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GreyGhost
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Fraggle said:
Saw this this morning on BBC news:
That might explain why I have trouble holding my head straight. :-)
Old Post 06-17-08 11:46 #
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Evilalien4
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I find it interesting that people have a problem with calling the union between same sex couples "marriage". The word, like every other word in the dictionary changes meaning over time. In 1297 marriage was . . .

"When two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions, they are required to swear that they will remain in that excited, abnormal, and exhausting condition until death do them part." [G.B. Shaw]!!

According to encyclopedic sourses, marriage is a "socially sanctioned union that reproduces the family (an ever changing structure)", which "is usually heterosexual and entails exclusive rights and duties of sexual performance."

Now, if someone married just get a green card and didn´t embark upon the expectations set out in dictionary terms, you wouldn´t not call it marriage - or would you?

I dont see why we can´t call it marriage? I celebrate christmas but not christ - should i call it something else?
Old Post 06-17-08 13:47 #
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Richo Rosai
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fraggle said:
EDIT: Saw this this morning on BBC news:


Interesting. But you'll still never convince or corner the religious objectors and morals-shovers. Once this is proven they'll just say "so it's not a choice, but it's still a challenge god has given the homos which they have to overcome".
Old Post 06-17-08 14:19 #
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Use3D
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Butts said:

i still think its a persons choice to be gay though, nothing will ever change my quote, "worthless opinion".


You seem to be missing one crucial point in your thick-headed argument...who in their right fucking mind would choose to be gay? Who would choose to be outcast, isolated, looked upon in disgust, have rights taken away that EVERY other person has, in some countries people are killed or institutionalized for being what they are.

You think people choose this??? You think I can sit here right now and choose to be straight, walk up to my family and say 'Hey guys I like tits now, guess you can talk to me again'. I would give anything to be like every other person, often I wish I could just wake up and be someone else. Not going to happen. This is how I am, and I can't change it. I just have to make the best of it, watch what I say and do around people, watch as people like you find 'justification' for the way I am. You make me sick.
Old Post 06-17-08 16:50 #
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Danarchy
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It's kind of interesting how we view marriage these days. These days, everyone gets married in some sort of wedding ceremony, even if it's just a legal thing in a court. Looking back to 150 years ago, almost NO ONE got married that way. The majority was from "common law marriage", where if a man and a woman lived together for a certain amount of time, they were legally considered married. Weddings were for the very rich to show off to the common people how much they could afford (and in the case of nobility to establish who was an who wasn't a legitimate heir). That's how it was going all the way back to the beginning of the Dark Ages at least (I'm not sure how marriage worked in the ancient civilizations). These days common law marriage is illegal. Kind of funny how stuff has changed.

Anyway, more on topic, I think I agree with what Creaphis said about there being two kinds of marriage. It just makes more sense that way.

Also, here's an interesting theory...perhaps homosexuality is a natural function to curb overpopulation. Something to prevent the mass starvation that usually occurs when there is too much of a species. Just a theory though...
Old Post 06-17-08 17:21 #
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fraggle
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Richo Rosai said:


Interesting. But you'll still never convince or corner the religious objectors and morals-shovers. Once this is proven they'll just say "so it's not a choice, but it's still a challenge god has given the homos which they have to overcome".
Oh, definitely. You'd be more productive banging your head against a wall than trying to argue with one of those morons, just like if you tried to convince them that Evolution is not a "lie invented by Satan" or the world is more than 6000 years old. My reply was intended for Butts, though, and his argument is not a religious one.
Old Post 06-17-08 17:28 #
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Butts
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the reason why i think its a choice is because a person can choose whether or not they want to be open about it or not. the way they are is just the way they are, but stifling emotions is possible. who in their right fucking mind chooses to be gay? gay people do. Tchaikovsky was gay, but he married and had children. he stifled his true feelings to be "normal" in society.

use3d, im not attacking gay people in any way.

fraggle, you said that i chose to be straight and i do have control over i feel attracted to -- i am choosing to be straight right now and i find myself attracted to the opposite gender, but i do have complete control on who i find attractive or not.

interesting theory, dan.
Old Post 06-17-08 18:02 #
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Death-Destiny
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Use3D is correct. He did not choose to be gay any more than I choose not to have homosexual preferences. It's just the way we are, whether we like it or not. People don't decide when to feel attracted to someone else... they just are. When a gay person chooses to marry a person of the other gender, they are not choosing to be strait. They still would not feel attracted to their marriage partner (any more than a straight person marrying someone of the same gender.) They are simply choosing to ignore their tendencies for the sake of not being criticized by the world.

