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GhostlyDeath
Forum Retard

Posts: 782
Registered: 08-05

Don't they really only care if you upload and not download? In the case I heard (when read on Yahoo), they said that she torrented the stuff and sent it to others and sharing her own measly song library.

The music industry is going to destroy themselves because of this. Nobody wants to go to the store and buy CDs really anymore, they all want MP3s for their fabled iPods. iTunes also doesn't sell every song either.

Another thing is that some artists don't give a damn if people are sharing their music because that's more popularity for them.

They might as well disallow radio stations from streaming music because you can record the music when they play it and keep it forever, for free!

06-23-09 05:13 #

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Nomad
Senior Member

Posts: 1508
Registered: 04-04

I like how Lars Ulrich always claimed that he was pissed off about music filesharing because it meant that the smaller, upcoming bands wouldn't get the money they need. But truth be told, it is nothing but more exposure for them. Hence why every single band in existence, including the shitty Bedroom Black Metal solo acts, has a Myspace.

06-23-09 15:51 #

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Khorus
Strife!

Posts: 1113
Registered: 04-05

Danarchy said:

Yeah, I'm never gonna sign to a label, no matter how good my music may get. I read about how their business models work. It's really sick. Very similar to a pyramid scheme. I'll just release all my music for free over the internet, kthx.

Musicians do need to make money too if they intend it to be their career. There are a few ways to do this, but record deals are among the more lucrative and reliable. Music publishing is too (but many would say just as "fucked").

Myself, I'd have no problem signing to a major. I know that I make my music to make myself happy, and to fullfil my own artistic desires. So anything that happens after that isn't something I'm so fussed about. Record companies way of marketing is their own problem as far as I'm concerned. If the majors shoot themselves in the foot, then thats where the independant labels come in to fill a niche (Nettwerk being a great example in handling online distribution imo).

EDIT:

Nomad said:
I like how Lars Ulrich always claimed that he was pissed off about music filesharing because it meant that the smaller, upcoming bands wouldn't get the money they need. But truth be told, it is nothing but more exposure for them. Hence why every single band in existence, including the shitty Bedroom Black Metal solo acts, has a Myspace.

I'm probably more against myspace than the record company situation as a whole.

GhostlyDeath said:
Nobody wants to go to the store and buy CDs really anymore, they all want MP3s for their fabled iPods.

I call bullshit. It's the same situation as online distributed games vs. hard copy, there are always going to be people who enjoy reading the manual or booklet, and having the artwork in their hands

Another thing is that some artists don't give a damn if people are sharing their music because that's more popularity for them.

I'm not sure about that. Artists may take great pleasure in knowing that people are listening and sharing their work. But they need some way of keeping the finances going. Most people will spend the money on work they enjoy though (which is what I do, if it was good enough for me to enjoy then I put it on the "to order" list) but I also know people who just download an entire discography of an artist, pick out a few tracks they liked, then move on to finding the next artist to download.

Last edited by Khorus on 06-23-09 at 16:35

06-23-09 16:21 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

Khorus said:
There are a few ways to do this, but record deals are among the more lucrative and reliable.

Like they say, citation needed. You'll have to examine how many musicians manage to do this. Saying that some bands make good money with this scheme doesn't say much. Additionally, not all record labels offer the same deals, and different genres are tied to different ways of commercializing music. I'm certain many bands live off of shows and make deals with labels mainly to add popularity, rather than strictly to make money. Music is an art of performance, after all; the best way to live out of it is to perform it. The vinyl record era made the commercialization of recorded music a consistent business. Now, however, it's hard to keep up such a model without enforcing it in an authoritarian fashion, with copying being so trivial.

Myself, I'd have no problem signing to a major. I know that I make my music to make myself happy, and to fullfil my own artistic desires. So anything that happens after that isn't something I'm so fussed about. Record companies way of marketing is their own problem as far as I'm concerned. If the majors shoot themselves in the foot, then thats where the independant labels come in to fill a niche (Nettwerk being a great example in handling online distribution imo).

