Holy War!

I worship The Lady. Her Apple Corps are strong!

Grimm said:
Go to Hell. You trying to piss people off?

Heh, this reminds me of a Family Guy quote:
"Oh my God! I'm so offended! I'm going to do something about this."
"Mike, there's not really anything you can do."
"Wow, you're right. I guess I'm just going to have to develop a sense of humor, huh?"

Cyb: Very good post. You covered a few of the things I skimmed over in my initial post, but much more in-depth. :P

Cyb said:

and now is usually the point where people say 'well if there's no reason for you to not lie, rape, steal and cheat, what's stopping you?' and I answer with 'I find it sad that the only thing keeping you from that is fear of the wrath of god'

Heh...thats always been one of my thoughts. Its also why religious people kind of scare me.

the_Danarchist said:

Anyway, theres something I've been reading about Jesus that I've found to be quite interesting. There is an old theory that he did not die on the cross. The first bit of evidence is that it takes a long time to die when crucified. They nail your hands and feet to the cross and the effect is this: gravity pulls your body downwards which soffocates you, so you instinctively pull yourself back up which pulls at your feet which is extremely painful so you slump back down and the process begins again. This goes on for several days until you die of shock, bloodloss, or starvation. So anyway, in the Bible Jesus is only on the cross for a short while, not really long enough to kill him. So the theory goes that Mary Magdalen or some of the Apostles paid the Roman guard so that they could sneak him away. So Jesus rested for a while, and after three days he felt well enough to walk around and thats how the whole ressurection thing got started.

After this he either ended up succoming to his wounds or he decided to stop the whole Messiah thing and go off and live with his girl in peace. However it went, Mary ended up having Jesus's child and moving to France. And thus started the Merovignian family. The Knights Templar were set up to guard this dynasty of divine blood and allegedly had records to prove the heredity. Eventualy, the Catholics (who decided they didn't want any rivals when they had to covert the godless masses) decided to slaughter all other Cristian sects including the Knights Templar. Of course, popular legend says survivors of the Templar later went off to form the Freemasons or other secret societies.

I think thats a cooler ending to Jesus's story than the one in the Bible. :)

Cooler? More like DEEPLY FUCKING DISTURBING. If something like that were true, do you know what that would mean? It would mean that the "bluebloods" actually DO have some insane, but founded-in-reality reason to claim that they are better than everyone else. I tell you, we have to fucking kill them all before they take the power back. "Divine right" can't be allowed to exist, not even remnants of it, not even the remote chance that it may be reasserted. What happens when we fall in a really deep economic slump worldwide, or a war kills nearly all of us, and some guy comes up claiming to be related to Jesus himself -- and presents irrefutable (genetic, historic, phorensic) proof? Humanity, in its weak and desperate state, will follow him, and he will fuck us in as many directions and positions as he would like.

Ultraviolet said:

Cooler? More like DEEPLY FUCKING DISTURBING. If something like that were true, do you know what that would mean? It would mean that the "bluebloods" actually DO have some insane, but founded-in-reality reason to claim that they are better than everyone else. I tell you, we have to fucking kill them all before they take the power back. "Divine right" can't be allowed to exist, not even remnants of it, not even the remote chance that it may be reasserted. What happens when we fall in a really deep economic slump worldwide, or a war kills nearly all of us, and some guy comes up claiming to be related to Jesus himself -- and presents irrefutable (genetic, historic, phorensic) proof? Humanity, in its weak and desperate state, will follow him, and he will fuck us in as many directions and positions as he would like.

how exactly would _legitimate_ divine right be a bad thing?

læmænt said:

how exactly would _legitimate_ divine right be a bad thing?

Well, I wouldn't consider it "legitimate" even if the relation could be proved. Right to rule isn't genetic, it's contractual, and I would NEVER consent. Most people, though, in those circumstances, would.

i sure would, the son of a god is certainly likely to do better than some batshit crazy militant motherfucker elected by the retarded majority

læmænt said:

how exactly would _legitimate_ divine right be a bad thing?

