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Visplane Overflow
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Aliotroph? said:
things


Getting immediately irate about 'the little things' is not as intelligent or effective as you'd believe. Take a look at Russia - They've had more revolutions than I can count, but United States style freedom has not come to their country yet. Considering the Russian people seem to be in a constant state of political-pissed-offedness, you'd think they'd make some progress, right? Hell, Communism-style freedom hasn't even come to Russia yet (or anyone else for that matter).

Anyway, I am not trying to say that turning a blind eye to corruption high up in the government is a good thing - what I was really trying to say was that Americans and westerners in general are very quick to make a under-educated assessment of what they perceive as an 'attack' on their freedom, when they haven't ever felt the taste of disenfranchisement or true political evil.

Really though, I'd like to say that anyone who buys into this paranoid bullshit is probably incapable of thinking for themselves - csonicgo made a great post about this, so no need to add my comments about that. Anyway, before riling yourselves up in a panic, you should take some time to truly understand what it is that's happening, as a voting citizen of your country, it is your responsibility to make informed, educated decisions about your government.

EDIT: Sorry, this was boring.
Old Post 07-05-09 10:40 #
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myk
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The correspondent, or whatever he was, speaks like a retard.

Csonicgo said:
What bribe money? What are you talking about? You're still not telling me what the hell you're ranting about.
It's probably federal plans done in association with states. Hence a "bribe" because it furthers large scale public projects, when what this dude is arguing against is the federal government's ability to gather information to administrate national initiatives and agencies that would also be relatively consistent globally.

The video dude said:
International agencies
Just wait. It's only a matter of time before that turns into "Jews," when he notices people aren't listening.
Old Post 07-05-09 10:51 #
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POTGIESSER
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Are you really that fearful and paranoid about the government being aware that you watch porn and masturbate? NEWSFLASH: They already do. The mark of the beast is a beautiful thing. Let go of your antiquated beliefs. Get with the program.
Old Post 07-05-09 21:42 #
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MRB_Doom
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Hail the New World Order! Now we only need that airborne ebola Eric Pianka wants to release on our asses! Hell on Earth, YES!
Old Post 07-05-09 23:09 #
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Quasar
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Visplane Overflow said:

... what I was really trying to say was that Americans and westerners in general are very quick to make a under-educated assessment of what they perceive as an 'attack' on their freedom, when they haven't ever felt the taste of disenfranchisement or true political evil.

The price of freedom is vigilance. Those that do not watch out for their rights will soon not have them. All the western governments are currently engaging in a slow, creeping powergrab and you'd have to be willingly blind to not acknowledge the dangerous trends. American politics have repeatedly proven to be a slippery slope. Once doors are opened here, they are not closed but rather blown off their hinges.

In the last 40 years free speech has gone from a universal right to something that must be permitted, practiced in restricted areas, and meets with the immediate ire of the authorities, search no longer requires reasonable suspicion in an ever-growing number of circumstances, large property seizures are now permitted in a number of controversial circumstances, wiretapping laws are now irrelevant and mass surveillance by the NSA and FBI are common knowledge, there are now classes of crimes for which one can be imprisoned without charges or trial, executive orders exist that allow the Constitution to be completely suspended for unspecified emergencies - it goes on.

None of these things were ever perceived as compatible with American values or ideas, yet they have gradually creeped into our system and continue to grow on us.

So you know, just a *little* bit of wariness is perhaps warranted, with no end in sight to this constant push against the principles that Western culture was founded on in preference of the nanny state and police state values we see taking shape now.

It's too late to start caring once you have a Stalin in power to leverage the full extent of the powers given to him. Those kind of leaders and the thugs they attract to their ranks have an uncanny way of weeding out their opposition brutally.
Old Post 07-06-09 01:02 #
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Aliotroph?
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Yes, exactly. Therefore I shall continue to be upset at the increasing demand for "papers." Most of this crap done as a response to a few clever terrorists has basically been to start implementing the kind of state the terrorists would love to build for themselves. We don't need that shit.
Old Post 07-06-09 01:48 #
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myk
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Quasar said:
In the last 40 years free speech has gone from a universal right to something that must be permitted, practiced in restricted areas, and meets with the immediate ire of the authorities, search no longer requires reasonable suspicion in an ever-growing number of circumstances, large property seizures are now permitted in a number of controversial circumstances, wiretapping laws are now irrelevant and mass surveillance by the NSA and FBI are common knowledge, there are now classes of crimes for which one can be imprisoned without charges or trial, executive orders exist that allow the Constitution to be completely suspended for unspecified emergencies - it goes on.
The private use of personal information by unaccounted state entities is one thing, some accessible and specific personal information for use by the state is another. With wire-trapping and the like, you are being spied on without knowing it. With a national ID, you're giving out a bit of personal info just like everyone else is, which isn't necessarily misused.