That more or less spells out the ideology behind much of the current music and media business. A tendency to look only to oneself, see the immediate gain of things, but not the bigger picture. It's not surprising if it leaves labels and big companies with greater initiative and negotiating power than musicians or customers.

It's the same situation as online distributed games vs. hard copy, there are always going to be people who enjoy reading the manual or booklet, and having the artwork in their hands

Right, such additional services should be the focus in delivered products, as opposed to a paranoia over cheaper copies. To provide a quality package in an easy and reliable way.

Most people will spend the money on work they enjoy though (which is what I do, if it was good enough for me to enjoy then I put it on the "to order" list)

I do that, but on the other hand I think about what I am financing when I put money into something. I'm bound to look for alternatives to a quality product that causes bad side effects to business and society.

06-23-09 17:00 #

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Khorus
Strife!

Posts: 1113
Registered: 04-05

myk said:
That more or less spells out the ideology behind much of the current music and media business. A tendency to look only to oneself, see the immediate gain of things, but not the bigger picture. It's not surprising it leaves labels and big companies with greater initiative and negotiating power than musicians or customers.

Are you suggesting that I have commercial interest at heart? Or that I have no interest in the marketing business? I'm not a marketing person, I'm a musician. Which is why I let the marketing people do marketing, and I do the music. I choose the path that I think would lead my future in the direction I want. If a company wants me to take a song out of an album because it's not commercial enough I'd tell them to fuck off, not comply. There is a line between artistic integrity and eating from bins.

Ofcourse not all bands who send a demo are going to get a deal. But if the record fails, it's often the label who takes the fall. But that can mean they might not continue the bands contract. So they look for another label, and take their past experience with them.

Bands can lose money with live events for awhile, what with renting PA, live engineer etc. But it's a good way to get a local fanbase, and then when you get more popularity you get better gigs etc.

Last edited by Khorus on 06-23-09 at 17:16

06-23-09 17:07 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

The way things work is that a certain business model has a certain ideological imprint behind it, that determines how it works. In this commercial model where relatively few businesses predominate in the market, there's a "divide and rule" tendency where only the head of that business, the companies and their lobbied associations, have considerable power. You might not have a commercial interest in sight, but what you said fits into the model very well. Actions that only have what you stated in mind further this way of doing business.

06-23-09 17:12 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

Posts: 7949
Registered: 07-06

What's more disturbing is that major companies in general tend to do their maths carefully, rather than blindly following the law "to the full extent". If they had actually determined that "fighting" piracy is a losing proposition, they'd have given up long ago.

If they keep "fighting" it instead, and in particular with this "sue the shit out of a random small fish" strategy, they must have concluded that the benefits outweigh the costs in that case, which means they are convinced they have a winning card. Maybe they won't stop piracy as a whole, but is probably the cheapest (?) way to scare off a lot of people.

Other methods like e.g. anti-piracy ads, sending personal "cease and desist" emails, paying companies like macrovision to design DRM and anti-copy schemes etc. are probably less efficient, more expensive and require more cooperation from ISPs and law enforcement etc., while lashing out on a single user picked from a public torrent is much easier and makes more media noise, which is what they ultimately want.

It's sad, but it's not entirely different than what e.g. policemen do in a riot: instead of going head-to-head with organized and armed protesters/rioters in the middle of the street, they lash out in packs on single, isolated protesters (or anybody that happened to find himself/herself too close to them). In this way, they don't risk facing opponents who can fight back and hurt them as badly as they can, and most importantly, they get the message acrross that they are super-bad and not to be fucked with. Sure, hardcore protesters won't be stopped by such a scare-tactic, but casual ones will be discouraged to go against those "bad muthafuckas".