"Didn't everybody have some noble purpose in mind for their own actions? Wasn't everybody, in their own eyes, good?...
...How can I tell the good people from the bad, if the bad people all have some way of convincing themselves that they're trying to do good even though they're doing something terrible? And the good people can belive that they're actually very bad even though they're doing something good?" -Orson Scott Card; Xenocide

the_Danarchist said:

Anyway, theres something I've been reading about Jesus that I've found to be quite interesting. There is an old theory that he did not die on the cross. The first bit of evidence is that it takes a long time to die when crucified. They nail your hands and feet to the cross and the effect is this: gravity pulls your body downwards which soffocates you, so you instinctively pull yourself back up which pulls at your feet which is extremely painful so you slump back down and the process begins again. This goes on for several days until you die of shock, bloodloss, or starvation.

I learned that they used to break their legs to stop that.

fodders said:

I learned that they used to break their legs to stop that.

Well, Dan didn't say anything about legs. If one can carry one's own cross, then one can certainly have the shoulder strength to pull one's self up, especially in a situation where it's your life at stake.

You see, the thing I don't get, cyb, is why believeing in God seems to bother you so much. You seem to have no trouble following Christian ideals, so why do you have such issues with God? If you're wrong, and He doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost for you. But if he does exist and you were wrong, it won't be fun when you meet up with him in the afterlife. But if you followed him . . . Honestly, I don't understand why'd you'd want the pessimistic view. Considering that fear of Hell might really be all you need, and that you may not even need true faith, as long as you honor him . . . but whatever, I'm rambling. Your choice man. Also, you might want to try capatalizing words at the begiinning of sentances. Makes long-ass posts easier to read.

What I'm saying is that this stance basicaly says "God says you are all his children and can go to heaven if you are good, but women cant be in any position of leadership. They should get in the kitchan and shut up." My point is that it is pretty hypocritical (and this happens throughout Christianity) that they preach love and equality for anyone, and yet they have a definate bigotry for anyone who isnt a European male. (And yes, I am a feminist if you haven't noticed already).

Yeh, thet is pretty hypocritical. That message isn't nearly as strong as you're putting it though . . . calm down, man.

As for the Nazi thing, that is very well documented. In fact, I think I remember THE POPE HIMSELF coming out and apoligising for the Church doing it. It was in the news rather recently. Thats another thing that annoys me. In the last couple decades the Catholic church has been issuing apology after apology about every little wrong they did, and connonizing non-Europeans and such. Its such an obvious bid for more converts since their old ways of telling what's what and that all non-members are going to hell and so forth dont work anymore. They don't have near as much political power as they once did and they need to be PC for the modern era, so they're doing all this highly-public stuff to gain sympathy.

El evidenco . . . is el missingo . . . Sorry, I'd like some sources, man. Not thatt I think you're lying, I just like to get things "straight form the horse's mouth". Also, I doubt thet's what the Church is doing, because, really why would the Church care about political correctness? It's not really all that great to be a preist. You go to seminary school for like 10 years, take a vow of celibacy, and spend the rest of your life pounding out Masses. Even the people higher don't really have anything. No one cares about or listens to the Church anymore. This thread is obvious proof of that. What, do you think that the Vatican takes a big swag of the money and, what, buys expensive cars with it, or whatever? Sure, I don't think the Church would mind getting some new converts, but I doubt it goes as deep as you say.

Also, on your theory, you forget that Jesus was extensively tortured before he was crucified. Also, he had to die early, otherwise his legs would have been borken, and the prophecy of "not a bone shall be broken" wouldn't have been fulfilled. (Of course, that probably doesn't matter to you, or maybe you think they just *said* that he came down early.) Fianally, going back to one of reasons why Jesus must have ressurrected, Jesus's disciples were just average joe fishermen, and pretty cowardly ones at that. As soon as Jesus was taken, they all ran away with their tails between their legs. It took Jesus ressurrecting for them to have the courage to proclaim the Good News. Lastly, eleven of the Twelve Apostles were killed, and tortured beforehand. (John was tortured, but wasn't killed.) Now, all any of them had to do was say, "Okay, I admit it, the Jesus story was all fake," and they would have lived. If it was all part of a conspiracy, do you really think that they would die for something they knew was false? It would make no sense, and if you can't see that, you're blind. Or really close-minded and clutchy, or something.

