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exp(x)
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Shaikoten said:
Hi, I just rode on a coach bus today and I didn't feel like my life was in much danger.

Terrorist!

08-03-08 05:27 #

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myk
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Tango said:
That would have been awesome if the rest of the people on the bus saved that guy.

I doubt that was reasonably possible. By the description given, he was more or less dead by the time people really understood what was going on. Doing something like grappling with a bulky psychotic or psychopathic guy with a huge knife in close quarters surrounded by vulnerable people (including children, elders, &c) is risky if not plain stupid. The story says they did try to save the kid once people were safe, and they also apparently surrounded the killer and sabotaged his attempt to escape with the bus.

I think that people who say "why didn't the losers save him?" at this point need to step down from their superhero wonderland.

08-03-08 10:07 #

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alexz721
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I know it's wishful thinking. I'd like to think I would have tried, but the fact is, I don't know I'd rush a 6 foot guy on a narrow aisle. Maybe I would. Who knows. It would really depend on how close I was sitting at the time, and if I could catch the guy off guard. According to most of the accounts I read, he was facing the back of the bus totally focused on stabbing his victim.

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08-03-08 11:31 #

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Janderson
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myk said:
I think that people who say "why didn't the losers save him?" at this point need to step down from their superhero wonderland.

Haha, shaddappa-your-face! That wasn't the point of my post. I never said I'd have saved him. I merely find it disturbing that we as humans lack a sense of selfless commitment nowadays, is all.

08-03-08 12:33 #

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Creaphis
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Janderson said:
Haha, shaddappa-your-face! That wasn't the point of my post. I never said I'd have saved him. I merely find it disturbing that we as humans lack a sense of selfless commitment nowadays, is all.

That's no surprise. It would have been an evolutionary disadvantage.

08-03-08 15:47 #

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Death-Destiny
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If the attacker was wielding a 25.5 cm butcher knife like pictured below, I doubt most people would help either unless they pretty much had a gun and didn't need to endanger their own lives to assist.
http://edge3.dealsdirect.net/images/products/5028/1/product1_5028.jpg
It would actually probably depend on where I'm sitting (if I was behind the attacker, perhaps I could surprise him?), how strong the attacker looks, and whether my sane seatmate offers to help me or not. I would help if I thought my chances where good enough as opposed to asking to be killed as well. I actually think strangers just need to communicate better. A bus full of people could overpower a single insane man if they cooperated and didn't just watch in horror. But that'd be a counter-intuitive thing for humans to do, which reminds me of this.

I actually read a psychology study about this type of scenario once. I believe it said this phenomenon is based on conformity. Since no one else is helping for whatever reason, either logical or selfish, then no one else will feel compelled to help either because they will naturally assume that one of the many other people will step up to the plate. This study advised that the best thing to do if you get attacked out in the open is to single someone out and ask for there help (e.g. "Hey you with the Disney World shirt... HELP ME!!!")
Then instead of conforming to the group, this person would have to make a choice whether to refuse to help you, and hopefully with you removing the ambiguity in the situation, their morals would suggest that they help you. At least, that's what I read. I'd feel pretty bad, though, if someone begged me to save their life and I was too cowardly to help out.

08-03-08 17:32 #

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Creaphis
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Death-Destiny said:
I actually read a psychology study about this type of scenario once. I believe it said this phenomenon is based on conformity. Since no one else is helping for whatever reason, either logical or selfish, then no one else will feel compelled to help either because they will naturally assume that one of the many other people will step up to the plate. This study advised that the best thing to do if you get attacked out in the open is to single someone out and ask for there help (e.g. "Hey you with the Disney World shirt... HELP ME!!!")
Then instead of conforming to the group, this person would have to make a choice whether to refuse to help you, and hopefully with you removing the ambiguity in the situation, their morals would suggest that they help you. At least, that's what I read. I'd feel pretty bad, though, if someone begged me to save their life and I was too cowardly to help out.

Correct. This is known as "diffusion of responsibility." If many people are around, then no one person considers it as their job to help.

08-03-08 17:59 #

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Janderson
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Creaphis said:

That's no surprise. It would have been an evolutionary disadvantage.

That's not how it should be!

/resumes Superman pose

08-03-08 18:15 #

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L�t
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Seems to be a new trend now.