To me, this seems just like the way people have treated racial minorities throughout history. They take away their rights and isolate them just because they look differently. I can't remember where, but I've heard a quote somewhere to the effect of "people are afraid of that which they don't understand." The same is true, IMO, for non-straight people. I have friends that aren't the same race as me, and I'm glad of it. Where I live, most people feel the same way. I also have non-straight friends and I'm proud of that too. Yet, those around me do not feel the same way about that. I think that sometime soon, straight people will realize that they are simply repressing a minority and will eventually accept homosexual people like they accept anyone else who is different. I think allowing homosexual marriages is a good step in helping everyone realize that homosexual people are just regular people like straight people are.

Except maybe for some of the religious. I hope I'm mistaken, but I believe there are some religious Holy Books that claim that homosexuality is "an abomination." *rolls eyes* I doubt they will ever be swayed and will always use that to oppress people.
Old Post 06-17-08 18:38 #
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KennyJC
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Butts said:
the reason why i think its a choice is because a person can choose whether or not they want to be open about it or not. the way they are is just the way they are, but stifling emotions is possible. who in their right fucking mind chooses to be gay? gay people do. Tchaikovsky was gay, but he married and had children. he stifled his true feelings to be "normal" in society.


So you think that even though they are gay from birth, they should choose to live a lie and deceive someone of the opposite sex to get married just because it's the done thing? Or worse still, should gay people be alone for the rest of their life? Is homosexuality such a horrible thing that gay people should not persue their true personalities?

Two consenting adults should be able to live however they want so long as it is within the law... and yes, the law should be changed to allow gay couples all the rights straight couples have. If stupid religious clubs don't want to include poofters, then that's up to them. But in the eyes of society at large, haven't we learned anything throughout our long history of ignorance and descrimination?
Old Post 06-17-08 19:07 #
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Scuba Steve


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Butts said:
use3d, im not attacking gay people in any way.

Maybe not intentionally, but you are. Let's try this...

"Black people are from African and are inherently less able to learn because of their history in a less developed world. I'm not attacking blacks in any way."

Maybe I actually think this (I don't) but without intending to... I've insulted blacks. The same for gays... you can think it's a choice... but by doing that you're inadvertently insulting them.
Old Post 06-17-08 19:19 #
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Bashe
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Paging Fisk to this thread...

There shouldn't be anything wrong with gay marriage. It's simple as that. "OMGz dere NOT da SAEM ssex!!!!!!!!1`1`" so fucking what? If two human beings who love each other want to get married, you should let them do it no matter what, regardless of what some fucking book or document said somewhere. It's not right that people can't do that wherever they want, because I know a few friends who would really enjoy that right.

I'm for it. It will make a lot of people happy in CA.
Old Post 06-17-08 20:08 #
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POTGIESSER
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Haloless0320 said:
I'd have to say I'm cool with gay marriage and all but I'm more for the continuation of the Human race.
The earth in it's current state isn't designed to support 6.7 Billion. This is with "Gays naturally occuring as population control theorem". There will still be plenty of overpopulous with or without gays getting married. They already act as population control with or without being married so I fail to see the logic in your statement.