One final note. This, "OMG MAry Magdaline was a whore so Jesus musta been bangin heree!!!!11111" line of thought is quite childish, and really getting old. Drop it, please.

You see, there's these things called names, or more properly user names here on the forums, which allow us to identify each speaker. I mean, I can identify my own quotes, but it doesn't help the clarity and contextualization of text if we quote multiple people without identifying them, does it?

Oh, jeez, I forgot who posted this. I think I explained why teh names don't show up on my quotes a little while back. If you really wanna know, why don't you go look? Also, if a lack of names in quotes give you an anuorism, don't read my posts. Simple as that.

Grimm said:

You see, the thing I don't get, cyb, is why believeing in God seems to bother you so much. You seem to have no trouble following Christian ideals, so why do you have such issues with God? If you're wrong, and He doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost for you. But if he does exist and you were wrong, it won't be fun when you meet up with him in the afterlife. But if you followed him . . . Honestly, I don't understand why'd you'd want the pessimistic view. Considering that fear of Hell might really be all you need, and that you may not even need true faith, as long as you honor him . . .

read

Grimm said:
You see, the thing I don't get, cyb, is why believeing in God seems to bother you so much. You seem to have no trouble following Christian ideals, so why do you have such issues with God? If you're wrong, and He doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost for you. But if he does exist and you were wrong, it won't be fun when you meet up with him in the afterlife. But if you followed him . . . Honestly, I don't understand why'd you'd want the pessimistic view. Considering that fear of Hell might really be all you need, and that you may not even need true faith, as long as you honor him . . . but whatever, I'm rambling. Your choice man.

Maybe I'm speaking out of line here, but some people just wish to live in their own way without having anyone else telling them what's right and wrong. Maybe a person lives the same way as a religion teaches, but in doing so they are living that way because it's the way they desire to live that way, not because some person or some book told them that that's how they should live. If you ask me, believing in something just as a 'just in case' isn't really the best reason to do so. Neither is "so I won't go to Hell" or "I'll just kind of believe". But that's aside from the point, I suppose. What I really mean to say is that you may not understand why a person believes or disbelieves in one thing or another, and they may not understand you in that light as well, but the best thing to do is just to let people be as they will rather than suggesting they do something different. But then again, that may be out of line as well.

Religions have their part to play in humanity, now weither that part is overly embelished is totally up to those persons who believe in it.

No religion is evil unless its sole purpouse is suffering and hate, or unless the religion become overloaded with right wingers, who hence spew deadly waves of stupid across every ear in this plane of existence.

Every religion has it share of loose screws, with the possible exception of buddism.. I seriously can not see a monk running through an airport screaming "happy buddha smiles kindly on you" with 3 lbs of explosives straped to his waist.

When a religion steps out of it orginal bounds and starts spidering its own beliefs across the general mass of humanity, not through peaceful means but through the right wing extremeist means, then a religion needs to have a serious overhaul.

Its not the entire beliefs fault that such things can happen, but its their followers and hence they should deal with it..

I see the jokers outside near the street camping out at our local Wal-Mart, living out of their trailers and trucks for the sole purpose of telling me and people like me that my lifestyle is wrong and they are right.

People who use negative means of expressing their belief's goals need to have a steel pole firmly slammed against their kneecaps.

You dont mess with someone else's belief, that is the very core of their person and makes them an idividual. This is the one thing that drives me completely batshit is that for the most part, muslim extremists and christain extremest have the sole goal understand that the other person is wrong no matter what and there for both sides resort to violent acts, the terrorists use bombings, and the western world decides that it wants to be the gobal police force. Both sides are driven by black and white ideal driven beliefs, both sides see each other as wrong and refuse to see what this is doing to the people in the middle.

