lost quite a lot of its support in recent years.

However, if you want to throw out the Big Bang theory, that leaves you with a hell of a lot of weird stuff to explain in some other way. ;)

As fraggle says, anything "before" the Big Bang could have no causal effects afterwards. Based on quantum mechanical principles, at any rate.

Oh, and mystic might be right anyway - sort of. As Hawking pointed out, if you regard i*t (i.e. i multiplied by time) as the fundamental "direction" of time (rather than t, as we experience it), the universe has no beginning or end, and there are no singularities.

[moderator mode]Flaming/trolling about these issues is pretty silly, BTW.[/moderator mode]

the_Danarchist said:

Oh, well I dont think anyone could know. And from what Fraggle said, its pretty irrelevant anyway.

I agree :)

Grazza said:

Oh, and mystic might be right anyway - sort of. As Hawking pointed out, if you regard i*t (i.e. i multiplied by time) as the fundamental "direction" of time (rather than t, as we experience it), the universe has no beginning or end, and there are no singularities.

I am aware of that, but it's definitely not what mystic is talking about.

Fredrik said:

Things CAN be finite without having any edges. We've explained this extremely clearly, if you really can't comprehend it then you must be one of the dumbest persons to have ever visited this forum.

Agreed. It reminds me of the flat earth stories where people thought they could sail off the end of the world if they sailed far enough. Hey guess what mystic, the surface of a sphere is a 2 dimensional area of finite size with no boundary. The surface of a 4-dimensional sphere is a 3 dimensional space of finite size with no boundary.

mystic said:

FRAGGLE: I never said anything about the sky being white, please dont put stupid words in my mouth.

You said yourself earlier in the thread:

The universe is infinite, it has no end, had no beginning, its always been there, it always will be there, constantly changing and evolving

If it has "always been there" and "had no beginning" why is the sky black?

If space is not expanding why is the light from stars red shifted like they're moving away?

Hey deldelda, I never meant you to think I was calling you a plonker, I said it that way because I couldnt be arsed scrolling back to see which idiot posted that.

hey Frederik and all the other 'clever' folk here who think that science and maths are gospel, I know that deep down you know what I said is right so I will ignore the petty minded way you have insulted me. I refuse to drag myself back down to that level.

Another good example of astronomers telling the public lies in an attempt to look clever and hide from stuff they dont understand or can prove.
When folk think they have seen a UFO and report it, its normal for astronomers to dismiss the sighting as probably being venus, they claim venus sometimes moves relatively fast as viewed from earth.
I happen to be a stargazer myself and that stuff about venus moving fast enough to be confused with a UFO is one of the biggest lies I ever heard. You would have to go away and come back a while later to notice any movement and that movement isnt going to be from one horizon to the other (most likely a satelite) and its not going to be moving in a zig zag pattern at speed (most likely a alien craft).

Astronomers are always happy to come out with that lie about venus and its as true to life as their other lies.

I have an idea that whether or not the universe is infinite, it wouldn't really matter. If the universe contracts back in on itself and forms a new fireball and then explodes, what of it? It'll take another good 10 billion years or whatever, and by that time, more likely than not, humanity will no longer exist.
And if the universe is finite, what of that? It's not like we can actually travel to the very edge of the observable universe, and look over it out into nothingness.

mystic said:

hey Frederik and all the other 'clever' folk here who think that science and maths are gospel, I know that deep down you know what I said is right

I dont know that it "is right". You make your assertations with no rational basis and refuse to back them up.

so I will ignore the petty minded way you have insulted me. I refuse to drag myself back down to that level.

I havent insulted you and yet in this thread you have called me "stupid", "blinkered" and inferred I am an "idiot" simply because I disagree with your argument. And you still havent answered my questions.

mystic: Scientists are generally far more open minded than you seem to think. If a new theory fits the facts better than what has gone before, then it tends to be accepted pretty quickly, especially if it predicts some unexpected effects that turn out to fit in with observations.

And they do tend to remember that even when supported by a mass of evidence, theories are just that: theories.

DooMBoy: improved theories about the laws of physics are often useful in many ways.

you ask for the impossible. There is no way to prove the universe is infinite if your mind cant accept that its not my problem. And no I never directly called you those things I merely stated that if someone (not you specifically, Im actually a fraggle fan) cant accept a certain thing blah, blah, blah.

As someone else above (a moderator I think) already said, its silly for us to keep arguing about stuff that cant ever be proved, it just keeps going in increasingly nasty minded circles. I know that suits some folk with a certain mindset but I cant be arsed playing those silly insult games, it gets old really fast. I cant prove that with some clever maths so maybe its not true.

Hey Mystic, I bet you used to watch Sightings a lot.

Grazza said:

DooMBoy: improved theories about the laws of physics are often useful in many ways.

Heh yeah. I learned that from playing Alpha Centauri. Though how anyone could make a singularity gun is beyond me...but what the Hell.

I dunno what 'sightings' is, Im assuming its a TV show. I dont really watch TV unless theres a good soccer match on or one of a small number of shows I like (south park, red dwarf) or a good movie.

I have seen a lot of unusual objects in the sky at night and even a few during the day. Its a waste of time trying to report such things.