Secondly with the way science is today, the human race could still survive if it were entirely composed of gays and lesbians. If they instituted a global genetic material bank and breeding program for couples that did want a child. Would never happen, but plausible in some alternate universe if gays did rule the world. I'll now make conspiracy buffs paranoid by saying this is the NWO's agenda for fun. Lol.
Old Post 06-17-08 20:24 #
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JohnnyRancid
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I think the biggest problem with gay marriage is that for the longest time, there have been people who view religious marriage and legal marriage as the same thing. I know I have, but now that there are gay marriages I can clearly see the difference, and I think it would be smart if someone (who can reach people on a nationwide scale) clarify the differences and reccomend that the two terms be seperated.
Old Post 06-17-08 20:56 #
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ler
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POTGIESSER said:
The earth in it's current state isn't designed to support 6.7 Billion. This is with "Gays naturally occuring as population control theorem". There will still be plenty of overpopulous with or without gays getting married. They already act as population control with or without being married so I fail to see the logic in your statement.

Secondly with the way science is today, the human race could still survive if it were entirely composed of gays and lesbians. If they instituted a global genetic material bank and breeding program for couples that did want a child. Would never happen, but plausible in some alternate universe if gays did rule the world. I'll now make conspiracy buffs paranoid by saying this is the NWO's agenda for fun. Lol.


I think he's saying he's straight.
Old Post 06-17-08 21:33 #
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DooMAD
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Welcome to the modern day human race, California. We can only hope that religion lets go of the dark ages and catches up at some point.
Old Post 06-17-08 21:36 #
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Bank
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Butts said:
the reason why i think its a choice is because a person can choose whether or not they want to be open about it or not. the way they are is just the way they are, but stifling emotions is possible. who in their right fucking mind chooses to be gay? gay people do. Tchaikovsky was gay, but he married and had children. he stifled his true feelings to be "normal" in society.


Um, you're right, I chose to be openly gay, but how does that relate to my alleged "choosing" to be homosexual in the first place? I think you're mixing up psychology/physiology with sociology.

There are plenty of people who don't come out and act straight just because if they were to reveal their sexuality it would be not only damning to them socially or professionally in the area or culture in which they live but might even endanger them physically due to that culture/area's views. Being that I'm given the right to be gay in this country I have deep sympathy for those people, who have existed everywhere since the genesis of time.

The fact is that gay people have existed in humanity forever, and now after women, religions, and other races have acquired the freedom and rights that were kept from them in the past I find it difficult to believe the homosexuals of this country and the world are not to be allowed the same.
Old Post 06-17-08 21:54 #
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myk
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Creaphis said:
Marriage was initially a religious action, and the problem is essentially that it has been made into a legal action as well, through various laws relating to marriage. I've long thought that the best solution to the gay marriage problem would be to separate the terms and practices of "legal marriage" and "religious marriage from each other. Here's how this would work in terms of legislation:
They are separated, unless one lives in a religious state. Besides, initially, marriage was a familial or tribal action that predates the concept of religion.
Old Post 06-17-08 22:52 #
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Butts
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why does it seem like every fucking person on here thinks im against gay people/marriage? i never fucking said ONCE that i was. quit trying to manipulate my words.
Old Post 06-17-08 23:18 #
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Bank
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Butts said:
it shouldnt be called marriage though, because marriage is between two people of opposite gender.

think about this: gayness is a choice, its not genetic. if gayness was genetic or whatever, it would have been eliminated from the gene pool, as gay people cant breed.


Sounds like you're against both in that quote.
Old Post 06-17-08 23:21 #
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Technician
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Butts said:
why does it seem like every fucking person on here thinks im against gay people/marriage? i never fucking said ONCE that i was. quit trying to manipulate my words.

What's that? You're againster gay marriage!
Old Post 06-17-08 23:43 #
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Butts
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Bank, you just manipulated my words, you only interpreted what i said in a way in which you could use it against me. i personally think a term such as legal union/partnership or something of the sort should be used. however, it does not affect my life one way or another, as im not gay. the first post was simply something i heard once and thought it was a thought provoking question (and it was). there are homosexual members of my own family and all of us love them. in fact, one man has had a partner for 27 years now, its nothing new. i do live in california as well. sorry if i sound so god damn contradictory, anything typed on the internet can be interpreted in many different ways, as there is no tone of voice to hint sarcasm, seriousness, etc. or anything like that. i cant articulate properly exactly what i mean through a keyboard without some thought and preparation, whereas when i talk i know exactly what to say and how to say it.
Old Post 06-18-08 01:26 #
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GreyGhost
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Butts said:
i personally think a term such as legal union/partnership or something of the sort should be used.
Marriage - The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.