Religion has its place, and it is a very place factor in most people's life, but they simply let it bloat to the point of blocking their own logic and rationality.. so there for they are the sole problem of 99% of this world's issues and should receive a good kneecap relocating.

I dont expect anyone to take my words to heart, but I wish for everyone to atleast understand what I'm getting at..

Hate is caused by iggnorance and arrogance, and those two problems have let to more death, pain, and hate than anything else ever conceived.

The left wing has it's share of kooks as well. PETA, ELF, the nuts at Seattle a few years ago, NAMBLA, Ted Kaczynski, Communists, Jesse Jackson, etc.

Ichor said:

The left wing has it's share of kooks as well. PETA, ELF, the nuts at Seattle a few years ago, NAMBLA, Ted Kaczynski, Communists, Jesse Jackson, etc.

Yes, but you cant look at it as a 2 sided matter, there is a gray area..

Also, only way to deal with Jesse Jackson is to pull back and nuke it from orbit, only way to be sure.

I am going to stop reading this thread because it is hurting my frail Christian brain.

My family believes in Buddhism. But I don't view it as a religion. In its purest form, Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion, before Gautama's preaching got shrouded in mysticism when it spreaded into China.

Ramen, cheap, easy to make, and tastes good.. worship it.

Dark Fox said:

Hate is caused by iggnorance and arrogance, and those two problems have let to more death, pain, and hate than anything else ever conceived.

What's interesting is there have been more people killed in the name of god than for any other reason...2+2=?

Dark Fox said:

Ramen, cheap, easy to make, and tastes good.. worship it.

And much like the body of Christ, it also tastes great with grape juice.

TeamKill said:

What's interesting is there have been more people killed in the name of god than for any other reason...2+2=?

Yes, sad but true.

and I noticed by typing skills have been severly affected by my most recent ego (acid) trip.. apologizes to all.

and 2+2= 2+++

Grimm said:

You see, the thing I don't get, cyb, is why believeing in God seems to bother you so much. You seem to have no trouble following Christian ideals, so why do you have such issues with God?

I don't have issues with god, I have issues with basing my life decisions on something created so people could make themselvs feel more important since relative to the universe we're pretty insignifigant. As I stated, I believed in god for some time, but only because I hadn't really questioned his existance. Once I did I came to the realizations I posted.

Grimm said:

If you're wrong, and He doesn't exist, then oh well, nothing lost for you. But if he does exist and you were wrong, it won't be fun when you meet up with him in the afterlife. But if you followed him . . . Honestly, I don't understand why'd you'd want the pessimistic view.

I find the concept of an all-seeing being watching over everyone very silly, so much so that I don't believe he exists and I don't think I'm wrong. FOr instance, what happens to other animals after they die? Do they go to their own heaven, or do they use ours, or do they just die and once they die they're dead. What makes people special? Yes we obviously have a much higher plane of intelligence, the ability to reason and think and all that, but that's about it. Do animals have souls? It's too inconsistant and many times you're forced to believe things 'just because', though under the guise that you have faith.

For instance I've talked to people who refuse to believe that god did not create the universe, that refuse to believe the universe always existed, yet they apparently have no problems believing god always existed. Why? Because.

Grimm said:

Considering that fear of Hell might really be all you need, and that you may not even need true faith, as long as you honor him . . . but whatever, I'm rambling. Your choice man. Also, you might want to try capatalizing words at the begiinning of sentances. Makes long-ass posts easier to read.

Here's another question. If indeed there is a god, how are you so sure he's christian. Maybe you've been following the wrong religion. Perhaps when you die and get to heaven god will see you and say "sorry, the jews were right, have fun in hell for eternity".

of course judism doesn't believe in hell in any form, but you get my point.

dualy noted on the caps thing ;)

Cyb said:
and that brings me to organized religion. I don't like organized religion because it's a buisness. not to say I think buisness is bad, but organized religion offers no product for your time or money except blind promises. on top of that every single religion things every other religion is wrong (with a few exceptions) and a good deal of the time religion is a major reason for stupid shit that happens around the globe. it's like sports team rilvaries only on a global scale and people have a much blinder loyalty and many are willing to die for it. dangerous.