08-03-08 22:05 #

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Death-Destiny
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Damn. That's really sad. All the promise and beauty of a human life lost to the meaningless bloodlust of insanity. The world has too many psychos for my liking. =(

08-03-08 22:38 #

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HWGuy
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Death-Destiny said:
I actually read a psychology study about this type of scenario once.

I take it you've heard of Kitty Genovese?

08-03-08 22:50 #

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K!r4
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Hey wake up, XXth century has passed, we know what humans beings can do.

08-03-08 22:52 #

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Death-Destiny
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HWGuy said:
I take it you've heard of Kitty Genovese?

If memory serves, she was the one who got raped and stabbed to death in the middle of some park in broad daylight and everyone just went about their business as usual without even calling the police. And sadly, it appears as though that is human nature as well. I hope I never get assaulted by someone with an excessively dangerous weapon, since it seems I'd have to fend for myself. =(

08-03-08 23:04 #

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alexz721
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It actually happened at nighttime and it was outside of an apartment complex. Most people were not aware her life was in danger, they just thought she was hurt, as no one observed the full incident.

Still pretty horrendous that no one helped her, especially since her assaulter ran away in between attacks.

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08-03-08 23:11 #

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Tango
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Man all that stuff is so horrible. I hope that if I ever see something like that I do something about it. I'd be so disappointed with myself if I just stood there/pretended like nothing was happening.

08-04-08 04:13 #

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POTGIESSER
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Saw this on the news. Quite ugly. Most of the passengers were asleep when the stabbing began. The victim aside from being decapitated, had about 50-60 knife wounds. It is kinda sad that there was nobody selfless enough to attempt to save the poor guy getting knifed. Then again I've heard more than enough people talk big about what they'd have done were they on the bus.

However when spontaneously experiencing such a gruesome reality you'd likely be quite frightened. Suppose that guy decided to fight off the attacker. If he failed, that would leave a bus of people in a deep sleep vulnerable to the attacker before they realize what's happening. The reality of fighting someone with a knife is that you're going to get cut trying to disarm them. No one was willing to risk their own flesh.

08-04-08 06:07 #

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Danarchy
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I actually read up on Kitty Genovese, and basically the whole thing was exaggerated by the newspapers. In reality there were maybe 6 witnesses and most of it happened out of sight. There were one or two people that heard her screaming but didn't do anything because they thought it was just someone having a tussle or something.

08-04-08 18:30 #

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Haloless0320
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Cops should have drug the guy out into the middle of the street and cut his fucking head off with the same knife.People like that don't deserve to live.

Edit:

Danarchy said:
I actually read up on Kitty Genovese, and basically the whole thing was exaggerated by the newspapers. In reality there were maybe 6 witnesses and most of it happened out of sight. There were one or two people that heard her screaming but didn't do anything because they thought it was just someone having a tussle or something.

I heard about that through boondock saints.I thought it was just a story they had put in there that didnt hold any truth.

08-04-08 18:57 #

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CODOR
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POTGIESSER said:
It is kinda sad that there was nobody selfless enough to attempt to save the poor guy getting knifed.

I think the problem was that no one was awake enough to save the guy. By the time anyone knew what was going on, he was already meatloaf...

It sounds like some people had enough wits about them to make sure that everyone else got off the bus safely, though:

"It looked kind of like a scuffle or an argument, you know, and then somebody's, like, 'Knife! Knife! Run!' so I was running up the alleyway, slapping people telling them to get going, move, get off the bus. I got pushed over, some lady got pushed over, I was just making sure everybody was OK, and we all got off the bus," said Olmstead

08-04-08 19:51 #

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Creaphis
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Haloless0320 said:
Cops should have drug the guy out into the middle of the street and cut his fucking head off with the same knife.People like that don't deserve to live.

Yes, some that live deserve death, but some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

(Quoting Gandalf may be fairly weak, but I couldn't help myself.)

08-04-08 20:09 #

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Haloless0320
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Creaphis said:

Yes, some that live deserve death, but some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

(Quoting Gandalf may be fairly weak, but I couldn't help myself.)

Would rather take the chance and let him saw another guy's head off with a butcher knife?The Judicial system is flawed.He'll get incarcerated and be out in 10 to 15 years and do it again.The punishments should fit the crimes.

08-04-08 20:29 #

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myk
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Creaphis said:
(Quoting Gandalf may be fairly weak, but I couldn't help myself.)

It's a pretty cool quote, though. I wonder if it's based on some classic source.