__________________
Ranked #1 in google for FORCED and PAINFUL! Ranked #3 for Chocolate Shotgun!

Last edited by Maes on 06-23-09 at 17:31

06-23-09 17:25 #

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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!

Posts: 15760
Registered: 01-01

Khorus said:

Musicians do need to make money too if they intend it to be their career. There are a few ways to do this, but record deals are among the more lucrative and reliable. Music publishing is too (but many would say just as "fucked").

Myself, I'd have no problem signing to a major. I know that I make my music to make myself happy, and to fullfil my own artistic desires. So anything that happens after that isn't something I'm so fussed about. Record companies way of marketing is their own problem as far as I'm concerned. If the majors shoot themselves in the foot, then thats where the independant labels come in to fill a niche (Nettwerk being a great example in handling online distribution imo).

I'm not sure if you've done much research into this. Their business model is pretty weasley. First, the talent scout (who usually seems like someone in "the scene" comes around and says "hey I'm from a major label, we might want to sign you". Then he gives them some papers on the spot and says "here, sign this, it just says that you're interested". Unfortunately those papers are a preliminary contract that says that you can't sign to another label, record, or anything like that, usually indefinitely. Otherwise, they'll sue your ass and can legally do so.

Then when you eventually do sign with them, they give you instruments, recording time, etc. Oh how nice, record company, thank you so much! Unfortunately, you're going to have to pay them back for all of that. After divvying up all the money they promise you (your small percentage) you're lucky to have a few thousand dollars. How are you going to make more money now? Well the record company still has you on contract. If you did good (and since the money you made was in the thousands, you probably did) they'll give you more recording time, new instruments, etc. Of course, you're going to have to pay that back as well. Eventually you either get ditched by the record company and end up penniless, or you'll be one of the lucky few who end up with amazing popularity.

Basically, signing with a record company is a gamble on becoming a rock star. And it's a very, very long shot.

I call bullshit. It's the same situation as online distributed games vs. hard copy, there are always going to be people who enjoy reading the manual or booklet, and having the artwork in their hands

I'll have to agree with you there. I have hundreds of albums on my computer that I don't own in physical form, but that's basically my to-buy list for whenever I have money. And trust me, when I have money I buy CDs. I've well over 100 as it is.

I'm not sure about that. Artists may take great pleasure in knowing that people are listening and sharing their work. But they need some way of keeping the finances going. Most people will spend the money on work they enjoy though (which is what I do, if it was good enough for me to enjoy then I put it on the "to order" list) but I also know people who just download an entire discography of an artist, pick out a few tracks they liked, then move on to finding the next artist to download.

I gave up the idea of ever making money doing music not long after graduating high school. It's a very unrealistic goal and you have as much chance of making money off of it as you do being struck by lightning. I love making music, and first and foremost, I'd want the ability to retain sole rights over it until I die, and one of those rights would be allowing anyone to listen to it without fear of prosecution. Call me an anarchist if you will, but I think one of the fundamentals of art is allowing anyone free reign over experiencing it.

That being said, if someone approached me and wanted me to do music for their video game or movie, I'd gladly do it and allow them to do with it as they please. I guess it's the fact that I'm contributing to someone else's work, and that it would be something adapted to their work as opposed to something I pulled out of my own imagination and soul.

06-23-09 20:11 #

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Khorus
Strife!

Posts: 1113
Registered: 04-05

Danarchy said:
I'm not sure if you've done much research into this. Their business model is pretty weasley. First, the talent scout (who usually seems like someone in "the scene" comes around and says "hey I'm from a major label, we might want to sign you". Then he gives them some papers on the spot and says "here, sign this, it just says that you're interested". Unfortunately those papers are a preliminary contract that says that you can't sign to another label, record, or anything like that, usually indefinitely. Otherwise, they'll sue your ass and can legally do so.