So you know, just a *little* bit of wariness is perhaps warranted, with no end in sight to this constant push against the principles that Western culture was founded on in preference of the nanny state and police state values we see taking shape now.
Intelligent wariness in regard to power and the application of state policy is recommended, but delirious fearmongering just detracts from that. Western culture itself isn't holy. Some of its principles, even related to "freedom" are what have allowed it to grow as an exploitative monster. The state is problematic, but it can also be a public place from where accountability and transparency can be increased. Do you prefer the state to be in inferiority of informational conditions in regard to powerful commercial entities or otherwise foreign intelligence?

It's too late to start caring once you have a Stalin in power to leverage the full extent of the powers given to him. Those kind of leaders and the thugs they attract to their ranks have an uncanny way of weeding out their opposition brutally.
Stalin-like leaders (Stalin was pretty much a fascist within communism) generally grow like fungus when nations become hostile to each other. I'd say it happened to your country recently, and that it isn't happening as much right now, perhaps because people do care and can do some things about it.
Old Post 07-06-09 03:39 #
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GreyGhost
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This is yet another round in the long-running tussle between freedom and security. Unfortunately, they're like two half-full glasses - in order to have more of one you have to settle for less of the other. Like a lot of people I'm not happy with the trend of adopting security measures that treat ordinary, mostly law-abiding citizens as potential terrorists and while I should have little to fear from increased scrutiny of my daily activities, the prospect of being subjected to irregular surveillance in public, needing to carry adequate proof of identity at all times, having my information sources filtered and communications monitored makes me feel insecure. I'd rather have a little more freedom and take my chances with the terrorists.
Old Post 07-06-09 04:18 #
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myk
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GreyGhost said:
This is yet another round in the long-running tussle between freedom and security.
It doesn't look like it. Such documentation may be of use to security intelligence and forces, but it's also got other administrative uses. Assuming it's just a matter of security is part of the simplification and fearmongering, either way. By those who have other reasons to get in the way of such a project, as well as those who might want to install it.
Old Post 07-06-09 05:25 #
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GhostlyDeath
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I think the people who are for this don't watch FOX News.

And yeah, our freedom is going down the drain. Everyone let's the government do whatever the hell they want to now. And with all things, one thing leads to another. The PASS ACT might not be as bad as it sounds but down the line there will be something to compliment it and make it even worse. It's all corruption and hypocracy.
Old Post 07-06-09 05:32 #
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The Ultimate DooMer
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GreyGhost said:
I'd rather have a little more freedom and take my chances with the terrorists.


Terrorism kills a tiny fraction of the people that other violent crimes kill, yet the amount of attention, resources, lawmaking etc. the other crimes receive is a tiny fraction of that receieved by terrorism.

Now why would that be...surely it goes against the whole purpose of law and order, that of protecting people and making them feel safe? Makes no sense from a logical point of view when comparitively few lives would be saved.

Then factor in the religious, geopolitical and power-grabbing arguments from the tinfoilhat brigade...hmm doesn't it start to make sense at that point?
Old Post 07-06-09 10:58 #
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GhostlyDeath
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The Ultimate DooMer said:


Terrorism kills a tiny fraction of the people that other violent crimes kill, yet the amount of attention, resources, lawmaking etc. the other crimes receive is a tiny fraction of that receieved by terrorism.

Now why would that be...surely it goes against the whole purpose of law and order, that of protecting people and making them feel safe? Makes no sense from a logical point of view when comparitively few lives would be saved.

Then factor in the religious, geopolitical and power-grabbing arguments from the tinfoilhat brigade...hmm doesn't it start to make sense at that point?


Someone said that everybody in Switzerland has guns, so there's no crime rate.
Old Post 07-06-09 18:57 #
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POTGIESSER
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Quasar said:

Those that do not watch out for their rights will soon not have them.
You never had rights, only privileges which are revocable at any time. Where were the rights of Japanese which were citizens of North American countries during WWII?

Quasar said:
In the last 40 years free speech has gone from a universal right to something that must be permitted, practiced in restricted areas, and meets with the immediate ire of the authorities, search no longer requires reasonable suspicion in an ever-growing number of circumstances, large property seizures are now permitted in a number of controversial circumstances, wiretapping laws are now irrelevant and mass surveillance by the NSA and FBI are common knowledge, there are now classes of crimes for which one can be imprisoned without charges or trial, executive orders exist that allow the Constitution to be completely suspended for unspecified emergencies - it goes on.
That's merely the reality of discovering what limitations are truly imposed upon you. Few people really test the limitations of their freedom. Therefore, they are free.
Old Post 07-06-09 21:35 #
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Danarchy
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As if anything ever gets passed through congress anymore. Ha!
Old Post 07-07-09 06:23 #
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cybdmn
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GhostlyDeath said:


Someone said that everybody in Switzerland has guns, so there's no crime rate.