08-04-08 21:05 #

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AndrewB
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Haloless0320 said:

Would rather take the chance and let him saw another guy's head off with a butcher knife?The Judicial system is flawed.He'll get incarcerated and be out in 10 to 15 years and do it again.The punishments should fit the crimes.

You are an idiot.

08-04-08 21:16 #

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Creaphis
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Haloless0320 said:

Would rather take the chance and let him saw another guy's head off with a butcher knife?The Judicial system is flawed.He'll get incarcerated and be out in 10 to 15 years and do it again.The punishments should fit the crimes.

This was not an action with a criminal motive, but an uncontrollable impulse of a damaged mind. We have yet to see the results of the killer's psychological evaluation, but it's likely that he'll be institutionalized for the remainder of his years, where he'll be no danger to anyone, or he'll get the treatment and medication he needs to reach the same low level of malfunction at which we all operate.

Now, if this had been a planned, first-degree murder, there are still a huge number of practical reasons why capital punishment doesn't work, and a huge number of philosophical reasons why it is hypocritical or just plain wrong. I don't want to get into all that right now, but I would recommend borrowing "Dead Man Walking" by Sister Helen Prejean from your local library.

myk said:
It's a pretty cool quote, though. I wonder if it's based on some classic source.

It could be, I really don't know. But, something that adds to the coolness of the quote is the fact that Tolkien's morality is usually black and white to the utmost. And, here he appears to take a stance against capital punishment. I admire that.

08-04-08 21:28 #

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Technician
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For once I agree with Andrew.

08-04-08 21:44 #

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exp(x)
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Technician said:
For once I agree with Andrew.

Seconded, but considering Haloless0320's comment, it's not that surprising.

08-04-08 23:27 #

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GreyGhost
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Creaphis said:

Yes, some that live deserve death, but some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

(Quoting Gandalf may be fairly weak, but I couldn't help myself.)

The quote in full- "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

Looks like Tolkien doesn't agree with Haloless0320 either. To call for the extrajudicial killing of the offender in what can only be described as an act of revenge is dehumanising. You cannot treat a fellow human being - regardless of their faults - like a dangerous animal after the event without stripping away some of your own humanity in the precess.

08-05-08 11:39 #

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Danarchy
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Haloless0320 said:

Would rather take the chance and let him saw another guy's head off with a butcher knife?The Judicial system is flawed.He'll get incarcerated and be out in 10 to 15 years and do it again.The punishments should fit the crimes.

Yeah, screw the justice system and due process. Let's just drag all criminals out into the street and shoot them. Vigilante justice is the best!

Creaphis said:
I don't want to get into all that right now, but I would recommend borrowing "Dead Man Walking" by Sister Helen Prejean from your local library.

I never read the book, but I loved the movie. It made me cry harder than just about anything else. I've always been against capital punishment, but that movie really clenched it for me.

08-05-08 18:24 #

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Haloless0320
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GreyGhost said:
The quote in full- "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

Looks like Tolkien doesn't agree with Haloless0320 either. To call for the extrajudicial killing of the offender in what can only be described as an act of revenge is dehumanising. You cannot treat a fellow human being - regardless of their faults - like a dangerous animal after the event without stripping away some of your own humanity in the precess.

Yeah,now that you explain it like that I see where youre coming from.It was just kinda shocking to hear about this.I rode greyhound all the time back in highschool but I never had the feeling someone was gonna completely eviscerate me.

In this case I could see that maybe my idea's for a proper punishment were a bit draconic.So I do retract that opinion.But I don't retract my opinion on the punishment of Criminals who are aware of the crimes they commit.For example,you arrest a child molester...he goes to jail serves his time and then turns around and molests another child after being freed from jail...so here's my quote for you.
"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."-Karl Marx

08-05-08 21:32 #

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AndrewB
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As for child molesters, I'm all but convinced that they're born with a desire to sexually invade kids, and it's a desire that the vast majority of us don't have to be inconvenienced with. Recent scientific research supports the theory that it develops while in the womb. If this is true, I think the ultimate solution would be inventing a drug that cures pedophilia when taken by a pregnant mother.

Of course, that might open the door to religious fanatics wanting to invent a drug to cure homosexuality in the womb, but that's another jar of crap.

08-05-08 23:17 #

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Doomworld Forums > Misc. > Everything Else > Man stabs and decapitates fellow passenger on Greyhound bus

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