Actually, I kinda have more respect for the institutions of religion than their specific and generally unoriginal abstract concepts (God and whatnot, as you pointed out they are generally rather amusingly silly.) I mean, sure, like politics and business, religion is full of crap, but what does things and what really exists is religion, and I don't think it can exist without being institutionalized. Of course this isn't something that can be easily discussed openly for those involved in religion can't really deal with such questions... lest their faith be shaken and they feel hurt. Well, maybe some hypocrites could very well understand the matter, and those might just be the ones that know best what they're into, unfortunately.

As for what "product" religion sells, it's a form of organization on a lower level than politics. It might be somewhat demeaning in many circumstances, but in the end, it's an actual material human activity of sorts. It's something.

Grimm said:
Oh, jeez, I forgot who posted this. I think I explained why teh names don't show up on my quotes a little while back. If you really wanna know, why don't you go look? Also, if a lack of names in quotes give you an anuorism, don't read my posts. Simple as that.

Hey there, weren't you the one talking about an open mind somewhere? Yet you are the one who suddenly and spitefully spews out curses at someone who open mindedly posts his ideas on the forum and you are the one that pretends a user is having some sort of (misspelled) circulatory disorder after he generously and eloquently points out how badly your posts read?

Anyway, I'm capable of quoting multiple people and retaining the user names; what am I, better than you?

after reading that somethingawful 'teen forums' thing, i'm firmly convinced that if there is a god, he fucking hates us.

or unless the religion become overloaded with right wingers, who hence spew deadly waves of stupid across every ear in this plane of existence.

but through the right wing extremeist means

I think you and I might have a different understanding of right-wing. Care to elaborate? :)

I find the concept of an all-seeing being watching over everyone very silly, so much so that I don't believe he exists and I don't think I'm wrong. FOr instance, what happens to other animals after they die? Do they go to their own heaven, or do they use ours, or do they just die and once they die they're dead. What makes people special? Yes we obviously have a much higher plane of intelligence, the ability to reason and think and all that, but that's about it. Do animals have souls? It's too inconsistant and many times you're forced to believe things 'just because', though under the guise that you have faith.

Honestly, I'm not sure that I understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that little things these hurt your beliefs? I was gonna put something here, but what you said below messed up line of thinking . . .

For instance I've talked to people who refuse to believe that god did not create the universe, that refuse to believe the universe always existed, yet they apparently have no problems believing god always existed. Why? Because.

Heh, good point. I was gonna come up with something witty but your example has screwed up my thinking now. Dammit . . .

Here's another question. If indeed there is a god, how are you so sure he's christian. Maybe you've been following the wrong religion. Perhaps when you die and get to heaven god will see you and say "sorry, the jews were right, have fun in hell for eternity".

Christianity is the most concrete religion. The Judeo-Christian tradition/religion has the most archeological evidence to support it. Besides, teh Jewish Yahweh is teh Christian God, so I doubt he'd care. Allah might get pretty mad at me for diefying prophets, so I could get in trouble there.

Hey there, weren't you the one talking about an open mind somewhere? Yet you are the one who suddenly and spitefully spews out curses at someone who open mindedly posts his ideas on the forum and you are the one that pretends a user is having some sort of (misspelled) circulatory disorder after he generously and eloquently points out how badly your posts read?

Anyway, I'm capable of quoting multiple people and retaining the user names; what am I, better than you?

As far as I'm concerned, that was an inflamtory post designed to piss Christians off. Maybe it wasn't, but it read that way. Also, calm the Hell down. You're getting worked up over stupid and pointless shit.

Also, could whoever posted that link summarize it? Too long-winded, too many big words, and I'm quite tired.