How about "spousal relationship"?
Old Post 06-18-08 08:36 #
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fraggle
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Butts said:
the reason why i think its a choice is because a person can choose whether or not they want to be open about it or not. the way they are is just the way they are, but stifling emotions is possible. who in their right fucking mind chooses to be gay? gay people do. Tchaikovsky was gay, but he married and had children. he stifled his true feelings to be "normal" in society.
Put bluntly: Why wouldn't they be open about it? Why should anyone have to pretend to be someone that they aren't? Tchaikovsky did what he did because he lived in a society where homosexuality was a taboo; that isn't (as much) the case in our modern society, and I for one think that is a good thing. Do you?

Plus, you're contradicting yourself. You're correct that, even today, homosexuality still has an element of taboo to it, and being gay can only make your life more difficult; I doubt that almost anyone would choose to be gay. However, I also think that most homosexuals would probably find the alternative that you present, ie. of stifling their emotions, pretending to be straight and living their life as a lie, to be worse. As you say yourself: who in their right mind would choose to be gay? The only answer is that gays do not choose who they are attracted to. Besides, I hardly think that stifling/repressing your feelings is the same as "choosing who you're attracted to".

I doubt very much that you really can "choose" who you find attractive. Are you seriously saying that if you wanted to (never mind why), you could make yourself be attracted to other men?
Old Post 06-18-08 09:31 #
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pilottobombadier
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We've had here in Canada for awhile. I think it should be legalised. Why should straight people be the only ones suffering? :P
Old Post 06-18-08 13:06 #
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Use3D
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fraggle said:

However, I also think that most homosexuals would probably find the alternative that you present, ie. of stifling their emotions, pretending to be straight and living their life as a lie, to be worse.


Yes exactly.

Butts said:
why does it seem like every fucking person on here thinks im against gay people/marriage?


My bad, clearly you don't have a problem with gay people, as long as they pretend they aren't gay and don't horn in on wholesome straight activities like getting married. I didn't choose to be gay, but I do choose not to live my life as a lie just to make you and your 'normal' society comfortable.
Old Post 06-18-08 16:41 #
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myk
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GreyGhost said:
Marriage - The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
You're using an outdated dictionary :p
Old Post 06-18-08 17:56 #
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Butts
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i was retorting to someones previous comment about who wants to be gay...

use3d, i never said that normal society didnt involve gay people, i was simply saying that tchaikovsky (do you even know who he is?) was gay but lived his life a lie. i never said gay people have to pretend to be straight, i dont care one way or another what gay people do, its not my life. i never said anything that gay people cant get married.

no one will ever be able to convince me that im wrong either.
Old Post 06-18-08 18:05 #
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DooMAD
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Butts said:
i personally think a term such as legal union/partnership or something of the sort should be used.
GreyGhost said:
Marriage - The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.

How about "spousal relationship"?

Britain has been using the term "civil partnership", but I don't see why religious people get all pissy about this, aside from the fact that they're exceedingly arrogant and think their beliefs apply to everyone whether they like it or not.

If you don't want to marry someone of the same gender, then by all means don't, but there's no way anyone should be dictating what gay marriage should be called based on religious teachings that not everyone shares.
Old Post 06-18-08 18:09 #
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rf`
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Death-Destiny said:
Except maybe for some of the religious. I hope I'm mistaken, but I believe there are some religious Holy Books that claim that homosexuality is "an abomination." *rolls eyes* I doubt they will ever be swayed and will always use that to oppress people.

May or may not be the word of God (or a form thereof), but all of the holy books were written by men, who have been proven time and again to be flawed.
Old Post 06-18-08 18:09 #
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Danarchy
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Speaking of gay, I went and saw a musical in the Capitol Hill district of Seattle on Sunday. Never saw so many gay people in my life. It was FABULOUS. Even a couple in the group I went with was gay. Of course, it helps that the musical had a subplot about being gay in it. Gay.

/offtopic
Old Post 06-18-08 18:34 #
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