Reservists in Switzerland take their submachine gun at home, and many have private guns at home too, thats true. But this is not the reason for their moderate crime rate. They have a somewhat stable economy, with an unemployment rate around 3%. The average income is rather high, so their life standards are really high. And i, who i working often in Switzerland, can say, that the people here threat others mostly respectful.

On a side note: Switzerland have a democracy, where the peoople can really decide, many decisions of their gouvernment must go through a direct voting of the citizens, before they cast in stone.
And here is, as mostly everywhere in europe averyone required to have an ID.

Beware, look how the US gouvernment like thier IDs:
http://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/t...grams_1403.html

This isn't at least the bad news, if you want to know the really bad news, go google after RFID security.
Old Post 07-07-09 14:08 #
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Csonicgo
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Danarchy said:
As if anything ever gets passed through congress anymore. Ha!


Hahaha I love this one. I remember seeing an official document for congress back when my uncle was up there. the week was actually.. this:

code:
Monday: Nothing is scheduled. Tell Artur Davis to stop calling at lunch.
Tuesday: Nothing is scheduled. - Pick up groceries
Wednesday: SEC wants to hold a group dinner. 6 PM.
Thursday: Nothing is scheduled. Go meet Sen. Shelby near Hart Monorail. Watch him hit his head on the doorframe again.
Friday: Independence day! Fireworks! :-) Bring the chips.


GhostlyDeath said:
I think the people who are for this don't watch FOX News.


Aaaaugh it burns it burns ouaaaaaaaaagh
Old Post 07-07-09 18:24 #
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Hellbent
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...and 9/11 is still an inside job.

Last edited by Hellbent on 07-14-09 at 01:20
Old Post 07-14-09 01:12 #
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destx
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Also the government is putting rainbows in your water! (its in an internet video so it must be true hurrp durp)
Old Post 07-14-09 01:33 #
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GreyGhost
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It's only a little fluoride to keep your teeth shiny. Nothing to see here, move along, move along.
Old Post 07-14-09 08:08 #
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Csonicgo
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GreyGhost said:
It's only a little fluoride to keep your teeth shiny. Nothing to see here, move along, move along.


Lol, fluoride in trace amounts is just fine. in fact, the H20 has more of a risk of being a poison.
Old Post 07-14-09 08:13 #
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Visplane Overflow
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Quasar said:
More than is appropriate to quote


People get upset about silly things. You can't say 'fuck' on public television while kids could be watching - an attack on free speech. You can't own anti-tank weaponry; a clear case of the second amendment being shattered. Or maybe you can't shoot your mailman for trespassing on your private land =P Let's get real, people - you can say bad things about the president without risk of disappearing in the night, your government will support you when you're unemployed, you can raise whacked-out conspiracy theories and you can even openly preach opposition to the police force and government that protects you and nobody will toss you into a labour camp for it.

Granted, some things ought to be reformed - there are some stupid rules and regulations, but people have always had the power to change that - if you don't like what your government is doing, elect a different representative.

Furthermore, you'd be crazy to think the government could ever 'take' freedom from Americans, even slowly. People notice - Hell, as we're discussing this, people are being made more and more aware of what goes on higher up. Anyway, no society has ever been impotent against their own government, you can't force someone to conform. Even the Third Reich had an organized resistance undermining Hitler.

Essentially what I'm trying to communicate is that as American citizens, you can afford to relax - there's no need to get irate about everything the government ever does, as there will definitely be a category 5 shitstorm if the government ever did try to strip your rights away. If worse comes to worst, there will be an uprising - there are more citizens than government fatcats, and most of the people already in government jobs do them for the good of the public - not because they want to institute a new world order. Anyway, don't take that too seriously, it's an opinion.

<opinion noted and discarded>
Old Post 07-14-09 08:58 #
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Hellbent
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Visplane Overflow said:
More than is appropriate to quote
If what you say is a valid point, and it may be, it doesn't change the fact that there is undeniable evidence the gov't was responsible for 9/11 and used the 'terrorists' as patsies. Why do you think the gov't needed to setup Gitmo? Anyway, watch the video and consider the evidence presented rather than ignoring the video altogether because the views presented are too ridiculous to take seriously. Regardless of the implications or 'implausibility' of our gov't pulling something like that off, you have to call a spade a spade.
Old Post 07-14-09 12:36 #
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myk
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Hellbent said:
Anyway, watch the video and consider the evidence presented rather than ignoring the video altogether
Evidence? Aside from the fact that the video is not about 9/11 itself, and while it is indeed aimed at the conspiracy theory crowd which generally coincides with private interest proselytes that despise public institutions, the video is pretty much a rant, and not a presentation of evidence.
Old Post 07-14-09 12:59 #
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