Finally, I don't understand why you people care so much if someone believes in God. You seem to get all worked up about it, like it's a bad thing. Even if there is no God, false hope is still hope. It's much more fun to live believeing you'll be ressurected than it is to live thinking that when you die, you die. Be happy that they found something inspiring, and not hateful.

sorry, that last post was a little weird, that's what happens when I make posts at 3:30am heh

anyway what I was getting at with the whole 'do animals have souls?' thing was the inconsistancy of things like god and the afterlife. If an animal dying means it's dead, and that's it (ie no heaven or hell for it), then why do people get special treatment? What makes us different? It's still a little weird, I'll admit, but it's the best I can put it into words.

finally:

Grimm said:
Finally, I don't understand why you people care so much if someone believes in God. You seem to get all worked up about it, like it's a bad thing. Even if there is no God, false hope is still hope. It's much more fun to live believeing you'll be ressurected than it is to live thinking that when you die, you die. Be happy that they found something inspiring, and not hateful.

Not sure if you're refering to me in the term 'you people' but I don't particularly care if someone believes in god or not. I already said that I don't think believeing in god is a bad thing (not for everyone of course), as it gives hope etc, it's the whole believing without questioning thing that irks me, however I never push my beliefs on anyone (or even mention that I don't believe in god) unless I'm asked (as is implied by this thread).

in the end I suppose it really doesn't matter of course, when you die you die, and it doesn't matter what you believe at that point, but before then I'll believe what makes sense to me

Dark Fox said:

Ramen, cheap, easy to make, and tastes good.. worship it.

I prefer Varelse.

Grimm said:
As far as I'm concerned, that was an inflamtory post designed to piss Christians off. Maybe it wasn't, but it read that way. Also, calm the Hell down. You're getting worked up over stupid and pointless shit.

A) Look at the first post for what this thread is about. Am I supposed to be extremely careful with every word I say here in case someone is offended or am I supposed to be as openly frank as possible, if not even also intelligently aggressive, as opposed to either narrowminded and flamy or timid and reserved?

B) Calm down what? I'm not the one using heated words and exclamations of damnation in my posts here.

C) Observe the things you say, how you extend what I say and draw conclusions; about a supposed aneurism, interpreting my sentences in ways that are evidently not obvious and mostly refer to extensions of your beliefs that I do not share, and calling the subjects that interest me stupid shit. Where does that come from, your Christian upbringing?

Finally, I don't understand why you people care so much if someone believes in God. You seem to get all worked up about it, like it's a bad thing. Even if there is no God, false hope is still hope.

And lies are still lies.

As to how much people really care or not, recall the nature of the thread: They are supposed to kill God if they are convinced he is a lie or an enemy.

Grimm said:

It's much more fun to live believeing you'll be ressurected than it is to live thinking that when you die, you die. Be happy that they found something inspiring, and not hateful.

Yeah, only if your life is so utterly crappy all you've got to look forward to is the next one. Besides, fun and resurrection don't really walk hand in hand, since everything remotely fun = sin. You don't want your people out having a party when they could be toiling in the fields for profit. Religion boils down to sin, and sin is nothing but a method of control.

And I'm not talking about the halfassed religion that everyone on this board practices, I'm talking about the hardcore fire and brimstone shit. I at least respect that because when someone believes in God enough to flagellate themselves daily and drive nails through their hands to simulate the wounds of the Stigmata you know that they really mean business, that their religion is about more than just selfishly assuring they live forever. Jesus was a pussy, his big score was "God loves us" as opposed to "God smites us for laughs." now the reward of heaven has gotten to the point where religion itself is utterly pointless, as long as you repent on your deathbed, Bling Bling one ticket to the pearly gates. It's the religious equivalent of AOL cds.

Modern Christians wouldn't know the meaning of sacrifice if it nailed them to a cross and pissed in their faces.

In short, your religion and God are utterly neutered, spent, worthless. And that is why I laugh at you.






On another subject, look up the Knights Templar, the Holy Grail, the Merovingians. Very interesting, and makes me finally appreciate Julian's ex-nickname. Very clever, sir. Sly wit salutes you!