Then when you eventually do sign with them, they give you instruments, recording time, etc. Oh how nice, record company, thank you so much! Unfortunately, you're going to have to pay them back for all of that. After divvying up all the money they promise you (your small percentage) you're lucky to have a few thousand dollars. How are you going to make more money now? Well the record company still has you on contract. If you did good (and since the money you made was in the thousands, you probably did) they'll give you more recording time, new instruments, etc. Of course, you're going to have to pay that back as well. Eventually you either get ditched by the record company and end up penniless, or you'll be one of the lucky few who end up with amazing popularity.

Basically, signing with a record company is a gamble on becoming a rock star. And it's a very, very long shot.

I've been doing alot of research on not so much on how a label does its work, but on how to approach them. I'm nearly at the stage of sending out demos (nearly finished an album). If that all fails, then I'll go to publishing. That fails, I'll go to live gigs. That fails I try stage one again etc. Or hell, start my own label where I publish my own shit. Persistence and a lot of work is the key to making money from music.

Regarding recording time, gear etc. times have certainly changed there. Home recording gear is at a proffessional level now, and affordable too. My entire studio has cost me about $3500 AU so far (new synth and audio interface coming soon will add $1500) and with the gear I have I can do near anything. You could spend about $1000 AU and you'd be able to record a traditional rock band's output well with some knowledge.

I love making music, and first and foremost, I'd want the ability to retain sole rights over it until I die, and one of those rights would be allowing anyone to listen to it without fear of prosecution. Call me an anarchist if you will, but I think one of the fundamentals of art is allowing anyone free reign over experiencing it.

Nettwerk (you know, skinny puppy's old label) agrees with you. Good labels are out there. And they should be celerbrated.

Anyway, sorry for the derail.

06-23-09 20:35 #

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GhostlyDeath
Forum Retard

Posts: 782
Registered: 08-05

You could work for a company and be a musician for them (games?) then your music would be heard and you'd get paid per hour!

06-24-09 05:31 #

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GreyGhost
a ghost... only grey

Posts: 5185
Registered: 01-08

Khorus said:

Musicians do need to make money too if they intend it to be their career. There are a few ways to do this, but record deals are among the more lucrative and reliable.

Heh - I remember the contracts Sony/BMG offered Australian Idol winners, for five albums, with the artists agreeing to indemnify the record company for losses up to $1 Million and Sony/BMG could tear up the contract whenever they liked.

If a company wants me to take a song out of an album because it's not commercial enough I'd tell them to fuck off, not comply. There is a line between artistic integrity and eating from bins.

Check the contract - you've probably already signed away your intellectual property rights, so if they decide to remove one of THEIR songs from THEIR album, they'll do so without seeking the approval of glorified day-labour like yourself.

06-24-09 08:02 #

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Khorus
Strife!

Posts: 1113
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Oh, I'm not signed or anything yet. But yes, you should get advice from an entertainment lawyer before signing a contract to be aware of any loop-holes.

heh idol.

06-24-09 08:25 #

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Danarchy
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!

Posts: 15760
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Yeah, I know there are a few good labels out there and ways to circumvent bad contracts, but it just seems that it's more trouble than it's worth.

Personally, I'm going to concentrate on a career in culinary arts whenever I can get my shit together. Music is just a hobby, really.

06-25-09 18:44 #

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gggmork
Banned

Posts: 1790
Registered: 06-07

Given that an average individual doesn't likely have 2 million dollars, what would the punishment ultimately result in? IOU's, or like seinfeld where they're sentenced to be a butler? Yes, I'm ignorant.

06-25-09 22:13 #

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udderdude
Senior Member

Posts: 1342
Registered: 04-02

gggmork said:
Given that an average individual doesn't likely have 2 million dollars, what would the punishment ultimately result in? IOU's, or like seinfeld where they're sentenced to be a butler? Yes, I'm ignorant.

25% of all wages earned, everything you own is theirs when you die.

Basically you're an indentured servant to a fucked up corporation for life.

06-25-09 22:31 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 3953
Registered: 10-05

udderdude said:

25% of all wages earned, everything you own is theirs when you die.

Basically you're an indentured servant to a fucked up corporation for life.

Good lord. That's absolutely criminal.

06-26-09 01:53 #

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SnowblindFatal
Green Marine

Posts: 32
Registered: 03-09

Yeah, you might as well start living it up, making a kill list of the people who wronged you and go down in flames. Or make money (illegally if you don't have a good enough job) until you get enough money to get yourself a new identity. At least those are the options that come to my mind first. B)

06-28-09 00:11 #

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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler

Posts: 4434
Registered: 03-02

Torn said:
They are never be able to stop piratency. It is worthless for them even trying...

Although today it seems they just scored what could become a decisive victory...

http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/3...for-77-million/

And not only that they have also secured the next-generation distribution protocol to go with the next generation internet...can we take bets on BitTorrent's lifespan?

07-01-09 16:24 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

Posts: 7949
Registered: 07-06

Torn said::
They are never be able to stop piratency. It is worthless for them even trying...

They'd have stopped trying if their costs-benefits analysts deemed it fruitless, but apparently they didn't, and believe they can still "win".

After all, they had given up on home taping long ago (too much backlash from stereo/recorder manufacturers), but this one is different and ongoing. Also there are much greater odds at stake now than with home-dubbed cassettes.

07-01-09 16:39 #

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udderdude
Senior Member

Posts: 1342
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Maes said:

They'd have stopped trying if their costs-benefits analysts deemed it fruitless, but apparently they didn't, and believe they can still "win".

After all, they had given up on home taping long ago (too much backlash from stereo/recorder manufacturers), but this one is different and ongoing. Also there are much greater odds at stake now than with home-dubbed cassettes.

What they probabally realized is they can't win, but they can extort people randomly for more cash. MAFIAA is pretty accurate.

07-01-09 16:44 #

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Scet
Member

Posts: 451
Registered: 05-06

The Ultimate DooMer said:
can we take bets on BitTorrent's lifespan?

Its still got plenty of life left in it. Large tracker and torrent sites have gone down before, another one will show up soon to replace TPB. In the mean time, the smaller trackers will get TPBs traffic. Those users don't just disappear.

07-01-09 16:44 #

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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler

Posts: 4434
Registered: 03-02

It's not so much TPB going down, it's the new protocol getting into the wrong hands that I fear might eventually kill off BT.

07-01-09 17:15 #

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Chilly Willy
Mini-Member

Posts: 91
Registered: 08-08

Maes said:
They'd have stopped trying if their costs-benefits analysts deemed it fruitless, but apparently they didn't, and believe they can still "win".

Companies fight "pirates" because some law firm has convinced their idiot leaders that they're "losing billions" to pirates. Pirates aren't deterred in the least by the company's actions, and the main people hurt are the honest customers. The only ones who "win" are the lawyers and the pirates... and sometimes you can't tell those two apart from their actions.

Remember that bean counters don't run the companies - PHBs do. Some of the most successful computer companies have never bothered to fight piracy... or at best give a token effort. Look at id - the most you've ever had was a CD registration number. They never bothered with any of those anti-piracy protections, their stuff was pirated, and they made money hand over fist. Bill Gates has stated that piracy in other countries was key to Windows building their monopoly in those countries, and likened it to giving out free drugs to get people addicted so that you could later profit off these addicts.

07-02-09 01:44 #

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Technician
Still no custom title

Posts: 5254
Registered: 08-04

This gets even more pathetic. Ah...fuck.

http://www.pollstar.com/blogs/news/.../07/677771.aspx

07-08-09 05:13 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

But U.S. District Judge Michael Davis felt he erred in his instructions to the jury for the first trial and ordered a second trial, which recently resulted in a $1.92 million judgment favoring the recording industry.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were an euphemism for receiving a juicy bribe after the jury made their previous decision :p

07-08-09 08:33 #

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